Inappropriate contact

[3rdPersonPlural]

I heard on the news that an NFL official got fined a game check for hauling a miscreant out of a fistfight.

2 questions:

1) How far are you willing to go to untangle a fistfight on your field?

2) How come my game check isn't $8,150.00?

[Get in Shape]

1) Not very far
2) Maybe if you got a mileage stipend from Mars it would be

[PlayOn]

Can you post this article?

I will try to put myself between the kids if it's getting tense but if they are throwing punches I would not physically get involved because of the litigious society we live in. I'd hate to be holding one kid off and he gets clocked.

Maybe when the MLL picks up steam you'll get a nice sexy game check. Until then enjoy that beer money.

[CardinalPuff]

I'd hate to be holding one kid off and he gets clocked.

they are wearing protection and carrying weapons, I don't want to get hit...

[Snake~eyes]

I heard on the news that an NFL official got fined a game check for hauling a miscreant out of a fistfight.

Here's the video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=cA4T5iRERo0

And an article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3171273


1) How far are you willing to go to untangle a fistfight on your field?

Not willing to get involved at all, I'd rather not get punched. I will and have gotten involved prior to punches being thrown.


2) How come my game check isn't $8,150.00?

Maybe because your game isn't nationally televised and has a lot of money involved in it? Maybe.

[laxzeeb]

I think Jim Quirk took action because he finally had enough of hearing the players' comments on the NFL's new way too ugly referee uniforms. :naughty:

[inblack]

I think Jim Quirk took action because he finally had enough of hearing the players' comments on the NFL's new way too ugly referee uniforms. :naughty:

I'm sure there is more truth to this than we can imagine!:laugh:

1) Here in the Box we will wait for them to tire themselves out, They have padding and they are only hurting themselves. So why make it worse. (yup i have been punched before, and I'm certian it will happen again)
BUT if one falls to the floor, gets pushed up to the boards - or otherwise can't defend themselves then you have to stop it.
Lying on top of them or somehow using your own mass to prevent them from moving will typically end it.
It's all experience.

2) $8100.00 eh, is that in Canadian? It's worth more!

[PlayOn]

Do you still have to kick $4 to your assignor in the NFL? Maybe they'll only dock him for $8,146.

[laxfan25]

Hey, I for one actually like the new NFL uniforms - I think they're cool-looking, quite unique and make the "normal" ones look blah.

[gripitandripit]

I'm not an official, but I feel like Quirk's actions, while probably not "inappropriate", just weren't smart. I understand his position was that he wanted to keep the game under his control, but he's the only one that's going to get hurt by getting in between very large, very strong, very aggressive athletes wearing protective gear. Let them have their little spat, penalize appropriately and move on.

[LaxRef]

One of the top legal experts on officiating issues, who often writes for Referee magazine, says that your potential liability if far less if you try to stop the fight than if you just let them beat the crap out of each other. You do need to be careful not to grab one guy and give the other guy free shots.

I'm trying to get USL to establish a policy on this, but the insurance company is using the ostrich approach.

[MElaxRef]

You do need to be careful not to grab one guy and give the other guy free shots.

The last fight that I handled started with A2 going into the crease after the home team keeper, B1. The ball boy got there before I did and joined right in.

So, I hauled the ball boy out of the scuffle to ensure a fair fight. :chuckle:

[LaxRef]

The last fight that I handled started with A2 going into the crease after the home team keeper, B1. The ball boy got there before I did and joined right in.

So, I hauled the ball boy out of the scuffle to ensure a fair fight. :chuckle:

Geez, I've never heard of the ball boy getting into a fight before. I guess you have to eject him.

I worked three games at a box league on Saturday. It was a little rough. There were ejections for checking someone over the boards, spearing, and for two guys almost fighting (USCs assessed) and then jawing at each other on the way to the penalty ares (two more USCs = ejection). Then there was a 2-on-0 fast break, where the goalie came out and checked the guy with the ball and broke his own wrist on the play. But no non-playing personnel getting into fights. :chuckle:

[Rileylax]

HS level: don't touch them...there is a liability issue. NCAA:...guess? Box: no way...let them get exhausted.

[NewRefInGA]

In HS football- in EVERY pregame- we make sure to mention DO NOT TOUCH THE PLAYERS.

Get between the before it happens if you can, but once it starts, get out of the way and take down numbers. The coaches are responsible for the players.

I'm not gonna get hit (with a fist or a lawsuit).

[LaxRef]

In HS football- in EVERY pregame- we make sure to mention DO NOT TOUCH THE PLAYERS.

Get between the before it happens if you can, but once it starts, get out of the way and take down numbers. The coaches are responsible for the players.

I'm not gonna get hit (with a fist or a lawsuit).

And yet one of the top legal experts in officiating issues says you have more liability if you let the players pound on each other. In addition, the rules say anyone leaving the bench area and coming onto the field--and that includes coaches--is expelled from the game, so in lacrosse, at least, it would be very easy to argue in court that it is not the coaches' responsibility.

I know this is a difficult issue and I tried to get the following statement approved through US Lacrosse's insurance carrier:

Officials should do whatever they can to end the fight without becoming physically involved. Blow the whistle repeatedly as close to the participants as possible and repeatedly yell, for example, "Blue 42! White 10! Stop it!" This is often enough to get them to stop, and repeating the numbers out loud will help you remember which players are to be expelled.

If this is not successful, the officials may attempt to separate the players involved if they are reasonably sure they can do so without endangering the safety of the players or the officials.

When attempting to separate players, the officials must never grab a player from behind, since that allows the other combatant to hit a defenseless opponent. Instead, if you feel like you can do so safely, get your hands between the players and separate them.

As soon as possible, send all players to their bench areas while you report the expulsions and any other penalties involved. Have the in-home for each team serve the expulsion penalties; never put two players who have just been in a fight together in the penalty area since that simply invites a second fight.

I feel this does a good job of addressing the key issues while being sufficiently flexible to allow the officials to defend separating the players ("I felt that there was less risk involved in separating them than in allowing them to continue punching each other") or not separating them ("The way they were swinging fists and sticks, I did not feel that I could attempt to separate the players without risking my own personal safety").

The insurance company didn't want to make a statement, and at the time I got no support from US Lacrosse. I just resubmitted the issue to TPTB and will let you know if I get any resolution.

[laxzeeb]

And yet one of the top legal experts in officiating issues says you have more liability if you let the players pound on each other. * * * The insurance company didn't want to make a statement, and at the time I got no support from US Lacrosse. I just resubmitted the issue to TPTB and will let you know if I get any resolution.

My work time for the past 25 years has been spent defending people and businesses that have been sued and I deal with insurance carriers on a daily basis. Our firm has successfully defended sports participant lawsuits and advocated for making the standard for liability in my state a very high one. Thankfully, in none of those has a referee been named.

I believe the choice of conduct by an official in the circumstances of a fight should be directed at personal safety with limited regard to the issue of fear of a lawsuit. First off, in most states, in order to prove fault in a sports participant injury case, typically it must be shown that the conduct was either intentional or at least reckless. Mere negligence is insufficient. Injury lawyers like negligence cases and generally don't like those requiring proof of more. Realize most work on a contingency fee so if they lose they don't get paid. The standard, thus, is going to deter an attorney from taking these types of cases unless there is a really serious injury that could lead to a large payday. One of our cases, for example, did involve lacrosse and violent conduct which led to paralysis. We got our client dismissed from the case. So if possible, check to see if the law in your state requires proof to the high standard, not just negligence.

Second, in terms of the "lawsuit factor" the real problem with the cases is not the risk of liability [a judgment for damages] but the costs of going through it, including legal fees. This is where, as I understand it, the USL insurance program comes in. My understanding is member officials have liability protection and what most may not know is that if a lawsuit is filed pertaining to referee activities, not only does insurance cover a potential damages award up to the policy limit, but the insurance carrier also hires the attorney and pays the costs of defense. This should be no different than what is typically provided in your automobile liablity or homeowners coverage. The carrier needs to be notified if an official is named in a lawsuit and then the insured needs to cooperate in the defense. Generally, the main cost is more the time commitment, not actual dollars. More information on the insurance protection provided is here: http://www.bollingerlax.com/12.04.07NEW/general-liability.asp

I am not at all surprised the insurance carrier did not want to go along with any statement about what an official should or should not do in the event of a fight and I'm not sure I would expect it from USL either. Unfortunately, statements like this can end up being lawyer fodder. Assume in some manner the statement was formally adopted in such a manner that it governed our conduct. The statement has the potential in my line of work to become known as the "standard of care" and while that typically forms the basis for a claim of negligence, if we are in a state where recklessness is the required level of proof, it can also form a stronger basis for a lawyer trying to make a claim that the official recklessly disregarded the advisory conduct.

Frankly, I prefer in this situation that things be left more vague. That way, in dealing with what I believe is probably the most difficult aspect of officiating, there is no potential checklist or sequence of conduct that must be considered while going through trying to react to what is tough enough to react to in and of itself. However, my recall of the MDOC training manual is that it states an official should not use physical means to try to stop a fight. As it stands, that statement could be a potential line of defense to a lawsuit claim. It should be made known that officials are not there to physically stop a fight.

I concur, this is a very, if not the most, difficult area to deal with in sports. I also realize this is just my judgment, but at least a somewhat experienced one. Others are free to differ. I do wonder whether the rules should allow a coach to enter the field for the sole purpose of ending his team's player from participation in a fight. But otherwise I'm more comfortable with where things stand.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I was told to blow my whistle as loud as I can as close to the combatants as possible and to watch for errant blows that might hurt me.

When they seperate (as fighters inevitably do), step between them, blow that whistle like the Angel Gabriel, and when the kids have paused, tell everyone in no uncertain terms to take a knee.

I was also told that pre-emptive officiating (like flagging offsetting technicals for kids who are obviously not getting along) and verbally warning folks who are starting to see red is the right way to stop fights - that is, before they start.

"I'm out here to officiate lacrosse, not your anger management issues, 10. Play the game the right way or go sit down. You don't want me to make that decision for you."

[LaxRef]

I was also told that pre-emptive officiating (like flagging offsetting technicals for kids who are obviously not getting along) and verbally warning folks who are starting to see red is the right way to stop fights - that is, before they start.

By rule, you cannot give technicals for conduct fouls for actions between opposing players, only USCs. I know many officials still do it, but that clause was removed years ago. The CF is for player-to-official or coach-to-official issues, not player-to-player, coach-to-player, or player-to-coach issues.

But the idea is correct: two guys going chest-to-chest yelling at each other, flag 'em both and let them cool off in the box for 1:00 to 3:00. And in NFHS, their next USC is an expulsion.

[laxzeeb]

I verified what I said earlier about the MDOC manual, as below. I'm comfortable with it.

Handling Fights Mechanic 17

What if there is a fight during one of your games? Teamwork-between officials, and between officials and coaches-is essential!

The official nearest incident:
. Takes a position on the field near the incident, facing the bench area if possible.
. Attempts to break up the fight by giving verbal commands and blowing the whistle. (He should not try to separate players or use any other physical means.)
. Records the numbers of all players involved on his scorecard, with the sequence of involvement if possible.
. Watches his partner's back!

[spenny]

The CF is for player-to-official or coach-to-official issues, not player-to-player, coach-to-player, or player-to-coach issues.

what is CF?

[laxzeeb]

what is CF?

Conduct foul, one of the technical fouls in the same category as holds, wards, illegal procedure and so on.

[3rdPersonPlural]

By rule, you cannot give technicals for conduct fouls for actions between opposing players, only USCs. I know many officials still do it, but that clause was removed years ago. The CF is for player-to-official or coach-to-official issues, not player-to-player, coach-to-player, or player-to-coach issues.

But the idea is correct: two guys going chest-to-chest yelling at each other, flag 'em both and let them cool off in the box for 1:00 to 3:00. And in NFHS, their next USC is an expulsion.

This is for pushing and bumping off the ball and obviously tuning up for bigger things. I call one for interference (impeding the free movement of an offensive player) and the other for a moving pick (impeding the free movement of a defensive player while moving).

It's close enough for jazz, and no coach has ever complained