Headbutting

[sabreace]

Just got back from an indoor Lax game, and I am debating something in my head- I'll lay out the situation:

When playing man-on defense to keep the other team's main shooter from roll-dodging me, he'd sprint right into me (after the roll-dodge, his timing was too early), and more than once headbutted me pretty damn hard- I could feel it through my helmet. There wasn't a ref at this particular game, since the lax community around here is pretty weak. Oh well.

But anyway, is headbutting in this specific (and any) case legal? I'm still not sure if it was on purpose, since the guy is taller than me, but it was obvious enough that when I subbed out my teammates on the sideline were going 'Holy crap, he headbutted you pretty hard.'

[lacrosseman192]

well did he put his head down so it was parallel to the ground or did he hit you with his facemask

[sabreace]

I don't know. I was trying to shove him, so I was leaning forward, and he is taller than me enough so that I couldn't see his face. But the hit (a bit above my visor) flung my head backward and squashed my upper spine a bit, so I'd say his head was fairly parallel when I got hit.

[MainLax28]

I am really, really sure it is illegal. I know we had one kid get called for spearing numerous times this year, and that is exactly what he would do. I find that it comes with inexperience in the lacrosse field, but with knowledge of football, where it is still illegal, but happens much more often. I have only seen it get called on player playing defense on someone else though. Never in the way you described it. Wait for LaxRef's decision.

[footlax]

same thing happened to me during fall ball this year, but the inexperienced ref did not recognize it as a foul, he actually congratulated the kid for a "good" hit.
digusting.

[LiquidMercury16]

Hmm I lower my head when I bull dodge and usually don't get called for it when I go helmet to helmet with someone.

[footlax]

well, technically any helmet-to-helmet contact is illegal, but refs in the south rarely call it.

[LaxRef]

It's illegal, most likely spearing, possibly USC.

[middie16]

isnt leading with your head illegal? thats what i sounds like to me.

[LaxRef]

isnt leading with your head illegal? thats what i sounds like to me.

There is no foul for "leading with your head." Initiating contact with the head is spearing (1-3 min NR).

[inblack]

up here ... if i see it DEFANITLY a penality.
1-3 min depending on the severity and intent.

if he is repeating it ,i'd be tempted to say that there is intent there.

[cali feeder]

I got called for it once...ask Got Aloha about it. And then I dropped an F-bomb, so I think it was like a 3 minute USC.

Except I did it on purpose. Ah, summer lax, how I miss thou...

[LaxRef]

I got called for it once...ask Got Aloha about it. And then I dropped an F-bomb, so I think it was like a 3 minute USC.

Except I did it on purpose. Ah, summer lax, how I miss thou...

If you deliberately head butt a player, especially during a dead ball, that could easily be an expulsion.

[scott68111]

It's illegal, most likely spearing, possibly USC.

LR, Isn't USC a noncontact foul? In this situation I see initiating contact with the head (spearing) 1-3 min NR according to NF5-3-6. I would be hesitant to call an USC on a player when contact was involved more likely IBC, UR or in this case, spearing.

[LaxRef]

LR, Isn't USC a noncontact foul? In this situation I see initiating contact with the head (spearing) 1-3 min NR according to NF5-3-6. I would be hesitant to call an USC on a player when contact was involved more likely IBC, UR or in this case, spearing.

No. There are those that say you shouldn't use USC for anything that could be construed as one of the other personals, but I don't buy that. Slashing someone during a dead ball because you're mad at them is very different from slashing during a live ball because you're trying to get the ball away and falls under:

Bait, taunt, call undue attention to oneself, or commit any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials. Baiting and taunting is a one to three-minute nonreleasable foul in all cases.

Of course, the deliberate slash during a dead ball could also be an expulsion foul.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Unnecessary Roughness is a catch-all penalty that would cover offensive spearing quite nicely IMO.

[LaxRef]

Unnecessary Roughness is a catch-all penalty that would cover offensive spearing quite nicely IMO.

But if he's initiating contact with the head, I think you need to call it spearing and thus make it NR.

[laxzeeb]

My recall is NFHS it is an illegal body check specifically covered as spearing and it is 1-3 min. NR. Anyone who has ever seen the film of Nick Buoniconti's son Marc spearing during a tackle, when he was playing football for the Citidel, knows how dangerous this can be, he is now a quadriplegic. This is one rule I believe you must strictly enforce to send the message. IMHO it is one of the most dangerous things a player can do on the field and unfortunately he does it to himself.

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

Yes, it's IBC and 1-3m NR. Elevating it to a USC with 1-3m NR depends on the official's interpretation as to whether he/she observed an act that is considered unsportsmanlike, perhaps spearing in a manner that can cause intentional or unintentional injury. If it was flagrant misconduct, perhaps if the player speared with intent to injure (spearing at the knees) or spearing a player not within 5 yards of the ball, then ejection/expulsion may be in order.

[Woodenstick]

Ejection (flagrent) personal fouls, spearing, USC and certain other fouls are explicitly designated as always nonreleasable. Does the referee have the authority to make another foul (say slashing) a NR penalty?

Or must the official deem the foul to be USC to make it NR?

The latter is my understanding, but I couldn't find anything explicit in the NFHS rules.

[massref]

Unnecessary Roughness is a catch-all penalty that would cover offensive spearing quite nicely IMO.

That's the call if you don't want to do the USC paperwork. The rule book has spearing as an Illegal Check so that is not much different than Unnecessary Roughness. It is one of those gut reads when you see helmet to helmet contact that is intentional vs. accidental. The first time might be momentum/accidental during a body check, the second time it happens-flag!

I ejected a player for a helmet to helmet contact when player A lost a ground ball to an opponent B behind the goal, A got mad, banged his stick twice into the ground, and then ran from there to almost the restraining line where he caught up with the player B with the ball and nailed him helmet to helmet. GONE!!

[scott68111]

I ejected a player for a helmet to helmet contact when player A lost a ground ball to an opponent B behind the goal, A got mad, banged his stick twice into the ground, and then ran from there to almost the restraining line where he caught up with the player B with the ball and nailed him helmet to helmet. GONE!!

OK Massref, I am going thru penalty enforcement right now. Here goes with what I would do...A1 who speared is ejected from the game for a flagarant PF. Team A's in-home serves 3 min NR in the box and B restarts on the offensive side of the field at the center faceoff X. What do you all think????

[laxzeeb]

I agree. In the scenario Massref outlines it would be a reportable USC in my neck of the woods.

[coaches gal]

My recall is NFHS it is an illegal body check specifically covered as spearing and it is 1-3 min. NR. Anyone who has ever seen the film of Nick Buoniconti's son Marc spearing during a tackle, when he was playing football for the Citidel, knows how dangerous this can be, he is now a quadriplegic. This is one rule I believe you must strictly enforce to send the message. IMHO it is one of the most dangerous things a player can do on the field and unfortunately he does it to himself.

I agree with laxzeeb. This is a very dangerous move. Our program had a kid paralized due to spearing [about 10 years ago]. With the recent professional football players who have survived their spearing incidents I would hope that anyone involved in this sport would discourage spearing.

It's not something you do in our area if you're smart because the same officials that ref'd the game when our kid was hurt are still around and they won't hesitate to give a 2 hour lecture after the game.

[massref]

OK Massref, I am going thru penalty enforcement right now. Here goes with what I would do...A1 who speared is ejected from the game for a flagarant PF. Team A's in-home serves 3 min NR in the box and B restarts on the offensive side of the field at the center faceoff X. What do you all think????

He was ejected and his replacement served the 3-minute non-releasable time, and in Massachusetts, he also misses the next game.

BUT, this is my question about the in home serving the penalty. If A1 is ejected with a 3 minute non-releasable UC ejection penalty, he is gone and then if you take the in-home, A2, to serve the penalty time, then that team lost two starting players from play even though only one, A2, is in the penalty box. Why does the in-home, A2, serve the time when A1 is already gone? Why doesn't A1's replacement, A3, serve the time? One foul, one player out of the game.

[LaxRef]

He was ejected and his replacement served the 3-minute non-releasable time, and in Massachusetts, he also misses the next game.

BUT, this is my question about the in home serving the penalty. If A1 is ejected with a 3 minute non-releasable UC ejection penalty, he is gone and then if you take the in-home, A2, to serve the penalty time, then that team lost two starting players from play even though only one, A2, is in the penalty box. Why does the in-home, A2, serve the time when A1 is already gone? Why doesn't A1's replacement, A3, serve the time? One foul, one player out of the game.

The in-home serves the penalty when the penalty is a player not in the game. Once ejected, A1 is no longer a player in the game, so A2 serves it.

And regardless, Team A is without two players: A1 and A2 or A1 and A3. And the only one we know for sure is a starter is A2!

[scott68111]

Team A is without two players: A1 and A2 or A1 and A3. And the only one we know for sure is a starter is A2!

But they are only one man down on the field right?????

[3rdPersonPlural]

But they are only one man down on the field right?????

Yeah. One is ejected, and the other is serving time on his behalf. But, indeed, the field is only one man down.

[laxzeeb]

He was ejected and his replacement served the 3-minute non-releasable time, and in Massachusetts, he also misses the next game.


Same here, any USC the player misses the next game. Same rule would apply if the coach gets one for that matter. It is one reason we are careful there are grounds to call it.

Thankfully, we don't see alot of spearing, perhaps that can be credited to proper training. I hope it is emphasized, as it only takes one time for it to be a horrible life changing event.

[LaxRef]

Same here, any USC the player misses the next game. Same rule would apply if the coach gets one for that matter. It is one reason we are careful there are grounds to call it.

Any USC, or any ejection? Because a suspension for a USC is a little extreme.

[laxzeeb]

Any USC, or any ejection? Because a suspension for a USC is a little extreme.

It is for the ejection, not just a USC. I'd agree, that would be extreme. Should have clarified that.

My recall is that it is mandated by the state athletic association for all sanctioned sports, kicked out, sit one out.

[massref]

Yeah. One is ejected, and the other is serving time on his behalf. But, indeed, the field is only one man down.

If you remove both the ejected player and the in-home from the game to serve the penalty, then a sub has come into the game so that the team is only one man down -- one foul, one man down.

If you try to remove two players for one foul you may experience the "Game from Hell" for the rest of the day. :nono:

Devils :hot: advocate, just for fun: What if the ejected player is the in-home?

[LaxRef]

Devils :hot: advocate, just for fun: What if the ejected player is the in-home?

Technically correct answer: the closest starting attackman in the scorebook to the in-home.

But there are many officials out there who subscribe to the "Coach, stick someone in the box and let's get play started" philosophy.

[PlayOn]

From what this guy is describing it sounds like the player he was defending against is trying to make it look as if the contact was incidental. If its not overtly agressive the first time it happened it may just be called a brush. If it sent your head back as hard as you say or if the guy is dodging like that repeatedly I'd go with an UR.