Simultaneous foul update

[LaxRef]

Some of us have had fierce debates about the simultaneous foul rules, mostly because these rules are unclear. In fact, the very term "simultaneous fouls" is extremely misleading.

In an earlier discussion, CoachRob stated that he thought NCAA rule 7, which states

SECTION 6. Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during a live ball or a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.

meant "any fouls during a live ball are simultaneous; fouls during a dead ball are simultaneous if the order can't be determined." I countered that the clause "when sequence cannot be determined" appllied to both "live ball" and "dead ball." I still believe that, the way it's phrased, that's the way it should be interpreted.

However, I corresponded with a rules interpreter who says that CoachRob's interpretation is what they were trying to say. A better way to phrase this would be:

Section 6. (My rewrite) Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during (a) A dead ball situation, but only if the sequence cannot be determined (b) A live ball, from the time the whistle blows to start play until the whistle blows to stop play.

Why is all of this important? Well, for simultaneous fouls, the common penalty time is non-releasable (NCAA 7-2-d):

For the purpose of determining when a player or players may be released from a penalty, for all time-serving penalties called on players of opposing teams from the time the flag is dropped or the whistle sounds stopping play (whichever occurs first), until the sounding of the whistle resuming play, the lesser amount of penalty time shall be treated as non-releasable.

Now, given this rule, I don't really see what the point of calling the fouls "simultaneous" is, since the only reason I can see that mattering is regarding whether any penalty time will be non-releasable. However, there is another clause CoachRob and I have sparred about:

NCAA Rule 7-6
b. Penalty time:
1. If there is no play-on or flag down in effect and if all fouls are technical, the fouls cancel.
2. If the team in possession (or entitled to possession) commits:
(a) Only technical fouls, no penalty time will be served by that team.
(b) Any personal foul, all players involved will serve penalty time.

CoachRob took this to mean that if B1 slashes A1, then A2 wards at the same time A1 slashes B1, then A2 would serve 30 seconds for the ward. In the newest issue of Lacrosse Magazine, in the Men's Stripes column, we learn that this is how it is enforced in international ball, but not how they do it in the U.S. (I learned from another official that they used to do it this way in NCAA ball, but I don't know why, when, or how they changed it.

In any case, the key rule seems to be 7-2-d, quoted above, since that tells you how enforcement works, regardless of whether you remember to call the fouls "simultaneous" or not.

[LaxRef]

CoachRob, I can't believe you haven't responded to this one. Not even an "I told you so"?

[LaxRef]

Now, given this rule, I don't really see what the point of calling the fouls "simultaneous" is, since the only reason I can see that mattering is regarding whether any penalty time will be non-releasable.

Oh, now I remember why this is important! If you assess the fouls in sequence, possession goes to whichever team was fouled last. However, if you call them simultaneous, the ball is awarded to the team with the lesser overally penalty time (if penalty time is equal, the team that was fouled first gets the ball). I think this is the aspect of the rule that is probably most frequently mis-applied.

[CoachRob]

CoachRob, I can't believe you haven't responded to this one. Not even an "I told you so"?

First, I have to tell you I had to edit your post. In your next-to-last paragraph, you had written "...then A2 wards at the same time A1 slashes B1", but I know you meant to write "...then A2 wards at the same time B1 slashes A1" so I changed it so as to not confuse readers. Sorry about that.

I'm NOT going to say I told you so, because you have been right in just about every other issue we've sparred over, and you never gloat.

But this is a VERY important point, and I'm glad you (finally) clarified it. It really had to be the way I read and thought about it to explain all of the case scenarios in the NFHS rule book. LaxRef, if you now read the AR's and cases with this new definition in mind, I think you'll agree they are MUCH clearer.

Players, the point LaxRef and I have debated for some time, as have MANY lax coaches/refs/players, is rule 7-6, SIMULTANEOUS FOULS. It is worded very poorly and flies in the face of what most people take the word simultaneous to mean in ordinary everyday usage.

For lax purposes, if a game is going on, and the ref drops his flag, that signals the FIRST penalty has occurred. If any other penalty is committed BEFORE the whistle is blown to stop play, EVEN THOUGH THE 2nd (and 3rd, 4th, etc.) penalties occurred at DIFFERENT TIMES than the first (on a real time running clock), they are considered simultaneous. It is as if once the first penalty occurs, a magical watch is STOPPED and every other penalty until the whistle blows (to stop play) occurs at the EXACT same time on the MAGICAL WATCH.

Once the whistle blows, the magical watch starts again, so that any penalties occurring during a dead ball are in REAL TIME. Therefore if a penalty is committed 3 seconds after the whistle blows (we're now in dead ball time), and another is committed 7 seconds after the whistle blows, they are 4 seconds apart and the sequence CAN be determined. The magical watch NEVER stops during a dead ball. These are therefore NOT simultaneous fouls, as the rule states. Remember, 7-6 reads
...or a dead ball when sequence CANNOT be determined.

So, does this REALLY matter? As LaxRef states, the importance is that in simultaneous fouls, the SHORTEST DURATION PENALTY is NON-RELEASABLE, so nobody is getting out of the box until the first penalty of shortest duration is served completely.

That is why the scorekeeper needs to be on his/her toes when multiple players are in the box. Otherwise, it can be total chaos.

For most of you, you'll have to go with what the ref says, because it's a confusing topic for everyone and I personally wish they would eliminate the concept. However, understanding it does make the enforcement more tolerable and of course, the more rules you know, the better off you are.

[CoachRob]

If you assess the fouls in sequence, possession goes to whichever team was fouled last. However, if you call them simultaneous, the ball is awarded to the team with the lesser overall penalty time (if penalty time is equal, the team that was fouled first gets the ball). I think this is the aspect of the rule that is probably most frequently mis-applied.

No, not really. Your statement (if penalty time is equal, the team that was fouled first gets the ball) is not correct. If simultaneous penalty times are equal betweem the teams, the team that had possession or was ENTITLED to possession retains the ball to restart play. Otherwise, you award the ball by alternate possession.

So, let's make a case up. A1 slashes B1 (who has the ball). Flag down. B1 then turns and slashes A2 out of spite. Whistle blows to stop play. These are SIMULTANOUS fouls becaus the magical watch stopped at the first slash. While the ball is dead, A3 and B3 both curse (mildly) at each other at the exact same time. These TOO are simultanous fouls. So, A1, B1, A3, and B3 are ALL serving simultaneous fouls, with each being assessed 1 minute penalties. So, each team is assessed two minutes in penalty time.

By rule, since B1 had the ball when the whistle blew to stop play, his team is entitled to it at the restart because BOTH teams have accrued two minutes of penalty time.

So, B4 is given the ball by the ref to restart play. However, teammate B5 is VERY slow to get out to the field, and is assessed a technical foul. Even though it is a DEAD ball foul, sequence COULD be determined, and it is therefore not part of the simultaneous foul rule. As a result, since team B was the team last assessed a penalty, team A gets the ball to restart play.

Again, while confusing, if sequence CAN be determined, without regard to total penalty time, the last team fouled gets the ball.

[LaxRef]

First, I have to tell you I had to edit your post. In your next-to-last paragraph, you had written "...then A2 wards at the same time A1 slashes B1", but I know you meant to write "...then A2 wards at the same time B1 slashes A1" so I changed it so as to not confuse readers. Sorry about that.

And I changed it back. The whole point of this scenario is to have personal fouls on opposing teams. So B1 slashes A1, flag down. Then A2 commits a techincal (warding) at the same time A1 retaliates and slashes B1.

(It's probably a good idea to PM people before editing their posts.)

[LaxRef]

No, not really. Your statement (if penalty time is equal, the team that was fouled first gets the ball) is not correct. If simultaneous penalty times are equal betweem the teams, the team that had possession or was ENTITLED to possession retains the ball to restart play. Otherwise, you award the ball by alternate possession.

So, let's make a case up. A1 slashes B1 (who has the ball). Flag down. B1 then turns and slashes A2 out of spite. Whistle blows to stop play. These are SIMULTANOUS fouls becaus the magical watch stopped at the first slash. While the ball is dead, A3 and B3 both curse (mildly) at each other at the exact same time. These TOO are simultanous fouls. So, A1, B1, A3, and B3 are ALL serving simultaneous fouls, with each being assessed 1 minute penalties. So, each team is assessed two minutes in penalty time.

By rule, since B1 had the ball when the whistle blew to stop play, his team is entitled to it at the restart because BOTH teams have accrued two minutes of penalty time.

So, B4 is given the ball by the ref to restart play. However, teammate B5 is VERY slow to get out to the field, and is assessed a technical foul. Even though it is a DEAD ball foul, sequence COULD be determined, and it is therefore not part of the simultaneous foul rule. As a result, since team B was the team last assessed a penalty, team A gets the ball to restart play.

Again, while confusing, if sequence CAN be determined, without regard to total penalty time, the last team fouled gets the ball.

You're right, I wasn't very clear. When I said the first team fouled got the ball when penalty times were equal, I meant the team that got fouled when the flag went down, since that team was entitled to possession. However, that could clearly change depending on what transpires during the dead ball.

[CoachRob]

And I changed it back. The whole point of this scenario is to have personal fouls on opposing teams. So B1 slashes A1, flag down. Then A2 commits a techincal (warding) at the same time A1 retaliates and slashes B1.

(It's probably a good idea to PM people before editing their posts.)

OOPS! I thought you were staying with B1 slashing A1, but you were ACTUALLY adding a retaliation. So sorry. I often get my A's and B's mixed up with long posts, which is what I thought happened to you and I didn't want anybody confused on what is already a very confusing topic. Won't happen again. :thumbsdow

Have I said often enough how much I HATE simultaneous fouls???