Scorecard rethink

[3rdPersonPlural]

The MOST ungainly part of officiating is pulling out the scorecard, clutching it in your hand, writing something legible on it, ensuring that rivulets of sweat don't erase your log, making sure that only the pencil touches the card so that your sweaty paw doesn't smear everything, and then wondering if the chicken scratch you end up with is remnants from last week or is current.

My (proposed) solution until recently has been to create a snug forearmband, like that of a rookie quarterback, with firm backing that takes an 8X5 light plastic erasable or firm paper insert upon which critical data can be recorded. The scorecard can come with a reverse side with all of the rules that one is unlikely to have encountered before (stacking 6 per team, for instance) and LaxRef's personal cell number for utter emergencies. However, writing on the forearm is a lot easier than writing on a plastic card clutched in the hand.

This would be a plus.

However, after reading Aloha's thread which justifiably raises an alarm that suitable PENCILS are becoming unavailable, I realize that even meter maids now have a little handheld digital device, and WTF can't we?

This will take some thinking, and the payoff won't be much. However, we always have the Chinese to make it cheap.

Any ideas?

[hymie]

Is it required that you physically carry the scorecard with you?

I seem to recall, in the late '80s, that in the last 30 seconds of a quarter, the "official time" was kept by a girl at the scorer's table who would wander around the midfield area sort of between the ref and the table.

Could the "official scorecard" be physically maintained by a person at the scorer's table, rather than in your sweaty pocket?

[LaxRef]

Is it required that you physically carry the scorecard with you?

I seem to recall, in the late '80s, that in the last 30 seconds of a quarter, the "official time" was kept by a girl at the scorer's table who would wander around the midfield area sort of between the ref and the table.

Could the "official scorecard" be physically maintained by a person at the scorer's table, rather than in your sweaty pocket?

Keep the timers off the field! That practice has been discontinued due to the tremendous liability issues involved.

No, the oficial score can't be kept at the table. By rule, the referee keeps the official score. Do you want to lose a game because the home scorer "forgot" to write down a goal or two by your team?

[eme]

Sweaty pockets? Rivulets of sweat making a scorecard hard to handle?
Very interesting concepts.
I only have trouble with gloves covering numbed fingers....
I can't imagine a forearm band working since I have Underarmor, woolsweater, long-sleeve shirt and then coat over my forearms.

[pboyd]

At the risk of offending any of my esteemed colleagues - keep it simple - Rules require scorecard adn pencil - next thing you'll want to do is change the crosse dimensions - isn't anything sacred.

[PlayOn]

if anything needs to be revised it's the scorecard itself. The back is almost completely useless unless you area restarting in same relative position. At least put the correct field dimensions on the chart.

[inblack]

man ....
all this complex discussion, so long as it's not raining I prefer to use and do use one of those little (top bound) ring bound note pads.
I have scores and time outs and expulsions etc .... for every game i have done for years in my collection of old note pads.
Nothing rubs off, easy to read, I can use a pen if i so desire (which i don't, I have a love for the Bullet pencil as well) and i have room to write anything i want to down, just turn the page.

field dimentions and crosse measurements are written right on my dollar store tape measure with a 'sharpie'

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

You Canadians, always trying to use common sense!

Actually, this is a great idea, and one that I will try out this spring! I can paste my plastic cards to the cardboard covers to use as templates as well.

[3rdPersonPlural]

You Canadians, always trying to use common sense!



That's because Canadians can't........






.......wait for it, it's a funny one....











THEY CAN'T THINK OUT SIDE OF THE 'BOX'!!

Get it? Box?

Gosh I crack myself up sometimes. Box.....I'm a hoot.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/20/LOL-AlbinoGorrilla.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2391)

[inblack]

OOOOHHHHH that's Bad!

I'm chuckling, but ...
Geeze ...

Honestly I dont typically carry a 'card' or "Riot Pad" as we call them in the the box when I ref box. I just try to call the game is such a was as i wont need to detail a Riot!

As for a Game Template.... (Remember this is based in the ILF, CLA rules)
Draw a line down the center from top to bottom... (Home Left, Away Right)
1 line down from the top draw a horizontal line.... (Team Names, or Colours)
2nd line down draw another horizontal line... (Captins) then a vertical line (In Home) and Designated Defender if you are using one.
One Line UP from the bottom, horizontal line (Time Outs)
All the space in the middle is for the scores.
At the end of each quarter ... Horizontal Line!

I save my page and attach my pencil by wrapping an elastic around the pad to keep it open to the correct page.

On the back side (rear facing Page) I detail any other things that happen. Expulsions, Stick Measures, Equipment checks, Fights (Creator Forbid)....

Anything I may want to 'research' post game.

[laxzeeb]

If I could get one of those ring bound small pads with the lax scorecard printed on the pages, since I know where everything is, I'd go for that. I've deplored the plastic card since my football days.

I know there is a company making software for Windows CE devices [handhelds like Palm Pilots but they use different operating software] for football and other sports but I don't see that as practical given weather and battery issues. I don't know how either a footbal or lacrosse ref could run around with an expensive electronic device either.

I've debated sometimes about carrying a small digital voice recorder, especially for USC's, since those have to be reported in my area, but figured I might get razzed to death. They are much cheaper and very compact though.

As for bullet pencils, they still seem plentiful 3PP, see my posts in the thread you mention.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I am dismayed that nobody else but me seems put out by having to write intricate symbols on a plastic card clutched in the hand. It may be because I'm lefty, or maybe because I'm always trying to figure out if #7 scored or if that's a comma, but I find the official method to be less than satisfactory.

Reduce my satisfaction quotient, and you reduce my incentive(!)

I will invest in one of those paper books and pursue zeeb's hot connection for bullet pencils. If this proves unsatisfactory, I will return to complain yet again.

[laxfan224]

With Kinkos (or your local printer) it's pretty easy to get them to print something and bind it. I made a small ringed book for something else I reffed before. I wonder.. hmmmmm

Ok, how about a new question. Is there anything that you would LIKE to see on a score card?

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

I'm a righty, and I do agree that the plastic card and I are not fans of each other. Considering my poor penmanship, and that I try to conduct a FO after a goal as quickly as possible, I too have trouble figuring out what I wrote.

If we are going through the trouble of designing a card for we legibly handicapped officials, why not print a grid for player numbers that you can mark for goals scored using checks or slashes? So, if #43 scores, write in his number and a check, and after each score check the number. After 3 goals, congratulate him on the hat trick. Maybe you do this already, but I have trouble organizing numbers on the present card and instead try to write each number down after each goal. Then, I try to discern between what I wrote, and what I did not completely erased from the last game, and now becomes a problem.

[laxzeeb]

Ok, how about a new question. Is there anything that you would LIKE to see on a score card?

I would like to see a better way of keeping track of AP, but not sure how to change the card to do it. The cards don't erase well, especially on the fly, so if it changes a couple of times you have illegible smeared boxes. Some guys use a rubber band on their arm(s) for AP but that's just another thing to forget to change in my book.

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

This one we got from a post a while ago by LR: use a paper clip and move it to either side of the card if AP changes.

[laxzeeb]

This one we got from a post a while ago by LR: use a paper clip and move it to either side of the card if AP changes.

Like it much, thanks. Guess you could even use one of those little post it flags also. In fact, I suppose you could stick a post it on the back side of the card for game notes as well, yank it off if you need to write on the back of the card and put it back. Should have used my noggin a little more.

[laxfan224]

I know its not part of the uniform but what about the use of a football wrist down marker? Index finger = Home, Middle = Away? for AP? This may make it quicker to determine AP?

Just talking outloud here so bare with me.

[C.Montgomery]

I keep track of AP by writing the numbers one through four on my card. I write "1 3" above the team that gets the first AP, and "2 4" above the other team, along the top of my card. If the ball is awarded via AP I give it to the team with the "1" and cross it off, so I'd end up with "X 3" and "2 4"; if there's another AP in that game then I'd cross off the "2", and so on. Also, unless it's raining I used a folded 8.5x11 piece of paper and a retractable ball point pen. I always have room for narratives in case of USC and can draw my card however I want that day. I usually use the bottom of the card to write down when I will check sticks and then check them off as I go.

[Rileylax]

Wow...so much brain power expended on the scorecard. Face it, we're responisible for keeping score...one of the things we're paid for. I would like to see the bounded pad, card stock score cared. Love the paperclip/AP idea. 3PP, forget the wristband idea...ruins the tan line...ask eme!

[3rdPersonPlural]

Next time you're clutching a plastic scorecard and trying to write something legible on it whle your timer ticks awy, Riley, just remember that you rebuffed the inquisitive 3PP when he suggested a better way.

And you're worried about your tan lines?



Count your blessings! I'm getting pre cancerous stuff on my forearms because I don't have protection. It's sunblock or a scorecard for me!

[shrekjr]

Okay, I'm liking the note pad ideas, but I also think the old school officials in charge would not like it very much because it isn't the same plastic "official card" they carry. In fact, we have enough debates over what to keep track of on the card, much less being criticized for not using "proper equipment".

[3rdPersonPlural]

Okay, I'm liking the note pad ideas, but I also think the old school officials in charge would not like it very much because it isn't the same plastic "official card" they carry. In fact, we have enough debates over what to keep track of on the card, much less being criticized for not using "proper equipment".

Shrek, you and I are now old school refs. We've officiated over 100 games, we've gotten through the rule book at least once cover to cover (how many christians in good standing can say that about the bible?), and we have bumbled through a few chin scratchers without losing our mojo.

So I say let's leverage our status as old boys and innovate a bit.

[shrekjr]

Shrek, you and I are now old school refs. We've officiated over 100 games, we've gotten through the rule book at least once cover to cover (how many christians in good standing can say that about the bible?), and we have bumbled through a few chin scratchers without losing our mojo.

So I say let's leverage our status as old boys and innovate a bit.
Okay, you have shamed me into trying the notepad this weekend, though I do have the possibility of rain at least one of the days so we'll see how it goes. :worship:

[inblack]

Ok I love my little ring bound note pad. But in the rain ... a plastic card it is.

Rain+Paper=Realpulpymessinmypocket

You actually argue about how you arange your infomrmation on the card!? You are kidding me right. If I can read my card and tell you what captian/score/timeout/stick measure etc ... what does it matter?

[C.Montgomery]

You can use Rite in the Rain paper. The 3x5 spiral memo book would probably work best. They have plane lined paper and some with other designs for specific purposes, or if you were so inclined you could get custom pages printed.
http://www.riteintherain.com/

[laxfan25]

I seem to remember hearing about a ref who used note cards for games he officiated, and actually kept all of them!! That's a little over the top for me, and he probably has a giant ball of string and every issue of National Geographic...
I was very disappointed at the convention to find that the Official's Corner had no bullet pencils, and that it is actually a patented device! Where is Laxzeeb's secret source?

[spenny]

you can get the write in the rain pads at REI if you have one nearby. i keep one and a pencil in my fly fishing vest so i can make notes about stuff.

[massref]

I would like to see a better way of keeping track of AP, but not sure how to change the card to do it. The cards don't erase well, especially on the fly, so if it changes a couple of times you have illegible smeared boxes. Some guys use a rubber band on their arm(s) for AP but that's just another thing to forget to change in my book.

I've been officiating for 30 years and haven't had the problems keeping score mentioned in this thread . It never occurred to me that it was difficult or that there was a problem with the scorecard. My fingers might get numb but that's not a scorecard problem. :thinking:

As for keeping track of AP, when the team selects their choice at the coin toss I write a series of letters across the top of my scorecard that indicates the teams. It the team are white and black I write W B W B W B across the top and then just cross off W if they get an AP so then B is next. Pretty simple, and how many AP's does a game usually have? Almost none. :clap:

[LaxRef]

You can use Rite in the Rain paper. The 3x5 spiral memo book would probably work best. They have plane lined paper and some with other designs for specific purposes, or if you were so inclined you could get custom pages printed.
http://www.riteintherain.com/

Good tip, but maybe they should invest in a spell-checker before they rite anything else. :monkey:

[shrekjr]

Okay, I took the ribbing and used the notepad. Here are my thoughts....

- A little bulkier to fumble with in a hurry between goals but okay
- Need to lay out the "template" a little better
- Need to move the rubber band to the bottom of the page to keep the corners from curling
- Still can't read any of it without my reading glasses!
- Turning it over to use back worked well for making notes during the game, and to get all the necessary information after a fight

[Rileylax]

3PP a bit out of line on your comment (look at #21). The more accoutrements you make people wear the more cumbrsome it becomes and the dumber we look. I've experimented over the years and look to colleagues for ideas. "Disposable" scorecards are great. Paper is too flimsy and becomes usless in rain or high humidity. Finding a good card stock would work. Laxref has posted a good template for us to use and print on cardstock. Probably the best idea. I've also found that not all plastic cards are equal. Again, the problem is finding the quality writeable ones.

BTW, I have no problem marking the info on my card as my "timer ticks away." I have yet to delay play as I draw smiley faces on my card and am "working on my tan." :naughty:

[3rdPersonPlural]

Riley, I hope that you weren't politely saying that I was offensive in post 21. If so, I apologize. If not, I apologize for apologizing.

It isn't so much the paper stock that vexes me. It's trying to write on something that fits in your pocket but doesn't fit in the hand. I write lefty, which may make me more sensitive to this issue, but that darned scorecard is not optimized.

I'll try a spiral bound mini notebook, and I'll try printing LR's template onto heavy gauge paper, and I'll try to learn to love my plastic scorecard. Updates pending.

[shrekjr]

Where is LR's template?

I tried the notebook for the second time yesterday after changing the layout. It was much easier after fumbling with it the first game, but my layout still needs tweaking. The biggest issue now are the bottom corners curling up as the game goes on. That can be prevented by pushing the rubber band toward the bottom and making sure you don't need that space for scoring. Heavier card stock would be better, but also much more expensive. I bought 6 of the notepads for $1.00!

[inblack]

Ok after years of using the ring bound pads. .... as i mentioned i simply prefer this method. I am a southpaw as well.

The curling at the bottom, will continue as you flip through the pages.
I put the 'time outs' down at the bottom. Here in our area teams don't take to many.
I find lots of room for scoring, how I record it is " 15-12," 15 is the goal scorer (underlined) and 12 is the associated assist. neat tidy, minimal strokes and with a sharp pencil .. small.
I dont provide even 'cubes' for each quarter scoring. I just draw a line across at the whistle the total the quarter write it down and circle it
we dont have the AP thing in Canada.
Clip your pencil to the pad and tuck it under the rubber band. Then you can pull the lot out of your pocket in one motion.
The pad itself will begin to curl. Trust me you will get used to it.
I prefer my right hip pocket, (part of the reason the pad curls) then the pad is in my right hand and i take the pencil off with my left. -- really slick eh! Im a lefty -- now im ready to go.
i dont care how i spell on my card, i just want the trigger to remind me of the information.

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/inblack/?action=view&current=DSC_0011.jpg

under the team names -- the three captains, vertical line, for the in home and above the in home next to the team name is the Designated defender. (this is a CLA rule where both teams do not have a sub goalkeeper)
Then there are the goals, (ok this day i have no assists noted) (bad Inbalck, BAD)
Where there is a blank line I have a goal scores and I did not get the scorer from my partners, I have the right count, just not the player. If im the head ref i can get this at a time out or at the quarter rather than yelling across the field or delaying the restart.
at the bottom you can see the Guelph Time out in the Second half, and McGill took all four. This game i noted that one of my two partners was recording the game clock on the TO's so i did not. If if had recorded them that is on the back side.
There were no fights/altercations/or stick measures in this game.

[LaxRef]

Where is LR's template?

See the MDOC resources page link in the FAQ.

InBlack, we don't record assists here. We just don't care!

[shrekjr]

See the MDOC resources page link in the FAQ.

Thank you. Guess I should know that page exists. :read:

[Carroll81]

I worked with a guy last year who would put strips of white tape on the card before each game. He would use a permanent marker or pen to record everything. When the game was over he would remove the tape. He claimed:

- no unexpected dulling or erasing due to sweat or a rub of the thumb
- no need to go through the erasing ritual at the beginning of the game
- the black or blue ink was more readable than the pencil in bright sun

[Rileylax]

I used to use a type of tape on my old scorecard that was made to write on and erase. Worked great until the heavy rain games. BTW, where have all the bullet pencils gone? :thinking:

[laxzeeb]

BTW, where have all the bullet pencils gone? :thinking:

I talked to Bill Twohig, who runs Official's Corner, at the convention. He said there were a couple of stories. One was the guy who used to make them had a patent, passed on, and the family would not release it. Second was the machine used to make them broke a specialized part and there was an issue whether it could be fabricated and at what cost. I question the patent story since one is only good for 17 years and those things were around in the 70's when I did football, so the latter sounds more plausible. Plus I did a patent search and couldn't find it.

Anyway, he's looking into a mechanical one which may be what I've seen on some other site. Last I knew Honig's still had them. There is a recent thread on this infamous piece of equipment:
http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=104479

[massref]

Golf pencils are free, and it doesn't take two hands to use it. If you want an eraser, cut a regular pencil in half and sharpen it. Bullet pencils take twice as long to write down information.

[NewRefInGA]

I bought a bunch from Honig's last football season. I assume they still have them. The other thing I got from honig's is a black plastic "wallet" in which I keep my game cards for football.

I had assumed that I would use that in Lacrosse as well., though it sounds like there is more of a time crunch to record the information quickly and get play restarted in Lacrosse than in football. The getting the bullet pencil out and the card out of the wallet may prove too cumbersome.

I'm scheduled to do my first game next Saturday.

With that in mind, here's a question about Mechanic #3 from the MDOC training manual- regarding Preparation with coaches

"Both officials, if possible. should meet with the visiting coach first, then meet with the home team".

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. First, traffic being what it is, there's a good chance that I will arrive at the field before the visiting team, should I wait until the visitors arrive to talk to them before talking to the home team?

Also, from a logistics standpoint, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If I speak to the visitors first, then speak to the home team, and the home coach informs me of special situations, or field conditions, I would then have to go find the visiting coach again and speak with him.

If I spoke to the home team coach first, I could relay that information to the visiting coach in the normal course of my discussion.

Seems like this could be a waste of time.

It also seems like I could be WAY overthinking this, but I'm new to Lacrosse officiating, and want to be as prepared as possible.

When it all comes down to it, I'm gonna follow the lead of the Referee anyway, but I just thought I'd ask.

[laxzeeb]

Indeed there is more of a time crunch in lacrosse to get the info on your card and restart the game. As far as the mechanic, in my view, it is the ideal. In reality with the exception of perhaps some varsity games you are correct, there isn't time. If the team bus isn't caught in traffic you are etc. More often than not the biggest goal is to get the game started on time, so formalities take a back seat.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I'm scheduled to do my first game next Saturday.

So we'll hear from you on Sunday. This game is not simple and you've got to make 4 dimensional decisions in a wink, so please don't expect your senior football ref clarity to carry over into this game. Do your best. Then come here and whine.



"Both officials, if possible. should meet with the visiting coach first, then meet with the home team".

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. First, traffic being what it is, there's a good chance that I will arrive at the field before the visiting team, should I wait until the visitors arrive to talk to them before talking to the home team?

As the Zeeb said, your main job is to certify the coaches, secure the numbers of their captains and in-homes, and introduce yourself. Let the senior guy do this and smile warmly.

Also, from a logistics standpoint, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If I speak to the visitors first, then speak to the home team, and the home coach informs me of special situations, or field conditions, I would then have to go find the visiting coach again and speak with him.

You're right, but you're over thinking. Just follow your senior guy around, and smile warmly. You'll find out that the home coach and the visiting coach are great friends and whatever you hope to relay has already been discussed.


It also seems like I could be WAY overthinking this, but I'm new to Lacrosse officiating, and want to be as prepared as possible.

When it all comes down to it, I'm gonna follow the lead of the Referee anyway, but I just thought I'd ask.

You're willingness to prepare is admirable but........look, buddy........you're first few games you're going to be disoriented and useful only for calling the far sideline. We as a fraternity have a better chance of losing you if we enable your belief that you can be serviceable than we do if we set your expectations at a more reasonable level.

Lacrosse is relentless. The play doesn't stop unless you blow the whistle, and you'd better be real clear why you did that. I'm a lot like you in that I'm very analytical, but this is a disadvantage in lax. Ref like a water bug until you at least are comfortable with the flow.

Once you get the hang of it it's zen, but getting there is a bear!

[LaxRef]

"Both officials, if possible. should meet with the visiting coach first, then meet with the home team".

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. First, traffic being what it is, there's a good chance that I will arrive at the field before the visiting team, should I wait until the visitors arrive to talk to them before talking to the home team?

It's this way because that's the way it was when I started editing the manual and it didn't occur to me to change it! I've made a note to revisit it next year; I agree it makes more sense to talk to the home coach first.

[NewRefInGA]

LaxRef, I didn't mean to sound critical. I hope you didn't take it that way.

(I also didn't know that you wrote the manual).

That being said, I figured I was overthinking it. I know that I am going to make mistakes, and I will learn from them. But I want to be sure that I eliminate those that I can.

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I started calling football was that if you looked like you knew what you were doing- if you were in the right place at the right time, that can carry you a long way. The other stuff will come with time and (a lot) of repetition.

Thank you all very much for putting up with my questions, and providing a lot of very helpful feedback.

I'm really looking forward to getting out on the field and working the game. I'm sure I will have plenty more questions after the game.

[LaxRef]

LaxRef, I didn't mean to sound critical. I hope you didn't take it that way.

Not at all. It's a valid point, and I agree with you. And if I didn't agree with you, I'd tell you why (civilly, of course).

Good luck with your first game!

[laxzeeb]

LR's plan to revisit and potentially change the mechanic in terms of starting with the home team is a good one because it will save time. It is more common than not that you will have time constraints so you do things to make sure the whistle blows when it is supposed to. If it is a Saturday morning game where there is time to follow the mechanic it should be done as a matter of order and tradition. Otherwise, you adapt because everyone expects the game to start at the scheduled time. I've learned that is rule #1 in a variety of ways, plus start sooner, done sooner. Let us know how your first game goes and good luck.

[massref]

It also makes sense to talk with the home team first because if a team is late it would be the visiting team (most of the time-- I did have a game where the home team delayed the game because they were late to the field).

[massref]

Link for Bullet Pencils:
https://www.cliffkeen.com/shop.cgi?product_id=157

[OldLaxer]

How do you guys deal with the need for reading glasses? I can see a mile without any problem but can't even read my watch without my cheaters. I've tried arm stretchers but they don't seem to work anymore. :concerned

[laxzeeb]

I just keep a pair in my shirt pocket and a spare in my bag. The only time it is a pain is when I also wear sunglasses. I can get by without them if I am just making marks on the scorecard but if I have to check it out they come.

[shrekjr]

This has just recently become a huge problem for me. I wear contacts and could see the game great but couldn't see anything I was writing on the scorecard. At the advice of my eye doctor and against my better judgement, I tried wearing a distance contact and near contact. Much to my surprise, it appears to be working. I have done three games now and I'm very happy with the results to the extent that I'm now wearing this setup full-time for a month to see if I want to do it permanently or not. I can now see up close, and I can see far away. The only problem seems to be in the 3-5 foot range where things tend to be a bit blurry but I can live with that.

[OldLaxer]

I was wondering if anyone had tried that route. Did it take long to adjust to the two different lenses?

[LaxRef]

I was wondering if anyone had tried that route. Did it take long to adjust to the two different lenses?

Some people have Lasik surgery done in one eye only for just that reason, so I guess people adjust. I have an officiating colleague who did that.

[shrekjr]

I'm stll adjuting but it sems to be wrking vely wll. :imparied:

Seriously, everyone I've talked to that did it, or knows someone who did it, all seem to be very pleased. I don't know how long it will take to adjust without noticing a difference at all, but I've had very little trouble so far, other than that middle range that reading glasses will cure if you still want to carry them.

[spenny]

This has just recently become a huge problem for me. I wear contacts and could see the game great but couldn't see anything I was writing on the scorecard. At the advice of my eye doctor and against my better judgement, I tried wearing a distance contact and near contact. Much to my surprise, it appears to be working. I have done three games now and I'm very happy with the results to the extent that I'm now wearing this setup full-time for a month to see if I want to do it permanently or not. I can now see up close, and I can see far away. The only problem seems to be in the 3-5 foot range where things tend to be a bit blurry but I can live with that.

my eyes are now watering just from reading this, let alone trying it!

[massref]

I was wondering if anyone had tried that route. Did it take long to adjust to the two different lenses?

It probably works well, but don't you get dizzy running in circles??? :chuckle: