Equipment Quiz

[CoachRob]

This uses NFHS rules:

Player A1 LEGALLY knocks the block off B2 fighting for a loose ball, who yells "Ouch! That REALLY hurt!".:crying: A1 wins the ball, goes to goal, shoots and scores a goal. Before the next face-off, the ref is curious how a 4 foot tall player (A1) put such a vicious lick on a 6 foot bruiser (B2). When he looks, he notices A1 has on football shoulder pads, and is really only 3' 10" tall (the pads made him LOOK taller, a dating tip for you short guys out there).

1. Is this legal equipment?
2. If not legal, what penalty is assessed for this illegal equipment?
3. Does the goal count?
4. How is play restarted (who gets the ball and where) if the goal does not count?

Good luck (this is a real game situation, with a couple of extras to make it more interesting). :wow:

[unta8]

I think:

The football pads are legal, It depends how close he hit him, the glao counts. Probably wrong...oh well.l

[CoachRob]

I think:

The football pads are legal, It depends how close he hit him, the glao counts. Probably wrong...oh well.l

If you THINK you are probably wrong, why not answer the opposite of what you think is correct? It got me through medical school!

But seriously, when you go to the store for lax stuff, do you see football equipment routinely mixed in with lacrosse equipment? Hmmm...

Apply yourself a little unta8 and I'm sure you can get all four questions.

And if you don't already own one, consider buying a rule book, read two pages a night, and you'll find these quizes, and your games, that much easier. PLUS you can catch the ref when he makes an error and be a hero for your team when you save a goal by pointing out the mistake, respectfully, to the ref. Then, as a hero, you'll get that pretty cheerleader you have your eye on, you'll get a great letter of recommendation from your coach who uses you as a rule reference go-to-guy, probably end up getting a scholarship, actually getting a free college ride JUST TO PLAY lacrosse, and you'll look back at that $7 rule book as the BEST investment you ever made!

[BigTony]

Don't the have the official rule book on laxrules.com? That is what I use to figure out these quizes and such. On to the question.

The rule-book spefically notes, under section 24, that players may wear football shoulderpads or a football helmet, as long as it has a lacrosse facemask. The note also says that they cannot be used to "[initate] contact." Since player A1 used his pads specifically to knock B2's block off it would be illegeal. The goal would count, but A1 serves a 1 minute non-releaseable personal foul. He is also forced to remove his football pads and get different ones before he can play again. The ball is also awarded to team B at the center line.

[CoachRob]

Don't they have the official rule book on laxrules.com? That is what I use to figure out these quizes and such.

No, these are NOT the official rules. These are CONDENSED rules that are a cheap imitation for the real thing. However, they do have the official NCAA rulebook available for a free download.

The rule-book spefically notes, under section 24, that players may wear football shoulder pads or a football helmet, as long as it has a lacrosse facemask. The note also says that they cannot be used to "[initiate] contact." Since player A1 used his pads specifically to knock B2's block off it would be illegeal. The goal would count, but A1 serves a 1 minute non-releaseable personal foul. He is also be forced to remove his football pads and get different ones before he can play again. The ball is also awarded to team B at the center line.

Why would you force a player to remove football shoulder pads if laxrules.com says they are legal?

By the way, I never stated A1 initiated contact with his shoulder pads. I made it clear that the contact was LEGAL as that is not the point I am addressing in this quiz. So all laxheads, please assume the contact was LEGAL in your responses.

[LaxRef]

By the way, I never stated A1 initiated contact with his shoulder pads. I made it clear that the contact was LEGAL as that is not the point I am addressing in this quiz. So all laxheads, please assume the contact was LEGAL in your responses.

A couple of things:

This is a case where it really matters whether you're talking NCAA or NFHS rules. You didn't specify, and I don't know what the condensed rules on laxrules.com are a condensed version of (but it sounds like NCAA). In particular, NCAA 1-24 says:

Note: The goalkeeper may wear football pants with or without pads, but he may not wear ice hockey goalkeeper’s gloves. Players may wear protective football shoulder pads or a football helmet that has had its original face mask replaced with a NOCSAE-certified men’s lacrosse face mask, provided that neither is used for initiating contact.

So football helmets are legal in NCAA ball.

Secondly, I can see people being a little confused about the contact being "legal," since normally initiating contact with the shoulder pads is legal, but not if they're football shoulder pads. Thus, it's not entirely clear whether the contact was "legal under normal circumstances" or "legal under these circumstances."

Actually, I just checked the NFHS rules and can't find an on-point rule that says what to do if a player scores a goal and then is discovered to have illegal equipment other than a crosse. I know what the ruling is in NCAA ball.

[CoachRob]

Since player A1 used his pads specifically to knock B2's block off it would be illegeal. The goal would count, but A1 serves a 1 minute non-releaseable personal foul.

BigTony,
Your post has opened a gold mine of educational opportunities, so thank you for posting it!

If this were true, and A1 HAD initiated contact with his pads in an ILLEGAL manner (hitting B2 from behind, above the shoulders, below the waist, not having both hands on his crosse during the contact, or making contact more than 5 yards from the loose ball), then the ref would have had to throw a flag AT THE TIME OF THE illegal contact. In this case, since it was a LOOSE ball, it would also be an immediate whistle and A1 would have been sent off IMMEDIATELY to serve a 1-minute RELEASABLE personal foul penalty (for an illegal body check).

The only body check REQUIRING a NON-RELEASABLE penalty is spearing (initiating contact with your helmet). All other illegal body checks are one minute releasables.

This would also NOT be a play-on situation as this only applies after a loose ball TECHNICAL foul (such as offside, pushing, interference, illegal procedure, etc.) where blowing the whistle immediately may unfairly disadvantage the fouled team (maybe they are going to scoop the ball, despite the technical foul, and get a fast break going).

A play-on is NOT used after a loose ball PERSONAL foul (illegal cross-check, illegal body check, illegal crose, slashing, tripping, unnecessary roughness, or unsportsmanlike conduct [USC]). After a PERSONAL foul (whether the ball is loose or in somebody's possession), the ref must throw his flag to indicate a personal foul has occurred; if not, then no foul HAS occurred in his opinion (the flag is one way how he communicates to everyone what he is thinking/seeing/believing).

So, unless the ref called it at the time of the foul, he cannot go back AFTER the goal and say, "A1, that was naughty now that I think about it and got yelled at by coach B3. Have a seat in the box". Not good form for a ref to do that kind of "after the fact" stuff, don't you think?

:bye:

[CoachRob]

A couple of things:

This is a case where it really matters whether you're talking NCAA or NFHS rules. You didn't specify, and I don't know what the condensed rules on laxrules.com are a condensed version of (but it sounds like NCAA).

Darn it, I broke my own rule of not specifying. This is an NFHS issue. I just added it to the original post.

And that also explains BigTony's answer. He downloaded the official NCAA rulebook from laxrules.com, where it is a free .pdf document. They have condensed rules that you can click on that are NOT downloaded that I was referring to. Sorry about that BigTony. If you play by NCAA rules, those ARE official rules on the site; the NFHS rulebook is not available in electronic format much to my chagrin.

[BigTony]

Now where can I purchase a HS Rulebook?

[TheKOB]

Isn't there a difference between football sholder pads and just the liner?

[CoachRob]

You can order an NFHS rule book from:

http://www.nfhs.com/index.asp?cmd=showcategory&param_0=68

[Dan]

Here's a more readable, condensed version of what I'm sure is correct:

1. Heck no (Only lacrosse pads in NFHS, I'm quite sure)
2. 1 minute NR
3. Yes, the goal counted
4. Team B with ball at X. The face-off X.

At least, that's what I'd be doing.

[LaxRef]

This uses NFHS rules:

Player A1 LEGALLY knocks the block off B2 fighting for a loose ball, who yells "Ouch! That REALLY hurt!".:crying: A1 wins the ball, goes to goal, shoots and scores a goal. Before the next face-off, the ref is curious how a 4 foot tall player (A1) put such a vicious lick on a 6 foot bruiser (B2). When he looks, he notices A1 has on football shoulder pads, and is really only 3' 10" tall (the pads made him LOOK taller, a dating tip for you short guys out there).

1. Is this legal equipment?
2. If not legal, what penalty is assessed for this illegal equipment?
3. Does the goal count?
4. How is play restarted (who gets the ball and where) if the goal does not count?

Okay, a quite a few people are on the right track here, so I'll chime in as well.

1. Illegal for NFHS (legal for NCAA provided "not used to initiate contact').

2. Assess 1:00 NR equipment foul on A1

3. The rules only discuss wiping out goals for an illegal crosse, not for illegal equipment. Thus, the goal stands.

4. Dead ball foul on A1, so award possession to team B one step over center X. No faceoff due to the deadball foul.

Now, here's my follow-up question: under NCAA rules, if this scenario occurred (football shoulder pads used to initiate contact), what would you call?

[CoachRob]

Here's a more readable, condensed version of what I'm sure is correct:

1. Heck no (Only lacrosse pads in NFHS, I'm quite sure)
2. 1 minute NR.
3. Yes, the goal counted.
4. Team B starts with ball at X. The face-off X.

At least, that's what I'd be doing.

Exactly correct. The goal does count. The only case in which a goal would NOT count according to the NFHS case scenarios is for an ILLEGAL CROSSE discovered after a goal, but before the restart of play. That is (likely) what LaxRef was referring to when he failed to find a case on point regarding illegal pads.

(In fact, if A1 kicked the ball in and was discovered to have had an illegal crosse in his hands at the time, the goal would still be voided.)

In NFHS, football helmets and shoulder pads are illegal equipment.

Interestingly, if A1 had passed the ball to A2, A2 scored, and A1 was then found to have an illegal crosse BEFORE play restarted, the goal WOULD count as it has to be the SCORER that is using the illegal crosse to disallow the goal. So A1 would serve a 1-minute NR penalty, but the goal by A2 would still count. (That's a mouthful!)

So, the goal is GOOD, and A1 gets sent to the box for a 1-minute NR penalty (illegal equipment, a personal foul). Team B starts with the ball at the center X (actually about a foot over it, but who's counting?). This of course assumes no other foul(s) occur during the time after the goal was scored and team B restarts play, which would muck up things a bit. (We won't get into those scenarios just now.)

I'm sure LaxRef will have something to add, but that's the gist of this quiz on NFHS equipment.