Worst ref...

[NickBritt]

I had had to play an indoor game with two man down the entire game because the ref problly thought we were playing girls lacrosse and called a penilty for fare checks the whole game...

still won tho :chuckle:

[BCHSlax99]

dude the same refs ripped us out of 2 games last year 1st and last game... let the clock run in 4th to make time for the other team to score and tie it up...Also bs calls everyone knew it even the other coach...PISSESSSS ME OFF

[laxdevil666]

we have this guy in indoor, we call him the peace maker cause he lets you get away with crazy illeagal checks and all he says "you guys do it too, it's only fair". he's not a good ref if your looking for a call, but he lets us play the ame, with out calling a slash cause you wrapchecked someone and hit ther stick out of their hands, or you tomohawked their stick while they were shooting. but he makes the necessary calls.

[monmlax]

i remember this one game i got jacked in the back on a 20 yard running start after i scored a goal. I got called for throwing my stick, in the meantime i was on the ground kia. horrible ref.

[Lacrosstitute]

That's why I dont like fall league. Even what would be considered a great check in Spring season is called, makes me mad. And they say fall league is to have fun, but with the way they stop the games all the time for penalties it takes away from that.

[LiveAtWoodstock]

Try having a ref that was blind, he called a ball out even though it was ten feet in bounds, and he calls every little stick check as a slash, hes a gimp, plain and simple.

[LAXatt]

we had the worst ref by far. he gave our best player a 3 minute penalty for a poke check. and made absolutely no calls agains the other team. we had 24 minutes in penalties that game. about 2 minutes of wich were true.

[aussielax]

Dude bad refs welcome to Australia i rekon every week at least one of the refs that is refin our game, Son is playin so the other team are untouchable and they can do wateva they want to you.

[monmlax]

that is illinois lax buddy. join the club

[liveforlax19]

dude the same refs screwed us out of 2 games last year 1st and last game... let the clock run in 4th to make time for the other team to score and tie it up...Also bs calls everyone knew it even the other coach...PISSESSSS ME OFF


if the game was running late in the day, and it was getting dark... they are required to let the clock run, i think its a rule... i kno it is in NY

if it was just a day game, then i dunno... looks like u got cheated

[Dan]

HEY! THIS BELONGS IN THE RULES FORUM! NOT GENERAL!

[Lacrosstitute]

My fall league refs are stupid. During the regular season, my team got about 1-2 slash/illegal body check type penalties a game. During the fall, we had the recordkeepers book after 10 minutes.

I feel your pain, since we probably have had the same refs.

[NickBritt]

if the game was running late in the day, and it was getting dark... they are required to let the clock run, i think its a rule... i know it is in NY

if it was just a day game, then i dunno... looks like u got cheated


I wasn't saying anything about rules.. just that my ref stunk...

[CoachRob]

if the game was running late in the day, and it was getting dark...they are required to let the clock run, I think its a rule... I know it is in NY

If it was just a day game, then i dunno... looks like you got cheated

Can you cite the rule?

In NFHS there is no provision(s) regarding darkness of play. Rule 2-6.3 states the official may suspend play for any reason deemed necessary for the proper enforcement of the rules of the conduct of the game.

Rule 3-5 allows ...if a game is interrupted because of events beyond the control of the responsible authorities, it shall be continued from the point of interruprion unless there are conference, league, or state rules to cover the situation...By mutual agreeement of the coaches and approval of the referee, any period may be shortened or the game terminated. Certainly darkness would fall under this category. In a game that is a blow out, I don't see either coach making a fuss about letting the score stand.

Regarding weather, there is a preamble to the rules regarding LIGHTNING and what a ref must do in such a situation. But darkness is not mentioned.

There is no rule that permits the ref to keep a clock running when daylight is fading. I suppose he could discuss it with the coaches, and decide to use a running clock. The only case cited in the back of the rulebook that is anywhere near on point is when a coach requests the quarters be shortened to accommodate a long trip home. However, the ruling in this case points out that ...the rules do not provide authority to agree to play anything other than 12 minute periods although this case does contradict 3-5.

So, by using a running clock, you can get a "full" 12 minute period, but technically, such a running clock may only be used if there is a 10-point differential in the second half of a game. In such a case, the clock is stopped ONLY for a team time-out, a referee time-out, or an injury time-out.

While the ref may have been doing what he considered to be the right thing, he should have played with the regular clock rules until such time as it was too dark to continue, and then stopped the game on account of darkness. The game could then be continued at a later date.

I see one problem with a ref doing it your way. Supose he uses a running clock fearing it will be too dark to play the full period under normal rules. What happens if under a running clock the game ends and it is still light enough for the game to have continued? He cannot put time BACK on the clock, so he is stuck, depriving the trailing team time to mount a comeback. A coach would have excellent grounds for an appeal. In my method, using the regular clock rules, if time is remaining in the period but it is too dark to continue, then he has followed the rules and there is no basis for a coach's appeal. He simply cannot allow a game to continue if the safety of the players is in question.

LaxRef and Snake~eyes have probably come across this issue; I have not but believe what I wrote to be true. Of course, local governing boards may write rules to cover these types of issues that are not listed in the NFHS rules as stated in Rule 3-5.

I hope this answers your question.

[Snake~eyes]

Can you cite the rule?

In NFHS there is no provision(s) regarding darkness of play. Rule 2-6.3 states the official may suspend play for any reason deemed necessary for the proper enforcement of the rules of the conduct of the game.

Rule 3-5 allows ...if a game is interrupted because of events beyond the control of the responsible authorities, it shall be continued from the point of interruprion unless there are conference, league, or state rules to cover the situation...By mutual agreeement of the coaches and approval of the referee, any period may be shortened or the game terminated. Certainly darkness would fall under this category. In a game that is a blow out, I don't see either coach making a fuss about letting the score stand.

Regarding weather, there is a preamble to the rules regarding LIGHTNING and what a ref must do in such a situation. But darkness is not mentioned.

There is no rule that permits the ref to keep a clock running when daylight is fading. I suppose he could discuss it with the coaches, and decide to use a running clock. The only case cited in the back of the rulebook that is anywhere near on point is when a coach requests the quarters be shortened to accommodate a long trip home. However, the ruling in this case points out that ...the rules do not provide authority to agree to play anything other than 12 minute periods although this case does contradict 3-5.

So, by using a running clock, you can get a "full" 12 minute period, but technically, such a running clock may only be used if there is a 10-point differential in the second half of a game. In such a case, the clock is stopped ONLY for a team time-out, a referee time-out, or an injury time-out.

While the ref may have been doing what he considered to be the right thing, he should have played with the regular clock rules until such time as it was too dark to continue, and then stopped the game on account of darkness. The game could then be continued at a later date.

I see one problem with a ref doing it your way. Supose he uses a running clock fearing it will be too dark to play the full period under normal rules. What happens if under a running clock the game ends and it is still light enough for the game to have continued? He cannot put time BACK on the clock, so he is stuck, depriving the trailing team time to mount a comeback. A coach would have excellent grounds for an appeal. In my method, using the regular clock rules, if time is remaining in the period but it is too dark to continue, then he has followed the rules and there is no basis for a coach's appeal. He simply cannot allow a game to continue if the safety of the players is in question.

LaxRef and Snake~eyes have probably come across this issue; I have not but believe what I wrote to be true. Of course, local governing boards may write rules to cover these types of issues that are not listed in the NFHS rules as stated in Rule 3-5.

I hope this answers your question.
Too technical CoachRob, I believe they're talking about a league here, not a regular season HS game.

[CoachRob]

Too technical CoachRob, I believe they're talking about a league here, not a regular season HS game.

Snake, I wish you had told me this BEFORE I posted this long response. :banghead:

As usual, you're a bit too late to save me all my hard work! :concerned

But the issue is one I'm sure has come up during regular school games. How have you handled it?

[Snake~eyes]

But the issue is one I'm sure has come up during regular school games. How have you handled it?
Believe it or not, around here we have somthing called lights. :agree:

[LaxRef]

Believe it or not, around here we have somthing called lights. :agree:

A lot of places that have lights give you enough illumination for soccer or football, but in general you need stronger lights to see a lacrosse ball because it's a lot smaller. I know one of the leagues in Minnesota said they wouldn't use a particular field unless they upgraded the lighting.

[CoachRob]

Around here, we don't have lights on the fields. In our township, the only lighted field is the high school football field. And we cannot use it for lacrosse.

[LaxRef]

Hmmm. I see a lot of guys complaining about the officiating in their games. I think that before you complain, you should actually:

1) Read the rulebook.

2) Read it a few more times until you really understand it.

3) Learn officiating mechanics.

4) Try officiating a few games to see how hard it is.

Of course, it's much easier to complain about things you don't fully understand and blame them for your team losing games than it is to get better at the game.

Sorry if I'm coming down on you guys kind of hard, but do any of your teams ever play a perfect game, where no one drops a pass, misses a ground ball, commits a foul, or takes a shot that doesn't score? If you never have perfect games, why do you think that's a reasonable expectation of the officials?

Furthermore, new officials aren't very good, just like new players aren't very good. New officials need time to learn to be good officials. However, many new officials get driven away by people complaining about all of their mistakes long before they get a chance to become good, experienced officials.

Suppose you wanted to start playing lacrosse and they had you read some stuff about how to play and you sat in a class where they told you how to play, but you never got to handle a stick or anything. Then they put you right into a varsity game, and everyone spent the whole time telling you how bad you sucked. Would it be the kind of experience that would make you want to keep playing? That's what it's like for most new officials.

For many areas of the country, bad officiating is guaranteed year after year, because every year so many people quit because they're sick of being berated by people who don't even know the rules. Then the next year they have to train a bunch of new people who know a whole lot less than the ones who quit, and it never gets any better. Most of the time, it takes 3 years for an official to really get to the point where he or she knows what they're doing, but often they get put on varsity games in the first year of officiating because there's no one else to do it.

[ploaref]

Just 2 cents here, but what i see a lot is that the people that run fall leagues, indoor and out, NEVER like to pay much for the refs. The pay is so low that the guys doing the games are players who THINK they know the rules, are freinds of the guy running the league, or are newer guys trying to get some field time using weird rules that end up being modified outdoor rules in an indoor environment that doesn't lend itself well to outdoor type rules. Lots of time the indoor leagues around here only use ONE official.

Is this where to be scrimpin on costs? These guys may be tryin to make money in the wrong place...ask YOUR league poobah if he's usin the "regular" refs...

[shrekjr]

Hmmm. I see a lot of guys complaining about the officiating in their games. I think that before you complain, you should actually:

1) Read the rulebook.

2) Read it a few more times until you really understand it.

3) Learn officiating mechanics.

4) Try officiating a few games to see how hard it is.

Of course, it's much easier to complain about things you don't fully understand and blame them for your team losing games than it is to get better at the game.

Sorry if I'm coming down on you guys kind of hard, but do any of your teams ever play a perfect game, where no one drops a pass, misses a ground ball, commits a foul, or takes a shot that doesn't score? If you never have perfect games, why do you think that's a reasonable expectation of the officials?

Furthermore, new officials aren't very good, just like new players aren't very good. New officials need time to learn to be good officials. However, many new officials get driven away by people complaining about all of their mistakes long before they get a chance to become good, experienced officials.

Suppose you wanted to start playing lacrosse and they had you read some stuff about how to play and you sat in a class where they told you how to play, but you never got to handle a stick or anything. Then they put you right into a varsity game, and everyone spent the whole time telling you how bad you sucked. Would it be the kind of experience that would make you want to keep playing? That's what it's like for most new officials.

For many areas of the country, bad officiating is guaranteed year after year, because every year so many people quit because they're sick of being berated by people who don't even know the rules. Then the next year they have to train a bunch of new people who know a whole lot less than the ones who quit, and it never gets any better. Most of the time, it takes 3 years for an official to really get to the point where he or she knows what they're doing, but often they get put on varsity games in the first year of officiating because there's no one else to do it.

Well said! Let me know when there is a thread for experienced officials to bash players who make bad plays.

[LaxRef]

Just 2 cents here, but what i see a lot is that the people that run fall leagues, indoor and out, NEVER like to pay much for the refs. The pay is so low that the guys doing the games are players who THINK they know the rules, are freinds of the guy running the league, or are newer guys trying to get some field time using weird rules that end up being modified outdoor rules in an indoor environment that doesn't lend itself well to outdoor type rules. Lots of time the indoor leagues around here only use ONE official.

Is this where to be scrimpin on costs? These guys may be tryin to make money in the wrong place...ask YOUR league poobah if he's usin the "regular" refs...

That really is an excellent point. I've worked hard to become a good official. I go to seminars, I study the rules, I work a lot of games, I spend money on unfiroms, dues, and equipment, and I expect to be fairly compensated for all of that. When someone offers me $10 an hour to officiate, the click you hear is me hanging up the phone as fast as possible. That barely covers my gas, let alone the cost of my time for getting my gear together, getting dressed, driving there, working and appying my skills, driving home, and washing my uniform.

Let me put it this way: I wouldn't drive to the arena and sit quietly in a chair for $10 an hour, so I'm sure not going to officiate for that.

So, if you're a player and you don't like the officiating in your fall league, find out what they're paying the officials. Chances are, not much, and if so you should complain until they pay enough to attract good officials. Your league fees will likely go up a little, though.

(BTW, the perfect situation for these fall games is to have one really experienced guy and one newbie, so by spring the newbie has some idea what's going on for the "real" season. In this case, paying the new guy less than the experienced guy makes sense. Once you get to the regular season, I think everyone should get paid the same rate.)

[ploaref]

(BTW, the perfect situation for these fall games is to have one really experienced guy and one newbie, so by spring the newbie has some idea what's going on for the "real" season. In this case, paying the new guy less than the experienced guy makes sense. Once you get to the regular season, I think everyone should get paid the same rate.)


My suggestion is (and has been) that rookies and first years should be required by their LOAs to come to these indoor leagues to work a few games for FREE (alongside an experienced trainer or mentor). This way, the newcomer gets the experience and the "hall" gets more and better coverage on it's games for a lesser cost.

In a summer league i used to play in many moons ago, an old seasoned ref, when confronted by a loud fan on the sideline, would walk over to him during a dead ball and talk to him seriously about getting involved. "Hey. You seem to know a lot about the rules. Would you consider coming out to get a little training and get PAID to make calls like you're making for free now??" If it didn't get them out to ref, at least it tended to diffuse the situation a bit...

Happy Turkey Day everyone...remember, it's time to start RUNNING after this holiday! Season's just around the corner!!

[LaxRef]

My suggestion is (and has been) that rookies and first years should be required by their LOAs to come to these indoor leagues to work a few games for FREE (alongside an experienced trainer or mentor). This way, the newcomer gets the experience and the "hall" gets more and better coverage on it's games for a lesser cost.

This is a great idea. However, as I'm sure you know, it's CRITICAL that they be out there with an experienced guy. Many areas require new officials to at least work a scrimmage, but this usually isn't enough for them to get the most basic "Don't blow the whistle right away on loose ball technicals and fouls against the team with possession" idea worked out.

In a summer league i used to play in many moons ago, an old seasoned ref, when confronted by a loud fan on the sideline, would walk over to him during a dead ball and talk to him seriously about getting involved. "Hey. You seem to

. . . think you . . .

know a lot about the rules. Would you consider coming out to get a little training and get PAID to make calls like you're making for free now??" If it didn't get them out to ref, at least it tended to diffuse the situation a bit...

Yeah, I've used this approach and never seen anyone take me up on it. Most of those idiots yelling stuff at the officials are cowards; not the type to step out on the field in stripes.

Happy Turkey Day everyone...remember, it's time to start RUNNING after this holiday! Season's just around the corner!!

Aw, man! I just ran a Marathon last month. Isn't that good enough? :chuckle:

[CoachRob]

Happy Turkey Day everyone

To you too!!

...remember, it's time to start RUNNING after this holiday! Season's just around the corner!!

I own a Cannondale road bike. Much easier on the knees and you get to see the sights. Does that count??

[ploaref]

I own a Cannondale road bike. Much easier on the knees and you get to see the sights. Does that count??

When they let you out on the field on a bike, it'll be OK! :thumbsup:

Hey! You're a coach...you can go as "BIG" as you want! Go for the GUSTO! err, the cranberry sauce, that is...