10-sec. Count Quiz

[eme]

Please use 2008 NCAA and 2008 NFHS rules to answer:

Team B has a 20-second clearing count going as B1 approaches the midline. Before he crosses the midline, he drops the ball which now crosses the midline. The ball is now loose just over the midline (Zone 3 for some people).

a) B1 kicks/bats the ball back into his Zone 1 (A's attack goal area)
b) A1 kicks/bats the ball in the same direction into his attack goal area

The loose ball in both a) and b) above now exits A's attack goal area and rolls into the "alley" outside the attack goal area.

What is the status of any count at this point?

[hymie]

NCAA -- There is no count of any kind going on at this point in time.

Whomever should next gain posession will have 10 seconds to get the ball into his attack area.

[cpete59]

B's 20 second clearing count ends when the loose ball makes contact on or over the midline. No 10 second count begins because there was no possession when the ball moved across the midline (aka Zone 3).

NCAA: The fact that the ball travelled into the attack area triggers the revised rule 4-14 (pg 45). There is no mention as to how the ball arrives into the attack area, so in the case above, a 10 second count for team A would begin as soon as the ball exits the attack area.

NHFS: No count would be active.

[hymie]

NCAA: The fact that the ball travelled into the attack area triggers the revised rule 4-14 (pg 45). There is no mention as to how the ball arrives into the attack area, so in the case above, a 10 second count for team A would begin as soon as the ball exits the attack area.

I humbly disagree. The first paragraph of 4-14 refers specifically to "a team in possession." The second paragraph starts with (if my grammar recollection is correct) a dangling participle, which makes it confusing, but it's my understanding that the second paragraph (about the ball leaving the attack area) depends on first being brought into the attack area by a team in possession.

[LaxRef]

I humbly disagree. The first paragraph of 4-14 refers specifically to "a team in possession." The second paragraph starts with (if my grammar recollection is correct) a dangling participle, which makes it confusing, but it's my understanding that the second paragraph (about the ball leaving the attack area) depends on first being brought into the attack area by a team in possession.

I'm not looking at the rule right now, but I think it's once the ball enters the attack area after a 10-second count has started. So, A1 has possession in Zone 3, 10-count is on, he drops the ball, it rolls into Zone 4, then rolls out: new 10-second count even though the ball didn't enter Zone 4 in possession.

Right?

[eme]

I am reading 4-14's first 2 paragraphs in NCAA the same way hymie is.
We all agree that once a 10-sec. count starts somewhere on the field, then a loose ball enters the attack goal area...the new rule goes into effect.

What is less clear is when there is no count going...then a loose ball enters the
attack goal area. I don't think the new NCAA rule kicks in at that point.

Maybe clarification in Philly at the rules clinic?

[MElaxRef]

NCAA: Rule 4, AR 60, seems to cover situation [a]. 20-second count is over when the ball crosses the midline. Ball booted back across midline. Clearing team gets fresh 20-second count if they gain possession. No mention of a 10-second count on the clearing team. Could be clearer.

[eme]

You miss my/our point. With no count going on that ball has been booted back into the other team's attack goal area ( both attack areas would qualify for this scenario, actually) and by a literal reading of the start of paragraph 2 of 4-14 "Once in the attack area..."

The ball indeed has entered that attack goal area...with no clarification of how it got there and there was no count going on....
The question , then, is do the new NCAA rules now go into effect if that loose
keeps bouncing right on out of that area?

[NCLAXREF]

This might have been addressed already but we recieved an email rule memo dated oct 25th... it says
3. Rule 4-13-c, Ten-second count. The new rule regarding the ten-second count on a ball being thrown outside the attack area by the offense will be enforced in all situations ( e.g., a shot which hits the goalpost or a player and rebounds outside of the attack area).



A new approved ruling was added to assist with this rule:



SITUATION: B1 throws a clearing pass to B2 that goes over his head and touches the ground across midfield. Does a 10 second count start when the ball touches the ground across midfield? RULING: Yes.

I have not found this new AR in the NCAA book. If someone can clear things up that would be great.

[eme]

Thank you. I think this AR answers most of my original question in that a 10-sec. count starts when a) B1 carries it across midfield b) B1 passes it across and it hits the ground over midfield. So...with a 10-sec. count now started...the new 4-14 NCAA kicks into effect when that ball goes into the attack box.

BUT....what if on B's clear, A1 knocks the loose ball over midfield? Does the 10-sec. count for Team B begin as in the new AR?

[eme]

Thinking about this some more...what I am looking for is language like this:

"Any loose ball crossing on or over the midfield line that ends a 20-second count
will always result in a 10-sec count starting for the attacking team once it hits the ground or a player in Zone 3."

[3rdPersonPlural]

The way I see it, the moment the ball crosses the midfield line, the 10 second count starts, and continues until the ball goes into zone 4 or A gains possession.

In both of your scenarios, eme, neither has happened, although the ball has travelled a long way. B's 10 second count is still on.

[Woodenstick]

As noted by NCLAX, the October 25 memo cited above contains a ruling that did not seem to make it into the rulebook. In fact, I believe that "ruling" is wrong.

I assume that a ruling that is not in the rulebook is invalid or of no value.
Therefore we must rely on the rule itself, 4-14, which states "A team IN POSSESSION OF THE BALL must bring the ball into the attack area within 10 seconds of crossing the center line."

Under Rule 4-5g, a ball in flight is only in possession if caught by a teammate.

Therefore I think that a ball thrown (or kicked) over the center line that is loose and not in possession of the clearing/attacking team in zone 3 does not start a 10 count. It does end the 20 count.

[LaxRef]

As noted by NCLAX, the October 25 memo cited above contains a ruling that did not seem to make it into the rulebook. In fact, I believe that "ruling" is wrong.

I assume that a ruling that is not in the rulebook is invalid or of no value.
Therefore we must rely on the rule itself, 4-14, which states "A team IN POSSESSION OF THE BALL must bring the ball into the attack area within 10 seconds of crossing the center line."

Under Rule 4-5g, a ball in flight is only in possession if caught by a teammate.

Therefore I think that a ball thrown (or kicked) over the center line that is loose and not in possession of the clearing/attacking team in zone 3 does not start a 10 count. It does end the 20 count.

That ruling may have not been made in time to make it into the rulebook. Let me see what I can find out.

[massref]

This ruling from the NCAA memo doesn't sit right with my reading the rule book,
"SITUATION: B1 throws a clearing pass to B2 that goes over his head and touches the ground across midfield. Does a 10 second count start when the ball touches the ground across midfield? RULING: Yes."

The way the rule book reads to me, the ball must first enter the attack area and then any contact with the ground outside of the attack area in any way initiates a new 10-second count. I just don't think that the AR in the memo is in line with the rule book.

[NCLAXREF]

I for one am not studing that part of the rule, becasue I know there has to be clarification from the powers that be before we can more ahead.

I also feel if the memo is correct - then we should change our mechanics. We should count in the direction of the box that a team must enter. I know we have strong hands, and many basketball guys switch arms as counts change, but being able to look at a partner or official (if I were a coach) and see a count and know who the count is against, will become an important part of this rule.

[NCLAXREF]

First does anyone have any thoughts pro/con to my mechanics suggestion above?

Second - Question: A in their attack box, loose ball rolls out the box towards midfield; 10-second count begins, and as the ball comes to midfield B1 goes offside or another tech violation, "Playon"; A picks the ball up in the offensive half and is going towards their box.

My questions is at the play on for the offside do we stop our 10 count against the offense?

My answer is yes but looking for those with more wisdom.

:dummy: :DOH:

[LaxRef]

First does anyone have any thoughts pro/con to my mechanics suggestion above?

Second - Question: A in their attack box, loose ball rolls out the box towards midfield; 10-second count begins, and as the ball comes to midfield B1 goes offside or another tech violation, "Playon"; A picks the ball up in the offensive half and is going towards their box.

My questions is at the play on for the offside do we stop our 10 count against the offense?

My answer is yes but looking for those with more wisdom.

:dummy: :DOH:

You always restart the 10-second count for Team A when there is a play-on for a foul by Team B (both NCAA and NFHS).

Also, I asked about whether the 10-count will start when a loose ball crosses midfield and was told that an A.R. may have been inadvertently left out of the 2008 Rule Book. I expect this will be addressed Saturday at the COC meeting.

[MElaxRef]

Also, I was told that an A.R. may have been inadvertently left out of the 2008 Rule Book. I expect this will be addressed Saturday at the COC meeting.

An A.R. inadvertently left out of the rule book?!? Like that has never happened before!?! :OMG:

Seldom more than once or twice per year.

[cpete59]

Please use 2008 NCAA and 2008 NFHS rules to answer:

Team B has a 20-second clearing count going as B1 approaches the midline. Before he crosses the midline, he drops the ball which now crosses the midline. The ball is now loose just over the midline (Zone 3 for some people).

a) B1 kicks/bats the ball back into his Zone 1 (A's attack goal area)
b) A1 kicks/bats the ball in the same direction into his attack goal area

The loose ball in both a) and b) above now exits A's attack goal area and rolls into the "alley" outside the attack goal area.

What is the status of any count at this point?
I was at the convention and heard the NCAA clarification of a loose ball crossing the mid-field line to start the 10 second count. I think I know the answer to the original question of this thread, but wouldn't mind a response from the pro's.

[eme]

Here is what I think I heard at the Saturday NCAA rules clinic.

Team B is clearing and has a 20-sec. count underway. Without an A intervening possession, the loose ball goes over the midline (B passed it over or kicked it over or A kicked/knocked/deflected it over)...the 20-sec. count stops when the ball hits the ground or a player in Zone 3 and a 10-sec. count starts on Team B when the ball hits the ground or a player in Zone 3. As someone said, "There is always a count going on!"

In this same play under NFHS rules, the 20-sec. count would stop as the ball sails over the midline but a B 10-sec. count would not begin in Zone 3 until Team B gains possession.

Although NCAA and NFHS differ slightly as to WHEN that 20-sec. count ends
(NCAA hits ground/player and NFHS has it in midair breaking the midline plane)
for all intents and purposes it really is the same thing barring some ridiculous high pass over midfield that takes a long time to come down and hit the ground in Zone 3.

[cpete59]

I'm confused, B1 clearing the ball, ball then goes loose over midfield ending B's 20 sec count, doesn't B's (not A's) 10 second count begin?

[eme]

Correct. I just fixed it above.

[pboyd]

That's exactly what I heard from Walt Munze at the convention. Seems like the only time there is no count going on in NCAA is when the ball is in the attack area or during a FO prior to possession.

[LaxRef]

That's exactly what I heard from Walt Munze at the convention. Seems like the only time there is no count going on in NCAA is when the ball is in the attack area or during a FO prior to possession.

One thing that we hammered out at dinner at Maggiano's:

Face-off. Ball ends up in Team A's offensive end and goes into Team A's attack area loose. Yell "Play!" and wind arm; everyone is released. The ball gets kicked out of Team A's attack area into Zone 3. Still no count because it is prior to possession after a face-off even though you might consider the face-off to be over.

Make sense?

[eme]

Wouldn't the "everyone is released" clause that goes into effect after the ball enters the attack goal area be the same as a possession since they share a common result=releasing players from their respective areas?

Good question

[LaxRef]

Wouldn't the "everyone is released" clause that goes into effect after the ball enters the attack goal area be the same as a possession since they share a common result=releasing players from their respective areas?

Good question

This was the best we could come up with, since otherwise the question is do you start a 10-count for Team A or a 20-count for Team B?