Game independence

[LaxRef]

I think we would mostly agree that we try to officiate games in a way that makes them independent. Each game, the score starts out 0-0, the players have no fouls recorded, the coaches have no USCs, and we don't hold something against a coach, player, or team that happened in a previous game.

But are there exceptions? For example, consider the situation from another thread: A1 is sent out for a 1:00 personal foul. Two seconds into the penalty, Coach A subs A2 into the penalty area and brings A1 to the bench area. The table personnel inform the officials, who warn the coach that this is not acceptable. They return A1 to the penalty area and warn Coach A that further violations will result in a USC.

The same officials work a game for this coach later in the season, and he attempts to pull the same maneuver. I don't know about you, but personally I would immediately go to the USC because at that point I know he knows that he's not allowed to do it and that he's doing it intentionally despite knowing that. That, to me, is a USC even though I warned him in a previous game.

It seems like the right call to me, but it also seems like I'm basing a foul call on something that happened in a previous game. What do you think?

(BTW, this is all hypothetical.)

[lehighvalleylax]

Great question.

Unless he is doing this with the intention of getting A1 into the game early, I would continue to warn on a per game basis. I wonder where the real advantage is. The real problem is the officiating crews that just allow it happen and therefore give tacit approval. The coach does it again cause he thinks sometimes it is ok.

Each game may be independent, but there are things we take from games earlier in the year or previous years when it has to do with safety or deliberate cheating. I don't think we start a game with bias, but there are things we may expect or see easier.

[Snake~eyes]

I would avoid carrying this type of knowledge from one game over to the next. I mean there could be other reasons he's doing it again. Maybe he forgot? Or maybe the officials told him he was allowed to! You never know.


I think we would mostly agree that we try to officiate games in a way that makes them independent. Each game, the score starts out 0-0, the players have no fouls recorded, the coaches have no USCs, and we don't hold something against a coach, player, or team that happened in a previous game.

But are there exceptions? For example, consider the situation from another thread: A1 is sent out for a 1:00 personal foul. Two seconds into the penalty, Coach A subs A2 into the penalty area and brings A1 to the bench area. The table personnel inform the officials, who warn the coach that this is not acceptable. They return A1 to the penalty area and warn Coach A that further violations will result in a USC.

The same officials work a game for this coach later in the season, and he attempts to pull the same maneuver. I don't know about you, but personally I would immediately go to the USC because at that point I know he knows that he's not allowed to do it and that he's doing it intentionally despite knowing that. That, to me, is a USC even though I warned him in a previous game.

It seems like the right call to me, but it also seems like I'm basing a foul call on something that happened in a previous game. What do you think?

(BTW, this is all hypothetical.)

[laxzeeb]

I'm concerned of the precedent it would set to some extent and understand the points raised in the above two posts. One thing in our area is that for all called USC's a report must be turned in. They are discussed at the next official's meeting. The coaches know this. Other questionable actions are also discussed and this is the type that might come up. Not everyone can get to all the meetings but chances are at least one on a three man crew was there. So the word gets around to most of the refs, meaning that if the coach does it again and gets flagged it is because the situation was made known.

[Lax Fan26]

LR, I think that while the official must start each game with as clean of a slate as possible (this can be tougher in a tourney were you have to ref the same problem player the very next game), it is fair to have a discrete conversation with your crew so that you both/all three have the same "attention" for that problem player of the last game.

This doesn't mean that you skew your calls against that player but rather you just keep what happened in mind. Some players have a blow-up in one game and are able to compose themself for the next game, while a few players seem at risk of UC all the time.

[3rdPersonPlural]

There are only 2 leagues within a 100 mile radius of my home. That means that - middle school and 5/6 included, I see the same 20 coaches and the same 20 teams all season every season. Add to this the fact that there is very little turnover among these coaches, and the result is we know the peccadillos of every coach we work with - for better or for worse. By the end of the season, we know a lot of the kids, and they know us.

We try to be professional and start every game with a clean slate, but I'm sure that experience colors our opinions. However, I get along fine with the coaches, and kids who had gotten overheated in prior games usually come over before games to apologize.

[eme]

One way to diffuse the original situation (or a situation like it) is to be proactive and remind coaches in a generic way, "Guys, we've had some issues this season with our table areas. Just to clarify, here is how we'd like to do it today to avoid any misunderstandings..."

[CardinalPuff]

regarding this situation:

But are there exceptions? For example, consider the situation from another thread: A1 is sent out for a 1:00 personal foul. Two seconds into the penalty, Coach A subs A2 into the penalty area and brings A1 to the bench area. The table personnel inform the officials, who warn the coach that this is not acceptable. They return A1 to the penalty area and warn Coach A that further violations will result in a USC.

suppose nobody notices the error and an assistant coach then substitutes A1 back into the game before his penalty expired?

this happened in a game i worked last season...and Team A scored on the possession. I know what I did. How about you guys?

[3rdPersonPlural]

I would be aggrieved!

Under federation rules, what happens if a player who is supposed to be in the box scores, or even contributes to a scoring play?

Can we legally disallow the goal?

[Woodenstick]

NFHS rule 4-9-j states that a goal is not allowed if an attacking player releases from the penalty area early. So if the player who is supposed to be serving a penaqlty enters the field, no goal even if he had nothing to do with scoring the goal.

[Woodenstick]

I think every team starts fresh, but that does not mean that you don't take into account all information about possible problems in figuring out how you will call the game and position yourself.

The difference is that teams are penalized for what they do in THIS game, but you use all the information at your disposal to call the best game possible. Based on existing information, you might change your tendencies for certain calls, maybe you have two teams with bad blood, so you resolve to call a tighter game than normal. Or you look for certain problems.

On the other hand, I would be uncomfortable with calling the game tighter on one team (or player) and not the other based on this knowledge. Then you aren't calling the game evenly, even if the team or player arguably deserves it. Anyway, my 2 cents.

[inblack]

couple of things in this thread:

All USC result in a report and a subsequent meeting... well then if you gave the USC for the first infraction then discussed the incident at the meeting all the Officials in the area would know that this behaviour is not permitted. So the team and the coach would get a nice consistent message.

Start fresh every game... yes but we all know the teams and coaches we ref often, I know that certian players like to grab the back of the jersey and hold, some coaches like to make thier way all the way down to the goal line, teams that are hot rivals etc .... Sure i take that into consideration, I talk to my partners about it.
The wandering coach, while on bench side all i have to do is quietly remind him. The player holding, 1 or two technical fouls an he knows I can see his trick, next game he sees me he wont even try it. Read 3pp's post, the players learn the referee and they respect him/her and thier dedcisions. A good player/coach.team will adjust his game very quickly to the Referees
I expect my partners to tell me if in thier experience 19 Blue likes to go for the ankles. Then Yes i keep a vigil for that foul. It's about protecting the safety of the players.

eme has a great point about the 'generic' discussion with the coaches. and that can work for all the things I have listed.

[MElaxRef]

Terry Cullen's presentation at last year's convention on the difference between a referee and crew chief contained some interesting thoughts on this topic.

In summary, Terry recommended learning what you can about both teams before a big game, by reading press reports and calling the referees for both teams' previous games and for the teams' previous head-to-head game. Terry recommends using the information gained to set the tone in pre-game meetings with the crew and the coaches.

In Terry's example, a playoff rematch between two teams with reputations for chippy play and a fight in their previous game will probably go better if it is called tightly from the opening whistle.