Out of bounds situations

[LaxRef]

How would you rule on these?

1) A1 has his stick checked out of his hand by B1. The stick lands on the ground with the ball in it, but the ball is not lodged in the stick in any way. B1 then tries to flip A1's crosse over, using his own crosse, and the ball goes out of bounds. Who is awarded possession?

2) A1 takes a shot, which comes to rest on the outside of the net. The goalie put his crosse inside the goal and hits a part of the net without touching the ball; when that "pops" then net, it sends the ball rolling out of bounds. Who is awarded possession.

Be sure to cite rules, since these are trickier than they appear.

[eme]

Devilish questions. No real solution in the NCAA book. On page 37 there is language in the out of bounds section about awarding the ball to the opposing team of the "player who last touched the ball."

Then on page 40 there is language about "or a player causes the ball to go out of bounds." Alas, that refers to a shot.

If I had to make a decision:
1. I think I could sell giving the ball to A since everyone saw B's motion caused the ball to go out of bounds.
2. I think with this net thing, I'd award the ball to the attacking team since the goalie with that big stick would surely look as if he hit the ball as well as the net in causing that ball to go out of bounds.

[scott68111]

Under NFHS rules 4-6-3a...the ball shall be awarded to any player of the team opposing that of the player who last touched it...So based on this by let letter of the rule it looks like you would award B the ball since A was the last team to touch the ball.

However, in both situations, it was B that caused the ball to go OOB. When B touched the cross if A with the ball still in it, you can intrepret that B touched the ball. In #2, like eme said, it was the kid with the big stick that forced the ball OOB. So you can make a case both ways.

IMO noat a smart thing for a goalie to do since if he left it alone according to 4-21 if the ball is stuck on the outside of the net, it is awarded to the defensive team in the alley.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I am without a rule book, and I seem to recall some infraction that involves messing around with an unmanned stick that contains the ball, but excluding that possibility, and the possibility that the player without the stick is trying to get it back or otherwise participate in the play, B1 knocked the ball out of bounds - touched it last, and created the impetus that caused the OOB, so I'd give the ball to A with my nose wrinkled.

In case 2, the keeper sent the ball OOB. Attack's ball. However, if the keeper had time to reach in to the cage and whack the ball that hard, the official was remiss for not having whistled the ball dead as 'caught in the netting' and awarded it to the d in the alley.

Count on an earful from the keeper's coach.

[LaxRef]

In case 2, the keeper sent the ball OOB. Attack's ball. However, if the keeper had time to reach in to the cage and whack the ball that hard, the official was remiss for not having whistled the ball dead as 'caught in the netting' and awarded it to the d in the alley.

Resting on the back of the netting is clearly different from being "caught in the netting." I have no whistle unless it appears to be caught.

I can envision a situation where the ball comes to rest on the back of the net and an attackman is going to get there before the GK can get there, so the GK tries to knock the ball free through the net. This could be done by hitting the net far away from the ball (like the top of the net when the ball is on the bottom). I admit that I've never seen anything like this during live-ball play.

Personally, I feel if the ball comes to rest and then someone causes the ball to go out of bounds, it should be off that person regardless of who touched it last. But for some reason, that's not what the rules say.

BTW, can anyone imagine anything like this play happening in lacrosse:

http://www.veteranpresence.com/FPOTM/Randle.html

[3rdPersonPlural]

Resting on the back of the netting is clearly different from being "caught in the netting." I have no whistle unless it appears to be caught.

I'm with you there

I can envision a situation where the ball comes to rest on the back of the net and an attackman is going to get there before the GK can get there, so the GK tries to knock the ball free through the net. This could be done by hitting the net far away from the ball (like the top of the net when the ball is on the bottom). I admit that I've never seen anything like this during live-ball play.

Nor have I, but it's a viable play. A clever keeper would rush out and get the interference call, but not all keepers are clever.

Personally, I feel if the ball comes to rest and then someone causes the ball to go out of bounds, it should be off that person regardless of who touched it last. But for some reason, that's not what the rules say.

You have a clincher, don't you! Every ref in the world would call it 'out by keeper, attack ball' if that happened, but.....?

BTW, can anyone imagine anything like this play happening in lacrosse:

http://www.veteranpresence.com/FPOTM/Randle.html

No. Everything moves way too fast, and while one guy is blowing, the other team is scooping.

Cute anecdote, though

[NewRefInGA]

I'm new at this, so be gentle.

I have no idea who caused the ball to go out of bounds in either case. What about Alternate Possession?

[LaxRef]

I'm new at this, so be gentle.

I have no idea who caused the ball to go out of bounds in either case. What about Alternate Possession?

You could try to sell that call, but I think even though the rules talk about who touched it last, in the case of a ball resting on the ground it makes more sense to call it based on who caused it to go out. This is one of those cases where making the call that "feels right" probably has the least blow back from the coaches and players.

[3rdPersonPlural]

AP never hurts if you don't know, and in the heat of the moment I'd probably call AP on both of these (at least I would have before LR made me sear my brain on this issue.

[wolfenburg]

Since the rules say: who touches last and not who gave the momentum i say give the ball to the goali. (if the ball is in the net of a Stick and you check it so it goes oob it is your ball as well eaveb you force it to go oob).


In Yesterdays practise we had an interesting situation:

A1 catces a far pass near the endline, sees he canot make it, so he drops his stick, that stays in the field, then he runs out of bounds, stops, turns and pick up his stick with the ball in. Is this legal?

[LaxRef]

A1 catces a far pass near the endline, sees he canot make it, so he drops his stick, that stays in the field, then he runs out of bounds, stops, turns and pick up his stick with the ball in. Is this legal?

Under NFHS and NCAA rules, this is a technical foul for participating in the play from out of bounds. I don't know about ILF rules.

[wolfenburg]

Hmm I don't know any rules that say you may not touch anything outside the field under ILF rules ... (only that the ball is considert as oob. (in the upper case i forgot to menchoned, that A1 returns into the field befor he picks up his stick....)


Would it be the same if the player would just drop the ball instead his stick (and what if he is leagely checked instead of just runing ?) ( B1 Checes A1, A1 drops his stick, and steps on the line, B1 fails to pick up the ball, A1 gose back on the field picks up the stick and the ball. (without interfeering with any player of corse)

[3rdPersonPlural]

Under NFHS and NCAA rules, this is a technical foul for participating in the play from out of bounds. I don't know about ILF rules.

LR, would it still be participating from OOB if the player got both feet inbounds before recovering his stick?

[laxzeeb]

Under NFHS rules 4-6-3a...the ball shall be awarded to any player of the team opposing that of the player who last touched it...

I think it is ironic that this portion of the rule speaks of the player who last touched the ball and the fact the players don't ever touch it unless it hits them. 4-6-2 speaks of possession of the ball and avoids that issue. If there was enough force to cause the ball to go out and we are going to include the crosse in "touching" my ruling is B1 last touched the ball and caused it to go out. If someone claims he never made contact with the ball I'm going to say that's not what I saw.

Case 2 I've just never seen anything close to that. I'm with eme, with that kind of force it would appear he hit it and it goes to the attacking team. In actuality, if you are going to include the crosse in "touching" the ball then the net is just as much a static object that the GK used in his effort to control the ball and there you go.

[LaxRef]

Hmm I don't know any rules that say you may not touch anything outside the field under ILF rules ... (

It would be in the Illegal Procedure section.

[old geezer]

This question arose in an officials' clinic this week.

Inbounds Player A1 attempts to scoop the ball into his crosse but doesn't. In the process, his momentum carries him out of bounds and the ball stays inbounds. Inbounds Player B3 then attempts to scoop the ball but doesn't and instead causes it to go out of bounds striking player A1 who has not yet reentered the field of play. Whose ball is it and what rule backs this call.

After reading the section of rule 4 that covers out of bounds play, no one is sure what the call is. Even though A1 is completely out of bounds, does he cause it to go out of bounds because he is one of the 10 field players in the game although he is at that moment completely off the field briefly or does the inbounds B3 cause it to go out of bounds by hitting somehting that is completely out of bounds, in this case A1?

Or is A1 guilty of attempting to play the ball from out of bounds?

[eme]

Unless I am missing something in your scenario, this is an easy call.


NFHS page 31 at the bottom of the page."when a loose ball touches anything on the boundary line or outside the boundary line..." it is OOB. I am sure NCAA language is the same.

B3 sends the ball OOB and it is OOB at the moment it hits A1 who is OOB.
Award ball to Team A.

[LaxRef]

Unless I am missing something in your scenario, this is an easy call.


NFHS page 31 at the bottom of the page."when a loose ball touches anything on the boundary line or outside the boundary line..." it is OOB. I am sure NCAA language is the same.

B3 sends the ball OOB and it is OOB at the moment it hits A1 who is OOB.
Award ball to Team A.

Not in NCAA rules:

A.R. 35. Player A1 falls so that half of his body is inbounds and half is out of bounds. The ball deflects off B1, who is inbounds, and then the ball touches a part of A1 or his crosse which is (1) inbounds; or (2) out of bounds. RULING: In both cases, the ball is considered to have gone out of bounds off of A1. Award the ball to Team B.

[old geezer]

First, I only deal with NCAA, not Fed. rules so I couldn't begin to tell you what the Fed. rules are and I should have made the disclaimer that it was NCAA rules that govern this play. My apology for not making that clear.

My first response was the same as yours, player B3 caused the ball to go out of bounds.

But the response back to me was "What makes this different from a player who has stepped out of bounds during the play who then tries to play the inbounds ball." The call in that case would be illegal procedure for trying to play the ball from out of bounds. There was some sentiment in the room that would agree with that.

Then another thought was that since player A1 was one of the field players and not a sub, then he caused the ball to go out of bounds as he was considered one of the field players and not a sub, much like a player who has one foot in bounds and one foot out of bounds who touches the ball causes it to go out of bounds.

And the other field of thought was that B3 caused the ball to go out of bounds.

The rule is too vague to answer this, and with two lawyers in the room arguing different interpretations, too many heads where shaking.

[old geezer]

AR 35 doesn't answer the question. The question is what status does the completely out of bounds player have? Is he out of bounds, thus something that is completely out of bounds in which case the opponent would have caused the ball to go out of bounds? Or is he considered to be an inbounds player albeit with no contact with the playing field in any manner as the player laying partially on the field and partially off the field does, thus having the property of an inbounds player and therefore he would cause the ball to go out of bounds?

And what constitutes trying to play the ball from out of bounds? Does it have to be an overt act or something as simple as just being hit by the ball while completely off the field/

[Woodenstick]

The causation concept under NCAA creates metaphysical and philosophical issues that can be debated for hours and are too deep for me, fortunately I only do high school :+)

I think NFHS is easier than NCAA, because NFHS talks about who touched it last, not who caused it to go o-o-b. If A is off the field, and the ball hits A or his stick, then 1) the ball is oob, and 2) A touched it last, give ball to B. You could reach the same result with IP, A is participating in play while out of bounds. If A was hit with the ball and never tried to play it, the IP call seems a bit unfair, but either way you get pretty much the same result. If A tried to play it, then IP seems like the right call. Same result as oob call except that IP is not a regular substitution (by horn)? Of course, as soon as you blow the whistle for IP, the horn goes off and players start to run on and off....

[LaxRef]

AR 35 doesn't answer the question. The question is what status does the completely out of bounds player have? Is he out of bounds, thus something that is completely out of bounds in which case the opponent would have caused the ball to go out of bounds? Or is he considered to be an inbounds player albeit with no contact with the playing field in any manner as the player laying partially on the field and partially off the field does, thus having the property of an inbounds player and therefore he would cause the ball to go out of bounds?

And what constitutes trying to play the ball from out of bounds? Does it have to be an overt act or something as simple as just being hit by the ball while completely off the field/

I'm losing the thread of these arguments because not everyone is quoting the relevant posts. But this may help: I'm not sure whether the player is trying to participate is an issue. NCAA Rule 6-6 says:

g. Participation in the play of the game by a player out of bounds.

is IP. A player who gets hit by the ball is participating in my book even if it's unintentional. And even if the player is completely OOB when he gets hit by the ball, the ball is still in play until he gets hit and it could still be played by an athletic player jumping from inbounds, leaping OOB and flipping the ball back into the field of play to save it. Once that OOB player is hit by the ball, he has participated in the play.

[eme]

Again, what am I missing, NCAA or Fed or whatever? Player A is completely out of bounds in the original scenario. He is not half in and half out or lying across the line. He is completely out of bounds . So is a chair or a goal post or a fence or a spectator or any other object. When a loose ball touches the boundary line or anything beyond that boundary line, it is OOB at that instant. Now, who caused the ball to hit that out-of-bounds object? Player B did. Ball awarded toTeam A.

[shrekjr]

Again, what am I missing, NCAA or Fed or whatever? Player A is completely out of bounds in the original scenario. He is not half in and half out or lying across the line. He is completely out of bounds . So is a chair or a goal post or a fence or a spectator or any other object. When a loose ball touches the boundary line or anything beyond that boundary line, it is OOB at that instant. Now, who caused the ball to hit that out-of-bounds object? Player B did. Ball awarded toTeam A.
Agreed. Using the similar logic to a player being OOB but closest to the spot on a shot, he doesn't exist when making the determination of possession. So in the case being discussed, the player completely OOB was not the cause of the ball going OOB. I know, that's a stretch, but it works in my twisted mind.

[3rdPersonPlural]

How about this scenario:

Ball pops off A1's stick and is floating OOB in front of B's bench area. A2 makes a gallant dive, catches the ball while he's still in flight, and attempts to flip the ball back into play. However, his flip is tangled with an assistant coach who is in the coaches area, but with his back turned talking to players, and the ball falls OOB.

Who's ball is it and why? The NFHS rulebook is not forthcoming about this.

[old geezer]

I agree with LR that the player, by being one of the legal 10 field players for Team A, has played the ball from out of bounds. The USC rule in regard to a player not immediately returning to the field would seem to define this out of bounds player as still being in the game and not a non-participating out of bounds player, coach, goal, fence post or other object to which the other interpretation would apply. I would award the ball to team B.

The other part of the original discussion had to do with horn or no horn if this happened on a sideline OOB. If it is IP, then there is no horn. If it is OOB, then there is a horn.

[LaxRef]

How about this scenario:

Ball pops off A1's stick and is floating OOB in front of B's bench area. A2 makes a gallant dive, catches the ball while he's still in flight, and attempts to flip the ball back into play. However, his flip is tangled with an assistant coach who is in the coaches area, but with his back turned talking to players, and the ball falls OOB.

Who's ball is it and why? The NFHS rulebook is not forthcoming about this.

I would rule that the ball is OOB off of A2. The coaches are out of bounds in an area where they are allowed to be. I asked a question a while back about this sort of situation: I think as long as the coach isn't actively trying to affect the play, it's just an out of bounds ball, even if he sees the ball coming and makes no effort to move out of the way.

[LaxRef]

Again, what am I missing, NCAA or Fed or whatever? Player A is completely out of bounds in the original scenario. He is not half in and half out or lying across the line. He is completely out of bounds . So is a chair or a goal post or a fence or a spectator or any other object. When a loose ball touches the boundary line or anything beyond that boundary line, it is OOB at that instant. Now, who caused the ball to hit that out-of-bounds object? Player B did. Ball awarded toTeam A.

But the question is not who caused it to go out of bounds, it is who touched it last by the letter of the rule. That Team A player standing OOB was the last to touch it, simultaneously with it becoming OOB. If the rules talked about whoever caused it to become OOB, then it would be a different story, but as it stands now it's a gray area.

However, I like the "participation from out of bounds" angle, since it's not gray.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I would rule that the ball is OOB off of A2. The coaches are out of bounds in an area where they are allowed to be. I asked a question a while back about this sort of situation: I think as long as the coach isn't actively trying to affect the play, it's just an out of bounds ball, even if he sees the ball coming and makes no effort to move out of the way.

This brings up the other question. WHO can be in the coaches box? NFHS says 'the coach', but how about assistants? How about, say, an injured co=captain who is assisting the head coach? How about 3 assistants? How about 8, 1 of whom is is also a team parent/admin?

Where does one draw the line, and what rule can one point to?

[LaxRef]

This brings up the other question. WHO can be in the coaches box? NFHS says 'the coach', but how about assistants? How about, say, an injured co=captain who is assisting the head coach? How about 3 assistants? How about 8, 1 of whom is is also a team parent/admin?

Where does one draw the line, and what rule can one point to?

NFHS actually says:

ART. 8 . . . The coaches’ areas shall be located on either side of the table area. Each coaches’ area shall extend from the table area 20 yards parallel to the sideline. It shall be bounded by the sideline, the table area, a dotted line 6 yards from and parallel to the sideline, and a dotted line extending from the sideline, parallel to and 20 yards from the table-area line.

The word "coaches'" clearly means you can have more than one; it's hard to put a limit on it, although if they decide they have 15 coaches I'm going to be very strict about the stepping onto the field conduct foul thing, plus they'd better keep their mouths shut.

In my state, they limit them to a head coach and one assistant for the playoffs, but there's no regular-season limit.

[wolfenburg]

ILF Rules allow three coaches in the coaches box. (no mater what they are, trainer, playing coach ...)

But to the szenario above.

A1 makes a bad pass to A2, A2 fails to catch, the ball touches B1 in the substitution box,
a) While waiting for B2
b) after B2 steped in the box (B1 is in the movement of moving on the field but clearly in the box so no delay to come back on the field)
c) B1 is leaving the field and B2 is already on the field (or not)

[Shorelax]

A1 catces a far pass near the endline, sees he canot make it, so he drops his stick, that stays in the field, then he runs out of bounds, stops, turns and pick up his stick with the ball in. Is this legal?

I do not have my rulebook in front of me. Is it not an IP for a player to intentionally lose their stick in the field of play??

[Woodenstick]

How about this scenario:

Ball pops off A1's stick and is floating OOB in front of B's bench area. A2 makes a gallant dive, catches the ball while he's still in flight, and attempts to flip the ball back into play. However, his flip is tangled with an assistant coach who is in the coaches area, but with his back turned talking to players, and the ball falls OOB.

Who's ball is it and why? The NFHS rulebook is not forthcoming about this.

If A1 throws a ball and the ball hits somone on the sideline and the ball was clearly unplayable by any player, we give the ball to team B.

But if anyone on the sideline interferes with and changes the possible result of a play, that is either illegal procedure or USC, depending on the circumstances. Players and coaches have a duty to pay attention and not interfere with play. Just because the coach was not paying attention or in the coaches box, he does not have a right to interfere with play in any way.

So coach of team B gets tangled in play, stops a possible save of an oob ball by team A player, IP, award ball to team A.

[LaxRef]

If A1 throws a ball and the ball hits somone on the sideline and the ball was clearly unplayable by any player, we give the ball to team B.

But if anyone on the sideline interferes with and changes the possible result of a play, that is either illegal procedure or USC, depending on the circumstances. Players and coaches have a duty to pay attention and not interfere with play. Just because the coach was not paying attention or in the coaches box, he does not have a right to interfere with play in any way.

So coach of team B gets tangled in play, stops a possible save of an oob ball by team A player, IP, award ball to team A.

I don't agree with this. Those coaches have a right to be in the coaches' box. If they were really worried about this, they'd have made the coaches' box 3 yards back from the sideline.

I posed a question a while back: A1 was clearing the ball down the sideline, in bounds but with his stick hanging over the OOB area. The stick happens to hit a coach who is standing in the coaches' box. The consensus seemed to be that the coach had a right to stand there and the players needed to avoid touching him, just like they'd need to avoid touching the ground OOB with their crosse.

Nowhere in the rules do I see anything that could be construed as requiring the coaches to pay attention and get out of the way if a player happens to jump OOB. Of course, if the coach intentionally affects the play, USC.

[LaxRef]

I do not have my rulebook in front of me. Is it not an IP for a player to intentionally lose their stick in the field of play??

It's IP to throw it, but not necessarily to drop it. But it is IP to participate in the play without equipment, and I think picking up a stick with the ball in it qualifies as participating. The NCAA rules make this explicit.