2008 Rules Exam

[NewRefInGA]

Gentlemen:

I just got my Rule exam tonight, and started to work on it. I'm not sure if there is already a thread on this subject or not, so I thought I'd begin a new one.

As my name indicates, I am new to Lacrosse officiating, but not to officiating in general (I have been an Umpire in Football for 9 yrs).

On the NFHS football exams many of the questions are written somewhat ambiguously, and as I have been working on the Lacrosse test I found some of the same issues.

I was hoping that I could get some clarification from the more experienced people on this forum to make sure I can answer the questions correctly.

General question- is there a difference between "shall" and "must"? For example, "Restarts following a time-out SHALL be" versus "Restarts following a time-out MUST be"

Question:
#10- Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a
20 second clearing count will start and will continue until a clearing
team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line.
While this is true, it is only part of the answer. Rule 4-14 states 4
instances where the count would end: a) the opposing team gains
possession; b) the instance stated above;c) a loose ball breaks
the plane of midfield; d) officials sound whistle to stop play for any
reason.
I may be nitpicking here, but the question as written is only partly
true. Am I reading too much into it?

#23 - It is legal for the crosse to be so constructed that the ball will rest
BEHIND the stop.
I believe this is false- Rule 1-7-1 "The stop shall be constructed so
that the ball will rest ON the stop."

Am I reading too much into that?
#31- "...official finds a stick is too short. This causes the player to receive a
3-minute non-releaseable penalty. the stick may not be used again
in the game"
I believe this is true, but have a question based on the rule:

Rule 5-4 "A player using a crosse found illegal because it was
altered to gain an advantage will receive a 3-minute non-
releaseable penalty and the crosse will remain in the table area for
the remainder of the game"

My question is with the "altered to gain advantage" part. I don't
see how we can make that determination. If it's too short, it's too
short- whether they altered it or not. shouldn't it be 3-minutes
regardless?

[eme]

Gentlemen:

I just got my Rule exam tonight, and started to work on it. I'm not sure if there is already a thread on this subject or not, so I thought I'd begin a new one.

As my name indicates, I am new to Lacrosse officiating, but not to officiating in general (I have been an Umpire in Football for 9 yrs).

On the NFHS football exams many of the questions are written somewhat ambiguously, and as I have been working on the Lacrosse test I found some of the same issues.

I was hoping that I could get some clarification from the more experienced people on this forum to make sure I can answer the questions correctly.

General question- is there a difference between "shall" and "must"? For example, "Restarts following a time-out SHALL be" versus "Restarts following a time-out MUST be" Shall=Must

Question:
#10- Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a
20 second clearing count will start and will continue until a clearing
team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line.
While this is true, it is only part of the answer. Rule 4-14 states 4
instances where the count would end: a) the opposing team gains
possession; b) the instance stated above;c) a loose ball breaks
the plane of midfield; d) officials sound whistle to stop play for any
reason.
I may be nitpicking here, but the question as written is only partly
true. Am I reading too much into it?
Yes. P.S. Don't forget about a play-on.

#23 - It is legal for the crosse to be so constructed that the ball will rest
BEHIND the stop.
I believe this is false- Rule 1-7-1 "The stop shall be constructed so
that the ball will rest ON the stop."

Am I reading too much into that?
Prepositions are important in this question.

#31- "...official finds a stick is too short. This causes the player to receive a
3-minute non-releaseable penalty. the stick may not be used again
in the game"
I believe this is true, but have a question based on the rule:

Rule 5-4 "A player using a crosse found illegal because it was
altered to gain an advantage will receive a 3-minute non-
releaseable penalty and the crosse will remain in the table area for
the remainder of the game"

My question is with the "altered to gain advantage" part. I don't
see how we can make that determination. If it's too short, it's too
short- whether they altered it or not. shouldn't it be 3-minutes
regardless?

Presumably it came out of the box legal and then the player "altered" it by
curring it down or pinching the head or messing wit the strings, etc.

[LaxRef]

"Shall" is used interchangeably with "must."

Also, if a stick fails the field test, it's illegal. We aren't determining who altered it or why or how it came to be that way. I don't care if the kid brings a brand-new stick to the field in a box from the manufacturer, opens the box in front of me, and takes it onto the field holding it with two fingers: if it fails the field test, I'm flagging it.

[Woodenstick]

I think you properly analyzed the other questions. You are right that sometimes the questions are ambiguous, you may know the rule but not know how to anwer the question. Do they want a literally correct hypertechnical answer or one that gets to the jist of the issue? Hmmmm. My recommendation is to cheat off of LR....

[LaxRef]

I think you properly analyzed the other questions. You are right that sometimes the questions are ambiguous, you may know the rule but not know how to anwer the question. Do they want a literally correct hypertechnical answer or one that gets to the jist of the issue? Hmmmm. My recommendation is to cheat off of LR....

Actually, I'm not great with these issues. I always give the answer that is technically correct even if I think it's not what they intended. That way I can always argue that my answer was correct. I figure if I give an answer that's wrong because I think it's what they want and it's not what they want, I don't have a leg to stand on. But usually they don't want the correct answer!

[3rdPersonPlural]

Question:
#10- Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a
20 second clearing count will start and will continue until a clearing
team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line.
While this is true, it is only part of the answer. Rule 4-14 states 4
instances where the count would end: a) the opposing team gains
possession; b) the instance stated above;c) a loose ball breaks
the plane of midfield; d) officials sound whistle to stop play for any
reason.
I may be nitpicking here, but the question as written is only partly
true. Am I reading too much into it?

You're right, there is more to the question than revealed. I would answer true, and leave it at that. A 'carry-over' clear is always a clear, but a clear is not always a 'carry-over'. Modus tolendo ponens.

#23 - It is legal for the crosse to be so constructed that the ball will rest
BEHIND the stop.
I believe this is false- Rule 1-7-1 "The stop shall be constructed so
that the ball will rest ON the stop."

This is a tricky issue. Very rarely will you find a pocket built so that the bottom of the ball sits on the center of the ball stop. My rule of thumb is that the bottom of the ball cannot be lower than the ballstop and throat, so that a roll out test requires the ball to go up and over the stop.




#31- "...official finds a stick is too short. This causes the player to receive a
3-minute non-releaseable penalty. the stick may not be used again
in the game"
I believe this is true, but have a question based on the rule:

Rule 5-4 "A player using a crosse found illegal because it was
altered to gain an advantage will receive a 3-minute non-
releaseable penalty and the crosse will remain in the table area for
the remainder of the game"

My question is with the "altered to gain advantage" part. I don't
see how we can make that determination. If it's too short, it's too
short- whether they altered it or not. shouldn't it be 3-minutes
regardless?

3PP's rule of thumb: If the plastic is illegal, as in too narrow like it has been pinched, or the metal is too short or too long, there is no way in my mind that the stick could have gotten there without premeditation and some scurrelous effort with a hacksaw or mom's oven. 3 minutes and the stick stays with the scorer.

If the pocket is illegal, like too deep or made with clumsy knots that interfere with the roll out test, it is fixable. 1 minute and it can be repaired and reused in that game.

[LaxRef]

If the pocket is illegal, like too deep or made with clumsy knots that interfere with the roll out test, it is fixable. 1 minute and it can be repaired and reused in that game.

No! If it fails the rollout test for a deep pocket ONLY, and if the officials think the deep pocket is why it didn't roll out, it's 1:00 and may return if fixed. If it fails the rollout test [b]for any other reason[/], including knots, it's 3:00 and the stick is confiscated.

Deep pocket is the essentially the only 1:00 penalty for a stick (there's another one about bottom edge of the weaving not properly attached, which I've never seen), and a deep pocket is the only time a stick can be fixed.

This "the stick can return if it's fixable" thing is a myth that must be stamped out!

[eme]

NFHS: illegal stick that is fixable and can return after the penalty are too deep pocket and double ball stop.

NCAA: only deep pocket can return after being fixed.

[3rdPersonPlural]

No! If it fails the rollout test for any other reason, including knots, it's 3:00 and the stick is confiscated.

Deep pocket is the essentially the only 1:00 penalty for a stick (there's another one about bottom edge of the weaving not properly attached, which I've never seen), and a deep pocket is the only time a stick can be fixed.

You're correct, and indeed if the pocket is attached with bulky knots that catch the ball rolling out the side, that's unfixable. I was thinking about a hasty repair that was poorly executed and could be 'fixed' . However, that circumstance is a judgement call and definately an exception, not the rule.


This "the stick can return if it's fixable" thing is a myth that must be stamped out!

There is a grey area. It is 3 minutes if the stick has been 'altered to gain an advantage', and 1 minute for deep pocket or generally illegal pocket (the longitudinal stringing example given). Since I interpret the longitudinal stringing AR to open the door to a broader range of fixable flaws than just depth, I ding 3 for something that is a permanent and irrevokable alteration, and 1 for pocket issues that, like a deep pocket or inadequately secured pocket, can be fixed and are not permanent and intentional modifications that make the stick 'out of spec'.

I trust that my reading has been wrong, but that longitudinal stringing ar opens a door you can drive a truck through.

[eme]

The AR you refer to is page 61 NCAA AR 4. and NFHS page 54 5.4 Situation C.

I would argue that the only objective field test to determine if a "longitudinal (i.e. North-South or up-down) stringing is not firmly attached to the throat stop construction" would be the deep pocket test.

[3rdPersonPlural]

The AR you refer to is page 61 NCAA AR 4. and NFHS page 54 5.4 Situation C.

I would argue that the only objective field test to determine if a "longitudinal (i.e. North-South or up-down) stringing is not firmly attached to the throat stop construction" would be the deep pocket test.

Or the ball stop test. Or the dangling leathers test.

Or we can conclude that 'inadequately finished' is really what the rule writers were trying to convey, and that this condition is a fixable 1 minute penalty in the same spirit as the deep pocket.

I refuse to argue with you, eme, or LaxRef as to what the rule writers thought, because I have less data to work with, but I've always read that AR as license to limit the penalty to 1 minute if the pocket could be quick fixed to make the stick compliant.

You can't weld another 2 inches of shaft on to a short stick, or unpinch a head, but you can retie a knot to make it less likely to interfere with the ball release.

[eme]

But the creation of knots, exotic stringing that a player does to his stick (and which he can fix by simply untying) restricts the ball from coming out is explicitly a 3-min. NR and the stick stays out. NCAA page 62 AR 6

Same language in NFHS page 55 5.4 Situation H

[Woodenstick]

"Question:
#10- Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a
20 second clearing count will start and will continue until a clearing
team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line.
While this is true, it is only part of the answer. Rule 4-14 states 4
instances where the count would end: a) the opposing team gains
possession; b) the instance stated above;c) a loose ball breaks
the plane of midfield; d) officials sound whistle to stop play for any
reason.
I may be nitpicking here, but the question as written is only partly
true. Am I reading too much into it?"

I would answer this question false, because the count may end before someone crosses with possession. So we all know the rule, and we have one vote for true, one vote for false, and one unsure. That is a bad question!

[LaxRef]

"Question:
#10- Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a
20 second clearing count will start and will continue until a clearing
team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line.
While this is true, it is only part of the answer. Rule 4-14 states 4
instances where the count would end: a) the opposing team gains
possession; b) the instance stated above;c) a loose ball breaks
the plane of midfield; d) officials sound whistle to stop play for any
reason.
I may be nitpicking here, but the question as written is only partly
true. Am I reading too much into it?"

I would answer this question false, because the count may end before someone crosses with possession. So we all know the rule, and we have one vote for true, one vote for false, and one unsure. That is a bad question!

I recall this question from last year. I answered "false," because it is false as written. They wanted true. Grrrrrrr.

The correct phrasing if they want it to be "true" should be "Upon gaining possession of the ball in the defensive half of the field, a 20 second clearing count will start. The count will stop if a team player in possession steps on or over the midfield line."

[3rdPersonPlural]

But the creation of knots, exotic stringing that a player does to his stick (and which he can fix by simply untying) restricts the ball from coming out is explicitly a 3-min. NR and the stick stays out. NCAA page 62 AR 6

Same language in NFHS page 55 5.4 Situation H

Oh, indeed, if the stringing is engineered to give the player an unfair advantage, that's 3 minutes. We are in agreement on that.

However, if the pocket is badly repaired, unfinished, or otherwise in need of a quick tweak, I'm inclined to consider the longitudinal loophole. Or at least I had been as that is how I interpreted that AR.

Upon reflection, one cannot expect an official to be able to tell the difference between correctable poor workmanship and intentional craftsmanship, so, yeah, I hereby submit the exclusion of the AR and limiting 1 minute penalties to objectively deep pockets in 2009.

[NewRefInGA]

OK, gentlemen, here's another one...

This one has me confused.

#68- B1 & B2 offside pursuing A1. Official drops flag-slow whistle. A2 commits a technical foul. Referee ends slow whistle, indicated B1, B2 & A2 must serve 30 second technical fouls with ball being awarded to B

In the Rule book, p. 44 4.10 Situation C-A2's foul ends the slow whistle. B1 & B2 serve 30 seconds each. A2 stays in game. Ball awarded to A.

So the answer to the question is FALSE.

I understand that A2's foul ends the slow whistle; and that both B1 &B2 serve 30 seconds. My question is that there really is no punishment for A2.
I realize it would be different if A2's foul was a Personal foul, but it seems that this situation gives A2 license to commit a foul- or at least try to take unfair advantage, since the worst that could happen on a technical foul is that they restart with the ball.

What am I missing?

[3rdPersonPlural]

The way to think about this is that a technical foul on a team in possession is warding or stepping in the crease. Nothing very nasty. A is punished by having to pause their possession. (nothing very nasty).

The team in possession has very little opportunity to commit a technical foul, and less opportunity to commit a personal foul, so don't worry too much about encountering this situation.

[LaxRef]

That, and the fact that they are punished because they lose a free shot opportunity. They were going to have a free shot on goal and get possession back no matter who was closest. That ward or crease violation causes them to lose that opportunity.

[NewRefInGA]

Good points, both. Thank you. I imagine once I get out on the field and get some experience, this type of question will take care of itself.

I may be trying to overthink things on some of these.

[LaxRef]

Good points, both. Thank you. I imagine once I get out on the field and get some experience, this type of question will take care of itself.

I may be trying to overthink things on some of these.

You'll find that in most cases the rules really do make sense and are really fair, but it isn't always obvious why (especially when we get to simultaneous fouls, which you should not worry about in your first year).