NFHS Counts

[pboyd]

Recognizing the NCAA 2008 Rules changes pertaining to start/stop 10/20 sec counts - is there any reason why we wouldn't adopt this change within the NFHS Rules? The language in the 2007 NFHS Rules 4-14 and 4-15 appears general enough to allow this with one exception where 4-14-c states "A loose ball breaks the plane of the midfield line" for stopping the 20-sec count. It seems that we need to lobby NFHS to delete this statement (assuming the 2008 NFHS Rules haven't addressed this issue) so that we can align counts between NCAA and NFHS.

[eme]

With the Fed. Rulebook now at the printer (and the Committee meeting back in July) it is now too late for additions or new situations. While, we, as officials, would like to eliminate as many inconsistencies between the two sets of rules as possible, the Fed. Rules Committee takes a change to its rulebook on its own merits, regardless of what the NCAA does. In fact, the Committee's hackles are raised a bit when even the acronym "NCAA" is mentioned. Thus, the rationale that "This is the way the NCAA does it and wouldn't it be great if Fed. could do it as well since officials would have to remember one less rule difference" has to come in the back door, so to speak, when a change is broached. It gains entrance through the front door when it can stand by itself as a good change. If it also is the way the NCAA does things, that is great for us...but very very secondary in the Fed.'s thinking.
Now to the issue of counts. First, I am not sure the Fed. (break the plane of the midline to end the count) and the NCAA (10-count starts when loose ball hits ground in the offensive half...is that what it is?...I am not sure) are really that different. Pretty much all of us stop the 20-sec. count when the ball goes over the midline..."Close enough for government work" seems to be the mantra.
Second, on the issue of the 10-sec. count restarting after entering the attack goal area. Fed. says restart the count when offensive gains possession outside the box while new NCAA rule says restart it when it hits the ground outside the box. This difference seems more critical. One way to align that difference in your state is have your state association mandate what is to be done if it differs from the Fed. Rulebook. I know Massachusetts does this on the FO terminology. Their state association says officials are to say Down and then the whistle on faceoffs in high-school play.

[jktlax]

...with one exception where 4-14-c states "A loose ball breaks the plane of the midfield line" for stopping the 20-sec count. It seems that we need to lobby NFHS to delete this statement (assuming the 2008 NFHS Rules haven't addressed this issue) so that we can align counts between NCAA and NFHS.

...I am not sure) are really that different. Pretty much all of us stop the 20-sec. count when the ball goes over the midline..."Close enough for government work" seems to be the mantra.

I agree that the 10-second count on a loose ball outside the box is the difference. In fact, the wording you want to delete from the NFHS book was in the 2007 NCAA book, and will probably remain for 2008:

: Rule 4, Section 13, Page 45: ...Once started, the 20-second count will continue until:

c. A loose ball breaks the plane of the midfield line.

[PlayOn]

I am really bummed that NFHS didn't include the new 10 second count in this years rules, i was under the impression that this was going to be included.

The count i refer to is the one where a new 10 second (in the offensive half) begins when the ball leaves the restraining box regardless of possession. There are so many rules that slow this sport down now, it would be nice to have one that makes it move fast again.

As always i'd like to advocate that we abolish the horn in 2009 and have all substitutions occur through the box at any time.

[eme]

It would have taken a bit of clairvoyance for the NFHS Committee to duplicate the NCAA new 10-sec-count procedure since the NFHS rules Committee met and made their 2008 rules 6 weeks before the NCAA rules Committee met.

There is an item on the NFHS Questionnaire this year concerning speeding up the game. Questionnaire goes to assorted coaches, officials, and administrators nationwide. "Would you like to see regular substitutions (i.e. a horn) disallowed for sideline out-of-bounds?"
If that were the case, you'd only have a horn for time-serving penalties, after a goal, and injuries.
I, for one, would be in favor of this.

[Get in Shape]

NCAA ; When the ball touches anything beyond the midline 10 second count starts. If the ball is kicked or batted back into the defensive zone does the original 10 count proceed or does a new one start for the now offensive zone?

[pboyd]

Once the 10-sec count starts - it continues until ball goes OOB, defense gains possession, timeout called (possession across the offensive restraining line in the alleys), or ball enters attack/goal area.

[massref]

NCAA ; When the ball touches anything beyond the midline 10 second count starts. If the ball is kicked or batted back into the defensive zone does the original 10 count proceed or does a new one start for the now offensive zone?

"When the ball touches anything beyond the midline 10 second count starts." Not necessarily, what about a loose ball off of a face off? No count, no ones ball. Or, a loose ball from a failed clear bounces over the mid line. The 20-second count stops, but no 10-second count begins unless the original clearing team picks up the ball.

If Team A is clearing the ball, loses possession before crossing midfield, the ball is kicked over the mid line, what count continues? 20-second? No, the ball crossed the mid line. 10-second? No, no possession has been determined over the mid line. No one picked up the ball.

Rule 4, 4-15 Situation B: Team A has possession of the ball in its attack goal area. The ball becomes loose and Team A gains possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field. RULING: A 10-second count STARTS for Team A unless Team B had an intervening possession [in which case it would be a 20-second count for Team A]. So the original 10-second count would continue IF Team A with possession of the ball crossed the mid-line, and did not cross the goal area line, then a loose ball was kicked, etc. back into the defensive area.

[LaxRef]

NCAA ; When the ball touches anything beyond the midline 10 second count starts. If the ball is kicked or batted back into the defensive zone does the original 10 count proceed or does a new one start for the now offensive zone?

Yeah, I don't think this is right either. The latest rules bulletin stated that the rule will say that the count starts as soon as it touches something outside of box only after the ball touches something inside the box. But we'll see for sure when the new rulebooks come out/get posted (hopefully soon!).

[eme]

http://www1.ncaa.org/eprise/main/playingrules/mlacrosse/10-25-07Laxupdatesltrhead.pdf?ObjectID=51533&ViewMode=0&PreviewState=0

This NCAA site has a situation that says if B is clearing the ball and throws it over midfield, the 10-sec. count for Team B would begin when the ball hits the ground. This infers that a loose ball coming from a) out of the attack goal area or B) coming from a clear over the midline...a 10-sec. count is started. Both situations contingent upon no intervening possession by the opponent. This would differ from last year's rule whereby the 10-sec. count wouldn't begin until B gained possession of the ball over midfield (this, by the way, is still the NFHS rule).

[LaxRef]

http://www1.ncaa.org/eprise/main/playingrules/mlacrosse/10-25-07Laxupdatesltrhead.pdf?ObjectID=51533&ViewMode=0&PreviewState=0

This NCAA site has a situation that says if B is clearing the ball and throws it over midfield, the 10-sec. count for Team B would begin when the ball hits the ground. This infers that a loose ball coming from a) out of the attack goal area or B) coming from a clear over the midline...a 10-sec. count is started. Both situations contingent upon no intervening possession by the opponent. This would differ from last year's rule whereby the 10-sec. count wouldn't begin until B gained possession of the ball over midfield (this, by the way, is still the NFHS rule).

Was this bulletin sent out? I never received it. That makes a big difference.

So, loose ball in Zone 3: there will always be a count of some sort except before possession on a face-off? :thinking:

[eme]

I had never seen the notice as well. I was searching the ncaa site for the 2008 rulebook (usually appears around Dec. 1) and found that bulletin.

[pboyd]

Keep it simple. The clearing team has a maximum of 30 seconds to get the ball into its attack/goal area. This includes a maximum of 20 seconds to get the ball into its offensive half of the field at which point the 10 sec count begins.
The only time there is no count active is (1) During FO prior to posession, (2) offensive team has the ball in its attack/goal area, or (3) the ball is loose and in flight leaving the attack/goal area until its touches the ground outside the attack/goal area.

[LaxRef]

Keep it simple. The clearing team has a maximum of 30 seconds to get the ball into its attack/goal area. This includes a maximum of 20 seconds to get the ball into its offensive half of the field at which point the 10 sec count begins.
The only time there is no count active is (1) During FO prior to posession, (2) offensive team has the ball in its attack/goal area, or (3) the ball is loose and in flight leaving the attack/goal area until its touches the ground outside the attack/goal area.

Simple is not always better. For teams that like to stall, if they get a quick clear they'll just run the ball around for 25 seconds, and no one wants to see that.

I always thought 20 seconds was too long for the clear anyway. We used to give 10 just to get across the DCL, and doubling it makes it easier (since if you get the ball across the DCL in less that 10 seconds you can apply that excess time to getting out of Zone 2, and vice versa).

What about 20 seconds to clear the ball and get it into Zone 4 (attack area), then 10 seconds to get it back in thereafter.

[Woodenstick]

The higher the level of play, the shorter the time that should be needed to get the ball into the offensive zone. 20 seconds is probably fine for college and maybe high school varsity, but that might be a little tight for middle school through average JV play. The problem for NFHS rules is that the quality of play varies so much from top level varsity to beginner middle school and high school teams, where 1/2 the players are learning how to catch and throw.

[LaxRef]

The higher the level of play, the shorter the time that should be needed to get the ball into the offensive zone. 20 seconds is probably fine for college and maybe high school varsity, but that might be a little tight for middle school through average JV play. The problem for NFHS rules is that the quality of play varies so much from top level varsity to beginner middle school and high school teams, where 1/2 the players are learning how to catch and throw.

Good point: this may be one area where it makes sense to have an NFHS-NCAA rule difference.

According to the US Lacrosse Youth Rules, there are no counts in middle school (U15) and under lacrosse.

[Lax Fan26]

I guess I am now a relic (or just now realizing that I am a relic). Back in the late 80's/early 90's when I played, one of the attractions of the game to me as a D-man was clearing. Beyond their 1-on-1 play near the crease, D-men were valued for their clearing pass accuracy, poise, patience, and stick handling to frustrate riding attackmen. The incentive was always to get the ball upfield and I don't remember intentionally stalling on the clear (though I don't doubt that it happened).

Now, we are working ourselves into a tizzy about having a clock on the ball everywhere on the field as though it is the only incentive to keep play going. Is this really best for the game? Is the growth of the game in the last 5-6 years directly tied to the timing rule changes or has it grown inspite of them? I know that my questions will have no effect in reversing the trend towards a clock on everything (next, they will time our pre-game instructions to the players!), but I hope somebody at the NCAA with perspective is pondering these questions.

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

I guess I am now a relic (or just now realizing that I am a relic). Back in the late 80's/early 90's when I played, one of the attractions of the game to me as a D-man was clearing. Beyond their 1-on-1 play near the crease, D-men were valued for their clearing pass accuracy, poise, patience, and stick handling to frustrate riding attackmen. The incentive was always to get the ball upfield and I don't remember intentionally stalling on the clear (though I don't doubt that it happened).

I will also sound like a relic if I start to converse with you about all of the rules changes to the game since the late '80s (though some others on this board can go back much further!). A D-man or a keeper who is good on the clear I agree has always and is still highly valued.

Now, we are working ourselves into a tizzy about having a clock on the ball everywhere on the field as though it is the only incentive to keep play going. Is this really best for the game? Is the growth of the game in the last 5-6 years directly tied to the timing rule changes or has it grown inspite of them? I know that my questions will have no effect in reversing the trend towards a clock on everything (next, they will time our pre-game instructions to the players!), but I hope somebody at the NCAA with perspective is pondering these questions.

IMHO, the game has grown in spite of these changes. Look at it this way, other than we officials and a few others including many coaches, do most people who are at a lacrosse game really understand the rules? But, they still enjoy it. Are the timing changes and other changes such as sending off the FOGO for a FO infraction good for the game? I myself cannot yet say, but my hope is that the rules committee will be as open and quick to withdrawing or changing a new rule as they are to implementing one.

[eme]

LF26's Good Old Days lament fails to mention a) horns allowed on endlines b) no counts so that riding team brought in 9 long poles (no limit on # then) and even a year of c) no faceoffs after a goal...just award ball to scored-upon team on their end line. It was the Base-Ball-Ization of the fastest game on two feet.

[Lax Fan26]

LF26's Good Old Days lament fails to mention

Gosh, even when I complain I screw it up! :sad:

a) horns allowed on endlines b) no counts so that riding team brought in 9 long poles (no limit on # then)

I don't think that I ever saw 9 poles on at once but I do remember five poles for man down...

and even a year of c) no faceoffs after a goal...just award ball to scored-upon team on their end line. It was the Base-Ball-Ization of the fastest game on two feet.

I must have missed the year of possession after goal; maybe LF25 remembers that.

I don't lament all of the changes since I started playing in 1981 but I was only wanting to see if anyone else thought the pendulum had swung too far towards the timing extreme. eme, thanks for your perspective.