Stuff to Ponder...

[The Duke]

I got this from my mom back home in an email and thought i should spread it because it give Republicans a little rhetorical ammunition :guns: . Anyways no flames please... :bartmoon:


There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January...
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.


That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following...



FDR... led us into World War II Germany never attacked us. Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman... finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us.
From 1950--1953, 55000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy..started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson...turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,
an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton... went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.



Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions. In 2 years since terrorists attacked us,



President Bush has. . . . .



liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for! the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina
Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile
sank at Chappaquid****.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!

[senor_k]

Yeah, cuz those inspectors in North Korea are doing such a wonderful job.

[roughrider]

I got this from my mom back home in an email and thought i should spread it because it give Republicans a little rhetorical ammunition :guns: . Anyways no flames please... :bartmoon:


There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January...
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.


That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following...



FDR... led us into World War II Germany never attacked us. Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman... finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us.
From 1950--1953, 55000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy..started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson...turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,
an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton... went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.



Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions. In 2 years since terrorists attacked us,



President Bush has. . . . .



liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for! the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina
Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile
sank at Chappaquid****.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!

Bush has also further spread the flames of american hatred. by going into Iraq he didnt fight terrorism but put gas on the fire. Despite what Bush says, people dont hate us because we are free, they hate us because they view american foreign policy as a policy of colonialization. we are the bad guy in the middle east and will continue to be for generations to come

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

I got this from my mom back home in an email and thought i should spread it because it give Republicans a little rhetorical ammunition :guns: . Anyways no flames please... :bartmoon:


There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January...
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.


That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!

1. if there are so many deaths in detroit, why isnt bush spending money to put more police in america, rather than troops in iraq?

2. Wait... we took Iraq? it seems to me as though we still dont have control of iraq. sure, we marched into baghdad and bush made an empty statement by declaring "mission accomplished", but we still dont have control of the place, by any stretch of the imagination.

[Longest]

Bush has also further spread the flames of american hatred. by going into Iraq he didnt fight terrorism but put gas on the fire. Despite what Bush says, people dont hate us because we are free, they hate us because they view american foreign policy as a policy of colonialization. we are the bad guy in the middle east and will continue to be for generations to come

Because we definiitely seek to colonize all over the world. We have territories all over. Or not. They hate what they view as the Western thought toward freedom and economy.

Dan

[roughrider]

Because we definiitely seek to colonize all over the world. We have territories all over. Or not. They hate what they view as the Western thought toward freedom and economy.

Dan

How sure are you of this? Perhaps the facist governments of these countrys fear the idea of democracy because it is a threat to their power. The people however feel we are embarking in a new age of colonialization (these countrys have expierenced this all before remember). when we go into a country and the first location we secure and guard are oil producing locations. we go in alone, essentially, and overthrow a government against the UN's backing what sort of sign does this sign. whether it is true or not, the average Iraqi does not hate america because we are a democratic republic, they hate us because we are the arrogant *******s putting the will of the world into our hands.

why when I go to europe do I have to say I am canadian to avoid getting spit on? why does the world hate us exclusivly? Answer me these questions.

[TheKOB]

Bush has also further spread the flames of american hatred. by going into Iraq he didnt fight terrorism but put gas on the fire. Despite what Bush says, people dont hate us because we are free, they hate us because they view american foreign policy as a policy of colonialization. we are the bad guy in the middle east and will continue to be for generations to come


Riiiight, with our Kuwaiti and Saudi allies in there with us? With the support and friendly relations with Egypt and the UAB?

doesn't hold water, sorry.

[TheKOB]

How sure are you of this? Perhaps the facist governments of these countrys fear the idea of democracy because it is a threat to their power. The people however feel we are embarking in a new age of colonialization (these countrys have expierenced this all before remember). when we go into a country and the first location we secure and guard are oil producing locations. we go in alone, essentially, and overthrow a government against the UN's backing what sort of sign does this sign. whether it is true or not, the average Iraqi does not hate america because we are a democratic republic, they hate us because we are the arrogant *******s putting the will of the world into our hands.

why when I go to europe do I have to say I am canadian to avoid getting spit on? why does the world hate us exclusivly? Answer me these questions.


totally useless unless you have some sort of proof.

Another wonderful roughrider argument disspelled because of ugly proof. Shame.

[Thrillhouse]

why when I go to europe do I have to say I am canadian to avoid getting spit on? why does the world hate us exclusivly? Answer me these questions.

That's the problem. You'll go to Europe and lie so they'll accept you. I'll go and be proud of being an American and if they spit on me I'll beat the crap out of them.

They hate us because we are the most powerful country in the world and they aren't.

[TheKOB]

why when I go to europe do I have to say I am canadian to avoid getting spit on? why does the world hate us exclusivly? Answer me these questions.

Curiosity killed the KOB I suppose...but when was the last time you had to do that?

My family and people in Ireland got along fine.

[Frndlefire]

Curiosity killed the KOB I suppose...but when was the last time you had to do that?

My family and people in Ireland got along fine. I was never physically spit on I also ran into a lot of angry europeans traveling in France, Germany, Italy, and Switzerland. The thing is, it isnt that they dislike the United States or even americans.They just, generally, dislike our leadership. I never had anyone, spit on me, threaten me or in any way get angery at me, instead I was just asked a lot of questions about Bush and why we do certain things. Bush isn't all that well liked.

[timmy]

Curiosity killed the KOB I suppose...but when was the last time you had to do that?

My family and people in Ireland got along fine.


Catholic or Protestant decent, KOB? And, nevermind, I'm starting a thread on this. Zuhah.

[CharlotteLax1]

2. Wait... we took Iraq? it seems to me as though we still dont have control of iraq. sure, we marched into baghdad and bush made an empty statement by declaring "mission accomplished", but we still dont have control of the place, by any stretch of the imagination.
Then I guess we don't have control over Detroit either?

But then again, the media isn't showing pictures/videos of cars on fire in Detroit.

[LatinBabe]

ok republicans... from this moment on we must never use ketchup again. i figure heinz will spend all the money she has trying to keep the "family" buisness together and kerry can't touch it due to the prenump. haha, there's more than one way to grill a turkey.

[Frndlefire]

there's more than one way to grill a turkey.
You grill a turkey with catsup?

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

Then I guess we don't have control over Detroit either?

But then again, the media isn't showing pictures/videos of cars on fire in Detroit.

exactly, which is why we should worry about what is going on at home first, instead of deciding to spend billions on an unnecessary war overseas

When he said "mission accomplished", that means we took over Iraq, and had defeated the actual formal Iraqi army. Now, we are fighting the terrorists coming from all over, which is a part of the rebuilding proscess. I dont see whats so hard to understand.

And im not saying i feel this way, but if we dont have control of the place, isnt everyone making a pretty quick conclusion that there arent WMDs somewhere?

it's not hard to understand, i was just arguing that because the man said "mission accomplished" and declared victory over the iraqi regime, doesnt mean we have control over iraq.

and, no, we're not... we went in under the pretense that saddam had WMD's. we have found no WMD's from saddam. after all, thats what this war was started for, remember? now, im sure the terroroists in iraq have plenty of wmd's, but they came in after we invaded iraq... thats right, i said invaded. they followed us in... we brought the terrorism problem, as it is today, into iraq.

[Longest]

You grill a turkey with catsup?

Nice one :-)

Dan

[Longest]

and, no, we're not... we went in under the pretense that saddam had WMD's. we have found no WMD's from saddam. after all, thats what this war was started for, remember? now, im sure the terroroists in iraq have plenty of wmd's, but they came in after we invaded iraq... thats right, i said invaded. they followed us in... we brought the terrorism problem, as it is today, into iraq.

This seems like a lot of supposition JJ. Do you have anything approaching news articles or references for this?

Dan

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

what part do you want reference to? it has all been in the news in the past... i thought this stuff was common knowledge... maybe they just dont print this stuff in your conservative news sources though... :agree:

[Longest]

what part do you want reference to? it has all been in the news in the past... i thought this stuff was common knowledge... maybe they just dont print this stuff in your conservative news sources though... :agree:

well I checked the liberal sources but they had nothing approaching your rampant speculation either....

Dan

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

im not tryin to be a jerk, but what part dont you agree with, or believe, rather?

[LatinBabe]

probably wants proof that we brought the terrorists rather than them already being there.

[roughrider]

Riiiight, with our Kuwaiti and Saudi allies in there with us? With the support and friendly relations with Egypt and the UAB?

doesn't hold water, sorry.

How about the Jordanian terrorist group that ambushed and murdered 50 Iraqis and a American. we are allies with jordan are we not? Didnt the ruler of that country go to school in the united states and we have a very open and receptive relationship with them. Our blind support of Isreal and its occupation of Palestine, our unilaterally going to war is further instigating hatred in the arab world. George Bush was partially right when he stood so proudly in his flight suit in front of a mission accomplished bannerand so arrogantly declared that major fighting operations were over. He was right in the sense that organized government iraqi opposition was over. what we face now are gurilla fighters that are getting through the borders from other countrys, bent on killing an american colonial pig. THe population of the arab world is largely young, 50% of the people are under 18. When we invade countrys and, unfortunatly civilians are killed (it is only expected sadly) they see that on Al-Jazeera. When we sanction torture (remember that rumsfeld memo authorizing forced standing to break their wills) and they see that on tv they are mad. We they see the pictures of some butch women doing a thumbs up in front on a naked man with a bag over his head-when they see a man standing in a crucifix position with what looks like electrons on his body they, obviously, get furious. When we invade and protect the oil ministry before anything else, we obviously give the message we are there to colonize Iraq. whether these are exceptions or not, our foreign policy is creating the terrorism. By invading countrys blindly, against the UN, we look bad. we keep taking eye for an eye until no one can see. american foreign policy needs to change if we ever have asperations of winning this so called war on terror.
Any rational person will tell you what I have just told you. we cannot take the offensive because that only adds fuel to the fire of anti-american hatred. dont believe what the canidates tel you either. they do not hate our freedom, they do not hate liberty and happiness or puppies oir whatever lies are told. They hate our arrogance, our colonial nature, our preemptive nature

One last thing I thought was funny. I found this in Rolling Stone. George Bush Sr. went to war to prevent unilateral war, his son did the opposite.

[roughrider]

totally useless unless you have some sort of proof.

Another wonderful roughrider argument disspelled because of ugly proof. Shame.

do you have anything countering it. I have proof, it is my education through life. read a peoples history by howard zinn, the last chapter deals almost exculivly with this (you have to get the most recent edition).

you cannot back your arguments against me. why should anyone believe you? where is your proof of iraqis hating us because we are free.

[TheKOB]

do you have anything countering it. I have proof, it is my education through life. read a peoples history by howard zinn, the last chapter deals almost exculivly with this (you have to get the most recent edition).

you cannot back your arguments against me. why should anyone believe you? where is your proof of iraqis hating us because we are free.


So now someone needs proof to discount your rants that you brought up without proof in the first place? You don't publish stuff that is a known fact....or did you see something in the NY Times about the world being flat. If you're going to make an assertation, then you should back it up. If you can't, then it's a lie. I don't feel the need to disprove it, because you didn't prove it in the first place.

[TheKOB]

How about the Jordanian terrorist group that ambushed and murdered 50 Iraqis and a American. we are allies with jordan are we not? Didnt the ruler of that country go to school in the united states and we have a very open and receptive relationship with them.

Just because the government likes us doesn't mean all of their people do. Osama is Saudi…does that mean the Saudis hate us? Does that mean the Bin Laden family hates us? Nope, it means that the Saudis like us and he’s an outcast in the Bin Laden family.

Our blind support of Isreal and its occupation of Palestine, our unilaterally going to war is further instigating hatred in the arab world. George Bush was partially right when he stood so proudly in his flight suit in front of a mission accomplished banner and so arrogantly declared that major fighting operations were over. He was right in the sense that organized government iraqi opposition was over.

You just admitted Bush was right…..you’re starting to come around. Our blind support for Israel? They went there after getting kicked out of Europe because of that whole holocaust thing…heard of it? They’re also our allies, by the way. We supported them because it was the right thing to do. Practically all of the governments have come around. If your so-called “evidence” is that they’re being attacked by the same terrorist groups that caused 9/11, then that’s a bit shoddy. The case has been made that these organizations are against Islam…how could they be supported by an Islamic state…which is like every country in the Middle East EXCEPT for Israel?

what we face now are gurilla fighters that are getting through the borders from other countrys, bent on killing an american colonial pig. THe population of the arab world is largely young, 50% of the people are under 18. When we invade countrys and, unfortunatly civilians are killed (it is only expected sadly) they see that on Al-Jazeera.

You know who kills civilians? Those guerilla fighters who are bent on killing the “American colonial pig”. How many times have you been watching the news and heard that a bomb went off, or a suicide bomber attacked? How many times has the result been many more Iraqis killed than (if any) Americans? To quote your first sentence…” How about the Jordanian terrorist group that ambushed and murdered 50 Iraqis and a American”

When we sanction torture (remember that rumsfeld memo authorizing forced standing to break their wills) and they see that on tv they are mad. We they see the pictures of some butch women doing a thumbs up in front on a naked man with a bag over his head-when they see a man standing in a crucifix position with what looks like electrons on his body they, obviously, get furious.

What do you want us to do? They’re going through trials…should we kill them, burn their bodies, like THEY do to Americans? I know how it looks. The past can’t be prevented. That would’ve happened if Kerry, Kennedy, or Carter was president. The president doesn’t micro manage. I don’t really know what your argument is here, outside of that it pisses off people. Yeah, I know. It pissed me off too. What’s your point? Any American who’s stomach didn’t turn at those pictures lacks something. You know what else? War isn’t pretty. Did they get enraged at those pictures of charred Americans hanging from a bridge half as much as I was disgusted as what happened to some TERRORISTS in an American prison? Guess what. War is never pretty. But we’re a hell of a lot more compassionate then they are. Not one of those prisoners had to worry about getting his head lopped off because of his nationality. If anything, we were playing on their fears that we’ll do to them what they’d do to us if the situations were reversed. You don’t know who those prisoners were or what they did. They were in prison….probably not for spitting on the sidewalk or chewing gum in class. Also, it was an interrogation, not just for fun (despite the “butch woman”….nice label, by the way). If later in their interrogation, they found out information that prevented an attack, I’m all for it.

When we invade and protect the oil ministry before anything else, we obviously give the message we are there to colonize Iraq. whether these are exceptions or not, our foreign policy is creating the terrorism. By invading countrys blindly, against the UN, we look bad. we keep taking eye for an eye until no one can see. american foreign policy needs to change if we ever have asperations of winning this so called war on terror.
Any rational person will tell you what I have just told you. we cannot take the offensive because that only adds fuel to the fire of anti-american hatred. dont believe what the canidates tel you either. they do not hate our freedom, they do not hate liberty and happiness or puppies oir whatever lies are told. They hate our arrogance, our colonial nature, our preemptive nature.

You know why we protected the oil ministry? Because that’s something Iraq has that they can use. That’s money under their feet they can use to be a non-terrorist state, to grow strong, and to grow in democracy. I haven’t heard any Iraqi that said they thought we were going to colonize Iraq. The only person I have heard say that is some socialist in Washington State.

Invading countries blindly? We tried the UN thing. The UN is by no means the end all be all of the world. France was making money in Iraq against the UN. We should listen to them, right? We look bad? Troops are dying, and the best argument you can come up with is that we look bad? Iraqi’s trying to get to work are being bombed by the same people that blew up the twin towers, and you compare it to a kid wearing a lime green/purple plaid shirt?

You know what will help us with this war on terror? Other countries being attacked. Spain and other countries were cowed into pulling out their troops by foreign terrorists. Russia understands now what terrorism can do to a society. The terrorists are only helping us get allies. Pull a tiger’s tail enough times, and eventually you have to deal with his teeth.

We can’t take the offensive? So what do we do? Sit in our borders and let the Middle east fall to fanatics? You go ahead and do that. You’re foreign policy is an anti-foreign policy. That’s the same way we almost lost WW2. Great plan.

One last thing I thought was funny. I found this in Rolling Stone. George Bush Sr. went to war to prevent unilateral war, his son did the opposite.

Yeah that’s pretty funny. First that you get your arguments from Rolling Stone. I wish I could refute that argument with something from SPIN or “Better Homes and Gardens”….

Bush Sr. didn’t prevent unilateral war…there was already war when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The implication you make is that the current President went to war to cause unilateral war. Terrorists attacking us isn’t exactly what I’d call war. They’re terrorists, not an organized army.

[roughrider]

Just because the government likes us doesn't mean all of their people do. Osama is Saudi…does that mean the Saudis hate us? Does that mean the Bin Laden family hates us? Nope, it means that the Saudis like us and he’s an outcast in the Bin Laden family.



You just admitted Bush was right…..you’re starting to come around. Our blind support for Israel? They went there after getting kicked out of Europe because of that whole holocaust thing…heard of it? They’re also our allies, by the way. We supported them because it was the right thing to do. Practically all of the governments have come around. If your so-called “evidence” is that they’re being attacked by the same terrorist groups that caused 9/11, then that’s a bit shoddy. The case has been made that these organizations are against Islam…how could they be supported by an Islamic state…which is like every country in the Middle East EXCEPT for Israel?



You know who kills civilians? Those guerilla fighters who are bent on killing the “American colonial pig”. How many times have you been watching the news and heard that a bomb went off, or a suicide bomber attacked? How many times has the result been many more Iraqis killed than (if any) Americans? To quote your first sentence…” How about the Jordanian terrorist group that ambushed and murdered 50 Iraqis and a American”



What do you want us to do? They’re going through trials…should we kill them, burn their bodies, like THEY do to Americans? I know how it looks. The past can’t be prevented. That would’ve happened if Kerry, Kennedy, or Carter was president. The president doesn’t micro manage. I don’t really know what your argument is here, outside of that it pisses off people. Yeah, I know. It pissed me off too. What’s your point? Any American who’s stomach didn’t turn at those pictures lacks something. You know what else? War isn’t pretty. Did they get enraged at those pictures of charred Americans hanging from a bridge half as much as I was disgusted as what happened to some TERRORISTS in an American prison? Guess what. War is never pretty. But we’re a hell of a lot more compassionate then they are. Not one of those prisoners had to worry about getting his head lopped off because of his nationality. If anything, we were playing on their fears that we’ll do to them what they’d do to us if the situations were reversed. You don’t know who those prisoners were or what they did. They were in prison….probably not for spitting on the sidewalk or chewing gum in class. Also, it was an interrogation, not just for fun (despite the “butch woman”….nice label, by the way). If later in their interrogation, they found out information that prevented an attack, I’m all for it.

When we invade and protect the oil ministry before anything else, we obviously give the message we are there to colonize Iraq. whether these are exceptions or not, our foreign policy is creating the terrorism. By invading countrys blindly, against the UN, we look bad. we keep taking eye for an eye until no one can see. american foreign policy needs to change if we ever have asperations of winning this so called war on terror.
Any rational person will tell you what I have just told you. we cannot take the offensive because that only adds fuel to the fire of anti-american hatred. dont believe what the canidates tel you either. they do not hate our freedom, they do not hate liberty and happiness or puppies oir whatever lies are told. They hate our arrogance, our colonial nature, our preemptive nature.

You know why we protected the oil ministry? Because that’s something Iraq has that they can use. That’s money under their feet they can use to be a non-terrorist state, to grow strong, and to grow in democracy. I haven’t heard any Iraqi that said they thought we were going to colonize Iraq. The only person I have heard say that is some socialist in Washington State.

Invading countries blindly? We tried the UN thing. The UN is by no means the end all be all of the world. France was making money in Iraq against the UN. We should listen to them, right? We look bad? Troops are dying, and the best argument you can come up with is that we look bad? Iraqi’s trying to get to work are being bombed by the same people that blew up the twin towers, and you compare it to a kid wearing a lime green/purple plaid shirt?

You know what will help us with this war on terror? Other countries being attacked. Spain and other countries were cowed into pulling out their troops by foreign terrorists. Russia understands now what terrorism can do to a society. The terrorists are only helping us get allies. Pull a tiger’s tail enough times, and eventually you have to deal with his teeth.

We can’t take the offensive? So what do we do? Sit in our borders and let the Middle east fall to fanatics? You go ahead and do that. You’re foreign policy is an anti-foreign policy. That’s the same way we almost lost WW2. Great plan.



Yeah that’s pretty funny. First that you get your arguments from Rolling Stone. I wish I could refute that argument with something from SPIN or “Better Homes and Gardens”….

Bush Sr. didn’t prevent unilateral war…there was already war when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The implication you make is that the current President went to war to cause unilateral war. Terrorists attacking us isn’t exactly what I’d call war. They’re terrorists, not an organized army.

I dont believe you read my argument very well because you responded in such a way to not actually counter my points but to distract from them. you ramble about american compassion and how the iraqis are evil and how war isnt pretty but never got to the heart of the issue.

505 of the middle eastern world is under 18. and whether it is true or not they view us as a threat. our invasion was looked at another attempt at colonialization. we are the bad guy to the eyes of most of the arab world. When we toture prisoners and the picture leak out, no matter how much they toture us and no matter how many american heads are found on the sides of highways we look like the bad guy. our invasion of Iraq is producing a new generation of terrorists. they see our attrocitys, the children blind and limbless is hospitals and the crying wives of innocent men and obviously the hared towards us grows.

we are not hated because we are free, or liberty or any other idea that is installed by politicians. we are hated ecause of our foreign policy. now the solution. instead of taking an offensive matter to security we need to do this. we need to become the humanitarians of the world. if 1/5 of our 300 billion budget towards the military was spent on curing TB then before the end of this decade tuberculosis would no longer exist except in test tubes somewhere. we need to become more like canada in a sense. we need to become the peace keepers of the world, not inciting wars against governments that posed no real signifigant threat towards us.

as for the isreal/palestein fiasco you seem misinformed. yes, i remember the holocost but the zionist movement began before that. isreal was created by force. it was created on occupied lands. palestein was taken over and the isreali government was created in its place. the muslims in isreal then were forced out or sectioned off into ghettos. while the palestinians arnt completely innocent, they do indeed have a right to be angry because their rightful land was taken away from them and under the new government they were treated like second class citizens. our foreign policy towards isreal is a blind devotion. we need to be the mediators of the world not the instigators.

[TheKOB]

I dont believe you read my argument very well because you responded in such a way to not actually counter my points but to distract from them. you ramble about american compassion and how the iraqis are evil and how war isnt pretty but never got to the heart of the issue.

Iraqis are evil? I don't believe I said that. I got to the heart of every issue. I challange you to back up anything that you say here with fact.

[QUOTE=roughrider]505 of the middle eastern world is under 18. and whether it is true or not they view us as a threat. our invasion was looked at another attempt at colonialization. we are the bad guy to the eyes of most of the arab world. When we toture prisoners and the picture leak out, no matter how much they toture us and no matter how many american heads are found on the sides of highways we look like the bad guy. our invasion of Iraq is producing a new generation of terrorists. they see our attrocitys, the children blind and limbless is hospitals and the crying wives of innocent men and obviously the hared towards us grows.

Colonization....any fact? Our "atrocities" (by which you mean what exactly) don't approach anything that is done by the terrorists. The children blind and limbless in hospitals and crying wives of innocent men was all created by Islamic Fundamentalists attacking and bombing the people of Iraq. Not us.

we are not hated because we are free, or liberty or any other idea that is installed by politicians. we are hated ecause of our foreign policy. now the solution. instead of taking an offensive matter to security we need to do this. we need to become the humanitarians of the world. if 1/5 of our 300 billion budget towards the military was spent on curing TB then before the end of this decade tuberculosis would no longer exist except in test tubes somewhere. we need to become more like canada in a sense. we need to become the peace keepers of the world, not inciting wars against governments that posed no real signifigant threat towards us.

We need our military for several reasons. First, to keep us protected. Second, to back up the UN, because lord knows they wouldn't have anything resembling a force without us. We stabalize regions by having a presence there. There are worse things to be than the peacekeepers of the world...like having Canada's government. Our military budget isn't better spent anywhere else. One one side, you scream about not having enough troops, and then you say we need to cut it? Which is it?

as for the isreal/palestein fiasco you seem misinformed. yes, i remember the holocost but the zionist movement began before that. isreal was created by force. it was created on occupied lands. palestein was taken over and the isreali government was created in its place. the muslims in isreal then were forced out or sectioned off into ghettos. while the palestinians arnt completely innocent, they do indeed have a right to be angry because their rightful land was taken away from them and under the new government they were treated like second class citizens. our foreign policy towards isreal is a blind devotion. we need to be the mediators of the world not the instigators.

Speaking of misinformed, there was no such thing as Palestine. Now that it is under the control of Israel and not a bunch of different countries as it was, they want to be free. The muslims are not forced out and do not live in ghettos....feel free to ask my friend because she's from there. If our forgien policy towards Israel is blind devotion, then why do we spend so much time trying to broker peace deals? You wanna know a secret? Lean in close....the palastinians don't want peace. They aren't unified. They don't have anything resembling a center of command. Yassar Arafat is only in "control" as long as he doesn't do anything to piss off the terrorist organizations. Every time Israel starts talking about withdrawling troops, a suicide bomber runs into a cafe. Yeah, let's trust these people with their own country. You think they'd stop fighting or fight harder? Their aim isn't a free palistine...their aim is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Think about that before you blame Israel for all middle eastern woes. I know they have to take a softer line, but would you if you were in there shoes?

If we leave Israel high and dry (as seems to be your suggestion) how many of them would die? As soon as their military equipment fails....all of 'em. That sure is a lot of blood to have on your hands.

[roughrider]

Colonization....any fact? Our "atrocities" (by which you mean what exactly) don't approach anything that is done by the terrorists. The children blind and limbless in hospitals and crying wives of innocent men was all created by Islamic Fundamentalists attacking and bombing the people of Iraq. Not us.



We need our military for several reasons. First, to keep us protected. Second, to back up the UN, because lord knows they wouldn't have anything resembling a force without us. We stabalize regions by having a presence there. There are worse things to be than the peacekeepers of the world...like having Canada's government. Our military budget isn't better spent anywhere else. One one side, you scream about not having enough troops, and then you say we need to cut it? Which is it?



Speaking of misinformed, there was no such thing as Palestine. Now that it is under the control of Israel and not a bunch of different countries as it was, they want to be free. The muslims are not forced out and do not live in ghettos....feel free to ask my friend because she's from there. If our forgien policy towards Israel is blind devotion, then why do we spend so much time trying to broker peace deals? You wanna know a secret? Lean in close....the palastinians don't want peace. They aren't unified. They don't have anything resembling a center of command. Yassar Arafat is only in "control" as long as he doesn't do anything to piss off the terrorist organizations. Every time Israel starts talking about withdrawling troops, a suicide bomber runs into a cafe. Yeah, let's trust these people with their own country. You think they'd stop fighting or fight harder? Their aim isn't a free palistine...their aim is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Think about that before you blame Israel for all middle eastern woes. I know they have to take a softer line, but would you if you were in there shoes?

If we leave Israel high and dry (as seems to be your suggestion) how many of them would die? As soon as their military equipment fails....all of 'em. That sure is a lot of blood to have on your hands.

Isreal was formed in a muslim world. It was a forced thing, no way did it happen freely. resentments still occur from that. The Isreali government is openly trying to sperate the muslims from the Jews in that country through use of check points and fences. Lean in close too buddy, do you want to know why Hammas exists-Isrealis bulldoze palestian houses regulary and use missile attacks against hammas leaders in heavily populated regions and cause severe human causulties. Promise is there in the region. Now we are closer than ever to establishing a free Palestein in the gaza strip.

You claim that the blinded women and children in Iraqi hospitals were because of the terrorists. Try to tell that to them. While innoncent deaths in war are inevitable, they do occur. We have had bombs hit school buses, mosques, wedding receptions-never on purpose of course though.

There is still a role for the US military. I want a smaller military (contrary to Kerry I know, but i dont have to agree with everything). We need to maintain a military for precisely the reasons you stated. We are a major UN force and for our own general protection. If we werent at war in 2 countries right now a smalelr military would be fully possible. The military will get over 400 billion dollars as of next year. If I remember correctly that is more than we spend on NASA, humanitarian efforts, education and healthcare combined. The republican party once stood for a noble idea-cutting the wateful spending from the government. that obviously isnt happening. THe military owns and maintins over 500 golf courses on its bases throughout the world. that seems quite ridiculous. I agree with GB very little-our mission to mars being one of them and the pulling out of american forces from europe is another. THe cold war is over and the soldiers over there serve virtually no purpose now.

The money we could save by having a smalelr, more effiecent military could be spent improving our social standings in the world through humanitarian efforts or, as you republicans always seem to want, we could have a massive tax cut and still be on the road to having a surplus for once.

We only need the size of our military now because we stuck our noses into places they shouldnt be. I prupose we return to the grand american tradition of nuetrality.

[Longest]

The money we could save by having a smalelr, more effiecent military could be spent improving our social standings in the world through humanitarian efforts or, as you republicans always seem to want, we could have a massive tax cut and still be on the road to having a surplus for once.

We only need the size of our military now because we stuck our noses into places they shouldnt be. I prupose we return to the grand american tradition of nuetrality.

I propose politicians read the Constitution. National defense is certainly a worthwhile expenditure. Farm subsidies, federal invasion into education, healthcare socialism, bailouts of corporations, none of those should be the basis of our gov't. At least defense spending keeps us from being openly attacked with impunity.

Dan

[roughrider]

I propose politicians read the Constitution. National defense is certainly a worthwhile expenditure. Farm subsidies, federal invasion into education, healthcare socialism, bailouts of corporations, none of those should be the basis of our gov't. At least defense spending keeps us from being openly attacked with impunity.

Dan

The arguement would revert back to the ol' Jefferson and Hamiliton debate. Loose construction of the cositution can always rely on make all laws nessesary and proper or whatever the wording.

[CTLaxer]

For the record...the jews were there before the muslims were. The jews have had their land taken from them pretty much since their inception. They've been put into slavery, gone through extermination and genocide, now they're living through daily terrorist acts. I figure they deserve a place to call home after all the dust settles.

The KOB is right, palestine, as well as the other arab countries want israel removed from the planet. They would also like to have the people inhabiting it removed from the planet as well. As a matter of fact, have you ever heard of a thing called the 7 days war? That's basically when all of israel's arab neighbors joined forces and attacked israel in an effort to wipe them from the map. Funny thing is, it only lasted 7 days and when those 7 days were over, israel had doubled it's land mass from territory taken during the conflict. Wow, talk about backfire eh?

Also, we need to be like canada and be peacekeepers? When was the last time you heard a country or gov't body cry for the canadian peacekeepers, or give a sigh of relief once they saw troops coming in the distance waving that big 'ole maple leaf flag....I can't recall one instance.

Roughrider: your ideals border on isolationism and pacification/pacifism. THAT IS NOT A VIABLE OR PRODUCTIVE FOREIGN POLICY. Also, if you look back in history, the united states has never once had a colony....EVER. There are a few technicalities that go along with it, but we've never had one in our 200+ year history. Also, LEARN TO FREAKING SPELL/TYPE! Your liberal garbage would have more of an impact if you could actually spell a word or two of it correctly.

Lastly, I really wish there was a way to slap someone through the internet.

[TheKOB]

Isreal was formed in a muslim world. It was a forced thing, no way did it happen freely. resentments still occur from that. The Isreali government is openly trying to sperate the muslims from the Jews in that country through use of check points and fences. Lean in close too buddy, do you want to know why Hammas exists-Isrealis bulldoze palestian houses regulary and use missile attacks against hammas leaders in heavily populated regions and cause severe human causulties. Promise is there in the region. Now we are closer than ever to establishing a free Palestein in the gaza strip.

The claims for that land go back hundreds of years for both sides. Best idea would be to have a government with no state sponsered religion. Since Arabs aren't really used to that, and Israel probably won't do it, then you have to explore other options.

Hamas exists to kill innocent people. Missle attacks against Hamas leaders? I'll try hard not to shed a tear. Hamas was there because Israel was formed. THEN all these "injustices" are occuring to prevent them from attacking people at every turn. Houses bulldozed? you sure they weren't being used by terrorists? If a village sponsers terrorists, then they'll suffer.

You claim that the blinded women and children in Iraqi hospitals were because of the terrorists. Try to tell that to them. While innoncent deaths in war are inevitable, they do occur. We have had bombs hit school buses, mosques, wedding receptions-never on purpose of course though.

How many people are killed because of these international terrorists, and how many of our bombs hit school busses, mosques, and wedding receptions by accident? The numbers are nowhere near comparable. And I don't think you have to tell them that...they already know. It's a stretch to even find that many current articles on the matter...and I doubt it's a press conspiricy, since they feel the need to tell us every time an american dies over there.

There is still a role for the US military. I want a smaller military (contrary to Kerry I know, but i dont have to agree with everything). We need to maintain a military for precisely the reasons you stated. We are a major UN force and for our own general protection. If we werent at war in 2 countries right now a smalelr military would be fully possible. The military will get over 400 billion dollars as of next year. If I remember correctly that is more than we spend on NASA, humanitarian efforts, education and healthcare combined. The republican party once stood for a noble idea-cutting the wateful spending from the government. that obviously isnt happening. THe military owns and maintins over 500 golf courses on its bases throughout the world. that seems quite ridiculous. I agree with GB very little-our mission to mars being one of them and the pulling out of american forces from europe is another. THe cold war is over and the soldiers over there serve virtually no purpose now.

I'm all about cutting wasteful spending. That to me is spending like painting rocks in a national park so they look weather-worn, and all those other fleecing of america brokaw talks about. This world is a wild place. I think not being able to carry on a war on two fronts is a bad thing, not a good thing. Also, it's government spending that goes right back into the economy. I don't think the federal government has all that much business in education or healthcare. These are two things that when the fed get's involved it gets slower (or the kids do...zing!), more wasteful, and just not as effective. Why is it done? Because try running a campaign saying that you're going to cut the dept of education and hand it over to the states, and same for health care. You'll get killed by someone who "cares for the american people.

The money we could save by having a smalelr, more effiecent military could be spent improving our social standings in the world through humanitarian efforts or, as you republicans always seem to want, we could have a massive tax cut and still be on the road to having a surplus for once.

Is this high school? who cares about our social standing? If we're on the side of right, people will stand with us, and they have.

We only need the size of our military now because we stuck our noses into places they shouldnt be. I prupose we return to the grand american tradition of nuetrality.

The "grand" american tradition of neutrality you speak of died before WW1, was revived because of the great depression, and then died right before WW2, when we realized the world is a better place with us in it than without us. All the things you speak of (humanitarian efforts, providing healthcare, etc) are far from neutral. A world without America? Welcome back Soviet Union. Feel free to run amonk Taliban. Sounds like hell to me. To be neutral is to be of no consequence. If you see something wrong, you take a side. That goes for the playground, the class room, this message board, and the world stage.

[Longest]

The arguement would revert back to the ol' Jefferson and Hamiliton debate. Loose construction of the cositution can always rely on make all laws nessesary and proper or whatever the wording.

Amendment 10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

The Founders real intention was to limit the Fedl' power as evidenced by this amendment. Your necessary and proper argument, while good and valid, pales by this amendment. What's necessary and proper about universal healthcare to the overall administration of the gov't? Of national park expenditures? Of farm subsidies? "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof" - Section 8 of which you speak.

Dan