Why I hate the NFHS (revisited)

[LaxRef]

So, I was poking around on the NFHS website--still no rules .pdf files, of course--trying to get an exact date for when the NFHS 2005 rules would be released, and I discovered the following lovely tidbit:

The NFHS Lacrosse Rules Manual is $6.75. There is a minimum order of $10.00, not including shipping. So, if you want to order through them, it will cost you $10 + shipping for a $6.75 book that you should be able to get for free on the internet. :angry:

Fortunately, as an official, I now have the option of getting either NCAA or NFHS for free. I took NFHS, of course, since I can get the NCAA rules in .pdf.

[Snake~eyes]

So, I was poking around on the NFHS website--still no rules .pdf files, of course--trying to get an exact date for when the NFHS 2005 rules would be released, and I discovered the following lovely tidbit:

The NFHS Lacrosse Rules Manual is $6.75. There is a minimum order of $10.00, not including shipping. So, if you want to order through them, it will cost you $10 + shipping for a $6.75 book that you should be able to get for free on the internet. :angry:

Fortunately, as an official, I now have the option of getting either NCAA or NFHS for free. I took NFHS, of course, since I can get the NCAA rules in .pdf.
Kinda sucks doesn't it! I have never ordered a rulebook from the website, I always get one from my association, in every sport I do, it is included in our asociation fees. I'm also a member of USLacrosse so I get a rulebook there too.

[BigTony]

Scan all the pages of the NFHS book into your computer. Let us see its magesty.

[CoachRob]

I agree and have said for some time that the NFHS is TOO STINKIN' CHEAP for its own good. Why in the world they don't make a .pdf is beyond me.

[Snake~eyes]

I agree and have said for some time that the NFHS is TOO STINKIN' CHEAP for its own good. Why in the world they don't make a .pdf is beyond me.
Because otherwise they would have NO way to make any money, think about it. NCAA makes money from every college that uses their rules I'm sure. NFHS makes no money from High Schools or Youth Leagues. The only revenue they have is by selling their rulebooks.

[LaxRef]

Because otherwise they would have NO way to make any money, think about it. NCAA makes money from every college that uses their rules I'm sure. NFHS makes no money from High Schools or Youth Leagues. The only revenue they have is by selling their rulebooks.

That's exactly it. Which makes you wonder: if no one is willing to pay for their services, are they realy worth it?

[Snake~eyes]

That's exactly it. Which makes you wonder: if no one is willing to pay for their services, are they realy worth it?
Well people are paying, so they must be worth it.

[LaxRef]

Well people are paying, so they must be worth it.

Well, that's not what I meant. Obviously, they're paying for the rules. But who pays that? Mostly the officials, plus CoachRob and three other coaches in the southeast. But the schools aren't paying the NFHS anything, are they? Not like in the NCAA.

In all fairness, there probably are some benefits to having the rules *within a sport* standardized from state to state, but one thing that bothers me is their apparent goal of standardizing across sports.

[Snake~eyes]

Well, that's not what I meant. Obviously, they're paying for the rules. But who pays that? Mostly the officials, plus CoachRob and three other coaches in the southeast. But the schools aren't paying the NFHS anything, are they? Not like in the NCAA.

In all fairness, there probably are some benefits to having the rules *within a sport* standardized from state to state, but one thing that bothers me is their apparent goal of standardizing across sports.
You can always write it off like everything else. I'd be buying a rulebook if I was reffing NCAA anyways. I need it on paper cause I have to prove to the coach at halftime the correc ruling. :agree: :crazy:

[LaxRef]

You can always write it off like everything else. I'd be buying a rulebook if I was reffing NCAA anyways. I need it on paper cause I have to prove to the coach at halftime the correc ruling. :agree: :crazy:

I print it out from the .pdf even when I get the small copy because I like the larger type you get if you scale it to 8.5x11. Then I highlight and make notes like crazy.

I was told you should never pull out a rulebook in front of the coaches--or even on the field--because it makes it look like you don't know the rules. I just tell them what the rules say, and if they don't want to take my word for it then that's too bad. If necessary, I'd offer to send them the rule cite after the game, or they can talk to our local officials rule interpreter (a new position this year, to be filled by *me*!).

[Snake~eyes]

I was told you should never pull out a rulebook in front of the coaches--or even on the field--because it makes it look like you don't know the rules. I just tell them what the rules say, and if they don't want to take my word for it then that's too bad. If necessary, I'd offer to send them the rule cite after the game, or they can talk to our local officials rule interpreter (a new position this year, to be filled by *me*!).
I guess you didn't catch the fact that I was joking. :nahya:

[shrekjr]

I print it out from the .pdf even when I get the small copy because I like the larger type you get if you scale it to 8.5x11. Then I highlight and make notes like crazy.

And it helps us "older" (not old!) officials who need 3-4 different presciptions of glasses and contacts.

I was told you should never pull out a rulebook in front of the coaches--or even on the field--because it makes it look like you don't know the rules. I just tell them what the rules say, and if they don't want to take my word for it then that's too bad. If necessary, I'd offer to send them the rule cite after the game, or they can talk to our local officials rule interpreter (a new position this year, to be filled by *me*!).

I have to completely agree with this. If I have a problem in a JV game, I'll email the coach the next day with the ruling from the book. If it is a Varsity coach, I'll usually have them contact the local assigner/secretary since we're not supposed to have contact with the coaches off the field. I guarantee my rulebook will be in the car, but it will never make it onto the field. Too much room for disaster.

[LaxRef]

And it helps us "older" (not old!) officials who need 3-4 different presciptions of glasses and contacts.

I wonder if I can write off my upcoming LASIK surgery as an officiating expense? :chuckle:

[shrekjr]

I wonder if I can write off my upcoming LASIK surgery as an officiating expense? :chuckle:

I'll back you!

[Snake~eyes]

I have to completely agree with this. If I have a problem in a JV game, I'll email the coach the next day with the ruling from the book. If it is a Varsity coach, I'll usually have them contact the local assigner/secretary since we're not supposed to have contact with the coaches off the field. I guarantee my rulebook will be in the car, but it will never make it onto the field. Too much room for disaster.
Why do you have to email them the ruling? You can't cite the Rule, Section and Article on demand?

[shrekjr]

Why do you have to email them the ruling? You can't cite the Rule, Section and Article on demand?
Uhh......maybe sometimes??? On a good day! :)

[CoachRob]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America...

Oops, wrong document! Don't know what came over me???

[Snake~eyes]

Just imagine the look you could give coaches if you could state everything.

Coach: "HE TRIPPED HIM!"
Ref: "Coach, he was going to scoop the ball"
Coach: "THAT'S NOT WHAT THE RULES SAY"
Ref: "You're right coach, it does't say that. Rule 5 Section 7 says, and I quote, 'If an opponent falls over a player's crosse when that player is attempting to scoop a loose ball, no foul has been committed.'"
Coach: "....oh :OMG: "
Ref: "That's on page 35, top right."
Coach: " :OMG: "

[LaxRef]

Just imagine the look you could give coaches if you could state everything.

Coach: "HE TRIPPED HIM!"
Ref: "Coach, he was going to scoop the ball"
Coach: "THAT'S NOT WHAT THE RULES SAY"
Ref: "You're right coach, it does't say that. Rule 5 Section 7 says, and I quote, 'If an opponent falls over a player's crosse when that player is attempting to scoop a loose ball, no foul has been committed.'"
Coach: "....oh :OMG: "
Ref: "That's on page 35, top right."
Coach: " :OMG: "

Nice work if you can get it. I like to content myself with knowing the rules; I can't keep track of the section numbers (although I know what all of the rules are; actually, if you just say "Rule 5," most coaches will probably have the same reaction).

[CoachRob]

Just imagine the look you could give coaches if you could state everything.

Coach: "HE TRIPPED HIM!"
Ref: "Coach, he was going to scoop the ball"
Coach: "THAT'S NOT WHAT THE RULES SAY"
Ref: "You're right coach, it does't say that. Rule 5 Section 7 says, and I quote, 'If an opponent falls over a player's crosse when that player is attempting to scoop a loose ball, no foul has been committed.'"
Coach: "....oh :OMG: "
Ref: "That's on page 35, top right."
Coach: " :OMG: "

Actually, as a coach I'd respond:

"No Sir, it's actually NOT at the top right of page 35 as you say. The top right is a continuation of Rule 5-6, Slashing. Rule 5-7, Tripping, is the third paragraph down, which places it at around 1/5-1/3 of the way down the page. So, if you are going to quote me the rules, please make a better effort to know the proper references. :guns:

[Snake~eyes]

Actually, as a coach I'd respond:

"No Sir, it's actually NOT at the top right of page 35 as you say. The top right is a continuation of Rule 5-6, Slashing. Rule 5-7, Tripping, is the third paragraph down, which places it at around 1/5-1/3 of the way down the page. So, if you are going to quote me the rules, please make a better effort to know the proper references. :guns:
Well coach, it actually is at the top right of page 35; exactly like I said it is. I just didn't tell you that its at the top right of page 35 in the 2003 rulebook! :read:

[CoachRob]

You got me there Snake. But I have NO respect for a ref who uses a rulebook that's one year out of date!!! Some nerve...

[Snake~eyes]

You got me there Snake. But I have NO respect for a ref who uses a rulebook that's one year out of date!!! Some nerve...
Well I have NO respect for a coach who doesn't know the tripping rule. :hot: :nahya:

[CoachRob]

Well I have NO respect for a coach who doesn't know the tripping rule. :hot: :nahya:

Hey, EVERYBODY knows the tripping rule. It's a 15-second technical foul, non-releasable, and if you do it twice, you are ejected from the game.

It's right after the "Illegal Blowing of the Nose" rule on page 34 (of the 1999 NFHS rulebook).

How could you not respect a coach who knows this??? :agree:

[LaxRef]

Hey, EVERYBODY knows the tripping rule. It's a 15-second technical foul, non-releasable, and if you do it twice, you are ejected from the game.

It's right after the "Illegal Blowing of the Nose" rule on page 34 (of the 1999 NFHS rulebook).

It was changed to a 17-second intermediate-level partially-releasable foul in 2001.

[CoachRob]

I lost my 2001 copy. Darn it. You got me again!

[ploaref]

It was changed to a 17-second intermediate-level partially-releasable foul in 2001.


What are you guys drinkin? You're gonna foul up all the impressionable minds checking into this forum!

I nominate CoachRob to compile a legislative history of the lacrosse rulebook...with years that each rule was added, changed or deleted. He obviously doesn't practice much medicine, as evidenced by how much time he spends on this Board... :bartmoon:

[Snake~eyes]

I nominate CoachRob to compile a legislative history of the lacrosse rulebook...with years that each rule was added, changed or deleted.
That'd be cool, I second this nomination. :thumbsup:

[CoachRob]

That'd be cool, I second this nomination. :thumbsup:

I third the nomination. Hey wait, that's ME you guys are nominating. On second thought, I rescind my vote!

But I actually do think either on this forum or the NFHS forum somebody DID do that. It may have been LaxRef. I honestly recall seeing somebody make a list going back to around 1999.

And PLOAREF, I don't practice medicine any longer. I gave it up three years ago to spend more time with my kids and now work out of my home. That's actually how I got involved in lacrosse. I finally had enough time to do other things. Earning money is just not as important as earning your kid's respect and love. No kidding. It may sound goofy, but it's the truth.

[Snake~eyes]

Actually, someone did make a list but it wasn't NFHS, it was NCAA. And it wasn't LaxRef it was...... the name has escaped me.

[LaxRef]

But I actually do think either on this forum or the NFHS forum somebody DID do that. It may have been LaxRef. I honestly recall seeing somebody make a list going back to around 1999.

I remember that thread, but it wasn't me posting it. I *will* try to compile the NCAA vs. NFHS differences when the rulebooks come out, though.

Speaking of nominations, I'd appreciate it if you'd vote for me for COC secretary if you're COC members. I'm the first one listed on the ballot.

[CoachRob]

It was by Rilax. It can be found at:

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va_custom/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000022

NCAA

2003:
1-6 Goal area renamed, dotted lines must be solid
1-21 Minimum face mask opening removed
1-22 Shoulder pads cannot be altered.
4-1, 4-32 Coin-toss options expanded
5-5, A.R. 5 Stick-check procedure/penalty expanded
5-13 Fighting suspension carries over to next season
6-6 Added failure to comply equipment color rules
7-11, A.R. 54 Added (B1 commits a tech then A1 commits a tech in the play on: team A gets the ball)
Signals Point to illegal piece of equipment

2002:
1-17 Lime green ball permitted
4-28 Twenty second time out changed to full time out

2001:
1-2 Center lines continue though logos etc
1-26 Visable clock is the game clock
4-10 Team with more than three players in the penalty area may have fewer than four men in its defensive half
4-32 Team losing coin get the first alternate possession
7-1 Players serving a penalty during man-down face-off prohibited form entering field until official signifies possession.
7-11 Play-on technique extended to include loose ball infractions at center line as well as defensive are lines
7-11 Play on continues after outlet pass from goalkeeper that is not initially caught by fouled player.
Appendix I Description of stick field test added

2000:
1-18 Exception for gut-wall eliminated
1-19 Added definition of sidewall of crosse
1-20 Sidewall of crosse limited to 2 inches
5-10 Additional nonreleasable time added to continually abusive player count in maximum of five allowable.
6-6 Hiding 10th man in special substitution area is illegal procedure
7-2 Maximum of three players permitted in special substitution are at one time (i.e. stacking)

1999:
1-3 recommendation to use in-ground goals on natural surfaces removed
1-18 Dimesion of goalkepper’s crosse further dfined
1-20 New limit placed on strings hanging from crosse; new sketch and directions for measurement of offset head and crosse
1-21 Starting in 2000 all players must where helmets of the same color, which must be a team, color
1-21 Clear mouthpiece may be used if there is a doctor’s note
1-23-e All personal equipment coved in coaches certification
2-11 CBO can only call dead ball time outs
3-9 Stats rulings added
4-20 Player can not dive into the crease
4-28 Live ball timeouts in offensive half of the field only all the time
5-10 Baiting and taunting is always a USC
7-1 Players must sit/kneel in front of scores table when serving penalty time

1998:
1-20 Added testing for offset head based (made permanent in 1999)
1-22 cleats can only be .5 inches long
3-5, 4-28 Dead ball timeouts only in OT
4-4 Ball is refaced after an IW
4-15 Player must touch the ground to be in goal area
5-14 Tobacco is not allowed
6-6 10-sec count is now an illegal procedure

1997:
1-14 further defined spectator lines
1-26 no horn = illegal procedure
3-8 forfeit rule changed to meet bylaw definition
4-28 added 20-sec timeout
4-29 random expectation is all equipment
5-6 All illegal equipment is a 1-non-releasbel penalty

1996 and before
???

[Snake~eyes]

I remember that thread, but it wasn't me posting it. I *will* try to compile the NCAA vs. NFHS differences when the rulebooks come out, though.

Speaking of nominations, I'd appreciate it if you'd vote for me for COC secretary if you're COC members. I'm the first one listed on the ballot.
COC? What's that stand for again?

[CoachRob]

I believe it's a fringe lunatic group "Crackdown On Coaches" practiced by religious zealots in the Peruvian Andies. But that's just off the top of my head. LaxRef has displayed some expertise in this area, apparently.

[LaxRef]

COC? What's that stand for again?


Collegiate Officials Committee. It's the certification you need to do college club (USLIA) games and NCAA (USILA) games.

[CoachRob]

Is there a website?

[LaxRef]

Is there a website?

http://www.uslacrosse.org/mens_div/mdoccoc.phtml

[ploaref]

The College Officials Committee is a division of the Men's Division Officials Council, a section of the US Lacrosse National Governing Body. Sadly, the COC tends to dominate issues within the MDOC, largely ignoring officiating issues at "lower" levels of the game and has, for the past several years, focused primarily on upping the fee that college officials earn, at the expense of other important things like officials training, development, recognition and the "giving back" to the lower levels of the game that are so critical.

[Snake~eyes]

How many people are on the ballot for Secretary?

[LaxRef]

How many people are on the ballot for Secretary?

Just two people.

[eme]

Ploref is a bit off in his assessment of the COC. Under the US Lacrosse umbrella of the MDOC, the Collegiate Officials Committee is charged with recruiting, training, certifying, providing, and representing officials as they work college games. Other ref committees under this umbrella serve youth games, international games, masters/club games, high-school games, etc. etc. Providing services for the "lower" levels of the sport is not in the COC's mandate.

Ploref is correct that the COC has been tied up with fee and mileage reimbursements negotiations, in the past year: both for the USILA games (varsity) and the MDIA games (club varsity). Contracts had ended and new ones had to be drawn up with the coaches group(s) who represent their teams. The negotiations were long and involved lots of work. However, I would add this past year the COC has been much more involved in things like ethics, observation programs for new(er) officials, mechanics, etc. and even having long-time official Walt Munze represent the officials at the annual NCAA rules committee meeting has been a long-overdue first.

US Lacrosse recognizes that the sport's biggest need right now is qualified referees and qualified coaches. They have been doing some good work in the past few years on the referee side: a training video, training manuals and tests, email hotline to direct inquires from prospective refs, etc. I have had a chance to work with all these tools here in Vermont on the local level (trying to get hs refs) and they have been invaluable.

I share people's frustrations with the NFHS rules group and the rulebook. But my complaint in the past has been a lack of communication or a way to get an answer to a question. I felt like I was dealing with North Korea: send in a query and get either no answer or a quixotic one. This has changed with the new NFHS rules chairman, Ron Belinko. He has communicated well and is willing to embrace suggestions. Walt Munze and I write the annual NCAA/FED
rule differences and this year Ron was right on top of the questions I had for him. (I have a draft copy of those differences now...we are going to wait until after the December NCAA meeting in Orlando, FL before going public with it...if you'd like to see a draft...lemme know). Ron will be at the Philly convention and runs the Saturday afternoon Fed. rules meeting. I also have his email if someone needs it.

Eric Evans
COC Secretary

[ploaref]

i had no idea that we might one day get a visit from a COC Board member to our humble web forum. Thanks for dropping in Mr. Evans. i know your work and i respect you for the great effort you make on behalf of lacrosse officials everywhere.

Frustration for those of us tryin to improve things at the "lower end" of the officiating spectrum is perhaps understandable...the NGB for lacrosse has only been around for a few years. Many of us observing the evolution of the MDOC are concerned, and i think there ought to be some focus on some of these issues.

The MDOC is supposed to be the central group advocating and administering issues relative to ALL lacrosse officials. Recently, the MDOC has been dominated by the COC, which, truth be told, is MOST concerned with Division One level officials. Many feel the rest of the group as a whole is missing out.

Where does COC think they GET their officials? Up through the ranks of youth and high school groups, thats where. Why is there no one in the Scholastic Officials Committee (SOC) chair? Why is there no SOC? The YOC (Youth Officials Committee) has active people involved and is making great progress, but as far as the COC and the MDOC leadership in general is concerned, they might as well be reffing girls lacrosse, the involvement is so minimal.

How could they be involved? Well, one way would be: college officials should be encouraged to assist at the high school and youth levels with observations and mentoring. This may be happening locally, but no program exists under MDOC auspices that i am aware of. Let them do this is lieu of local dues, perhaps? A subject for the "SOC"s attention? You bet. it could be argued that most "bad habits" in lacrosse with regard to behavioral issues with coaches and players start at the youth level, where brand new officials are thrust without much training or mentoring. It's down there that griping and bad language starts to become OK because new, young officials are not trained well enough to stop it. Lets focus on it more...

Perhaps you or Mr. Curcio (sp?) could enlighten us about what the status of the new Observer program is? In addition to hs and youth, I have worked Division 3 college lacrosse for over 15 years, and over that time, my real "review" has been the semi-official opinion of the small cadre of D-1 officials in my district who have the ear of the overworked DAA, and who also have their own positions in D1 to protect. The DAA himself observes folks and "rates" them, but everyone knows that little will come of it. There is no coherent mechanism for advancement beyond the DAA's opinion. We got observed by someone new this year, but the method and the post-game were largely the same old same old. i guess this program needs time to get up and running...what would perhaps help would be a more objective way to identify those that are content to remain working in the far-flung reaches of District 3, MDIA and NCLL lacrosse, and those that would genuinely wish to work up the ladder.

Last thing is this: the USL website has recently started to post SOME info relative to the MDOC...why couldn't a component of that site be a Board like this one, where issues could be aired by a larger portion of the officiating community? i luv the guys on this site, but there are only, like THREE regulars and about 4-6 more that may post occasionally. We really need a more visible place to exchange ideas and information...

[Although, come to think of it, if Mr. Evans is lurking here, perhaps there are others...hmmmm...]

sorry for the long rant...have a nice day...

[shrekjr]

Let the campaigning begin! Good luck to both of you.