Bush and Fascism.

[GCHSLax04]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Just something to Keep the political forum alive.

[Longest]

That's an interesting read. To me, IMO, it is clear that this country is not a fascist state (I'll add yet to appease some of you militants). Could it be in the future? Possibly. But most of those points has plenty of non-fascistic counterpoints. Nevertheless, thanks for posting that.

Dan

[GCHSLax04]

I thought it was quite interesting. Now I for one don't like Bush much, I don't like kerry much either (not the point) I'm rather libertarian and have very little opinion until we get to the more personal matters. I found this to be quite amusing. As you said we are clearly not fascist, I'd agree. However I could easily see some sort of pseudo-fascist state in the future. Who knows.

[Longest]

I did a quick rundown/comparison of it on my blog, I had 4 points I agreed with and 10 that I disagreed.
http://politicalfeedbag.blogspot.com

Dan

[GCHSLax04]

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
Argument: Rally the country around enemies in a patriotic frenzy.
I don't buy this one either. The country is being rallied for war support, support for our troops and support for action to secure Iraqi freedom, not to round up towelheads and march them into a gas chamber.

I would disagree with this. During the initiative it was we need to unite against these people that attacked us. Rise up, show them america isn't afraid. Osama Osama Osama, Saddam Saddam Saddam. This may have changed later on in the war becuase we had no individual target, seeing as the gorvernment wanted to let Osama fade to the background and play up the capture of Saddam more.
I would have given this one a nod.

Theres a few other things out there that I disagreed with as well, but thats generally how it goes.

[Longest]

I would disagree with this. During the initiative it was we need to unite against these people that attacked us. Rise up, show them america isn't afraid. Osama Osama Osama, Saddam Saddam Saddam. This may have changed later on in the war becuase we had no individual target, seeing as the gorvernment wanted to let Osama fade to the background and play up the capture of Saddam more.
I would have given this one a nod.

Theres a few other things out there that I disagreed with as well, but thats generally how it goes.

But what's being pushed is NOT the inherent evil of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia or its inhabitants, but rather the need to remove their leaders. During WW2 we interned those of Japanese heritage but I don't see us rounding up Muslims and their sympathizers and locking them away.

Dan

[GCHSLax04]

I agree, I definitly don't think the general populace hasn't been "kind" towards the muslim population since 9/11, but we certainly aren't rounding them up. The only targeting I've seen is at overseas major terrorist leaders. Not any races as a whole.

[aussielax]

I would disagree with this. During the initiative it was we need to unite against these people that attacked us. Rise up, show them america isn't afraid. Osama Osama Osama, Saddam Saddam Saddam. This may have changed later on in the war becuase we had no individual target, seeing as the gorvernment wanted to let Osama fade to the background and play up the capture of Saddam more.
I would have given this one a nod.

Theres a few other things out there that I disagreed with as well, but thats generally how it goes.

The thing that most american dont realise is the The US has made itself a target over the past 30-40 years by interfearing with other countries, engineering revolutions, supporting questionable certin organizations, toppleing democracraticly elected leaders and replacing them with US controled pupet govts. Most americans have no idea why 9/11 happened and no idea why american interests are attacked worldwide. hell most people dont even no that ossama bin laden was trained and armed and funded by the united states in the 80's. And until they are made aware of why they are hated by many around the world they will continue to support the way there countrie is run by the facist govt. And inoccent people around the world will continuse to be killed by the US and terrorists (even though there is not a great difference between the 2 ).

[GCHSLax04]

I enjoy the opinion of someone outside the US, it really is helpful in putting things into place. I agree to aome extent with what you said. The US and their placement of leaders in some places is unnecessary, was Saddam necessary? I have no clue. I've heard tons of things he's done but I couldn't decide to come to the conclusion that we need to take over their country and place new leaders. I think the US needs to remember how we obtained our freedom. And let other countrys do the same.

[Longest]

The thing that most american dont realise is the The US has made itself a target over the past 30-40 years by interfearing with other countries, engineering revolutions, supporting questionable certin organizations, toppleing democracraticly elected leaders and replacing them with US controled pupet govts. Most americans have no idea why 9/11 happened and no idea why american interests are attacked worldwide. hell most people dont even no that ossama bin laden was trained and armed and funded by the united states in the 80's. And until they are made aware of why they are hated by many around the world they will continue to support the way there countrie is run by the facist govt. And inoccent people around the world will continuse to be killed by the US and terrorists (even though there is not a great difference between the 2 ).

You have said nothing that hasn't been mentioned here, nor have you backed up anything with facts. Puppet gov't? Back it up with some facts.

As for this country not being a great difference between terrorists, I don't think the majority of the country shares that view. Are you suggesting that all Australians are cognizant of the reasons behind anti-American sentiment and ppl in this country are dullards?

What about the peacekeeping and relief missions into Bosnia, Somalia, et al. You fail to mention any of the good this country has done.

[aussielax]

1953: US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran
US installs Shah as dictator
1954: US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of
Guatemala.
200,000 civilians killed
1963: US backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975:
American Military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia
Sept 11, 1973:
US stages coup in Chile
Democratically elected President Salvador Allende
Assassinated
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed
5,000 Chileans murdered
1977: US backs military rulers of El Salvador
70,000 Salvadorans and four Amercian nuns killed
1980's:US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets
CIA gives them $3 billion
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras."
1982: US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to
kill Iranians
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama)
disobeys orders from Washington.
US invades Panama and removes Noriega who hasn't been as
cooperative as they require him to be. Washington's main aim in
invading Panama was to maintain control of the Panama Canal.
The Panama Canal treaty giving the U.S. control was about to expire
and said that control would revert to Panama if Panama had military
forces in place to protect the canal.
In this 1989 invasion, Washington wiped out Panama's military, along with
about 6,000 Panamanian civilians who were also murdered. Whatever happened
to that guy? Last I heard he was illegally arrested by the US Government
and imprisoned in Florida. I wonder if Bush had him killed and there's a
double in that federal prison in Miami? Probably.
Bush, senior is an evil monster. His son is even more dangerous because he
is a stupid, immoral *******, to boot.
1990:Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US
1991:US enters Iraq
Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait
1991 - present:
American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis.
UN estimates well over 700,000 Iraqi children have died from
bombing and sanctions
1998:Clinton bombs "weapon factory" in Sudan Factory in fact made aspirin.
2000-01: US gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in 'aid'
Sept 11, 2001:Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000
people

Here are some reasons why some people don't like the US government very much

Now i never said that australian people are more knowlegable about why the US is a terrorist target and if people knew Why they were a target our country would no be so closely allieying itself with the US because as most americans don't know Australia is a high level terrorist target aswell.

I never mentioned the good things that the US has done because if i wanted to praise the US govt i wouldn't arguing the case that i am.

[Longest]

1953: US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran
US installs Shah as dictator
1954: US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of
Guatemala.
200,000 civilians killed
1963: US backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975:
American Military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia
Sept 11, 1973:
US stages coup in Chile
Democratically elected President Salvador Allende
Assassinated
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed
5,000 Chileans murdered
1977: US backs military rulers of El Salvador
70,000 Salvadorans and four Amercian nuns killed
1980's:US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets
CIA gives them $3 billion
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras."
1982: US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to
kill Iranians
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama)
disobeys orders from Washington.
US invades Panama and removes Noriega who hasn't been as
cooperative as they require him to be. Washington's main aim in
invading Panama was to maintain control of the Panama Canal.
The Panama Canal treaty giving the U.S. control was about to expire
and said that control would revert to Panama if Panama had military
forces in place to protect the canal.
In this 1989 invasion, Washington wiped out Panama's military, along with
about 6,000 Panamanian civilians who were also murdered. Whatever happened
to that guy? Last I heard he was illegally arrested by the US Government
and imprisoned in Florida. I wonder if Bush had him killed and there's a
double in that federal prison in Miami? Probably.
Bush, senior is an evil monster. His son is even more dangerous because he
is a stupid, immoral *******, to boot.
1990:Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US
1991:US enters Iraq
Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait
1991 - present:
American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis.
UN estimates well over 700,000 Iraqi children have died from
bombing and sanctions
1998:Clinton bombs "weapon factory" in Sudan Factory in fact made aspirin.
2000-01: US gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in 'aid'
Sept 11, 2001:Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000
people

Here are some reasons why some people don't like the US government very much

Now i never said that australian people are more knowlegable about why the US is a terrorist target and if people knew Why they were a target our country would no be so closely allieying itself with the US because as most americans don't know Australia is a high level terrorist target aswell.

I never mentioned the good things that the US has done because if i wanted to praise the US govt i wouldn't arguing the case that i am.

Those aren't reasons, those are events. The situations are relevant only if we were to examine the climate of the time, the alternatives to the taken action. I'm not going to argue that the US is 100% free and clear but it's obvious you have no affection for the US and wish to denigrate it. To that end you ignore the US' good acts when they are clearly relevant to a discussion of international sentiment.

Dan

[anjang86]

The situations are relevant only if we were to examine the climate of the time, the alternatives to the taken action. Dan

You might be suggesting that there is not alternative, well there is always the DO NOTHING METHOD.

What you need to understand is that a lot, A LOT of people outside the US feel the same way as aussielax.

You can either acknowledge that or sweep it under the rug and just point out the good that America has done.

[Longest]

You might be suggesting that there is not alternative, well there is always the DO NOTHING METHOD.

What you need to understand is that a lot, A LOT of people outside the US feel the same way as aussielax.

You can either acknowledge that or sweep it under the rug and just point out the good that America has done.

Then that's an alternative Anjan but most any action has several possibilities, not just 1. And I understand a lot of people feel that way, where did I say they didn't? I stated that listing a timeline are not, in and of themselves, reasons. No matter what you do, you are going to make enemies. Fact. Doesn't matter if you work in business, you work for the goverment, you are the government. Not everyone wants what you want. I stated that I was not going to take the party line and defend the US 100% on every issue. I haven't defended them on a single specific issue, I am defending them on the principle that this country is not a terrorist nation as stated by aussielax and I am saying that the good things we do certainly bear mentioning in a dialogue on worldwide sentiment. Btw, I'd feel much better about yoru "a LOT" if you brought me statistics instead of just saying it several times.

Dan

[aussielax]

I didn't man to say that America is a terrorist nation what i meant to say is that when al queda or hamas or islamic jihad or even the IRA kill in incocent person they are called terrorists and murderers (and they may be) but when the US is responsable for the deaths of innocent people they are not concidered to be terrorists they are not called murderers.

And yes with no matter what most countries do they will have enemies. But i'm sure a counrty like say Danmark,Ireland,switzerland,Canada i'm sure there are people who dislike these countries but nowone has tried to attack them you dont see people burning danish flags in there street and chanting death to danmark. I guess its to late for the US to try and make peace with there enemy but perhaps if they changed the way they delt with things they wouldnt make any more enemies.

Oh yeah and people have found reason from those events.

[Longest]

I didn't man to say that America is a terrorist nation what i meant to say is that when al queda or hamas or islamic jihad or even the IRA kill in incocent person they are called terrorists and murderers (and they may be) but when the US is responsable for the deaths of innocent people they are not concidered to be terrorists they are not called murderers.

And yes with no matter what most countries do they will have enemies. But i'm sure a counrty like say Danmark,Ireland,switzerland,Canada i'm sure there are people who dislike these countries but nowone has tried to attack them you dont see people burning danish flags in there street and chanting death to danmark. I guess its to late for the US to try and make peace with there enemy but perhaps if they changed the way they delt with things they wouldnt make any more enemies.

Oh yeah and people have found reason from those events.

The difference is the US does not set out to kill innocents, that is not the goal. Palestinian bombers, car bombs, 9/11, those target innocents. You're right about the neutral countries not inspiring hate but they do not make anyone feel good. You don't call them to bail you out, you don't call them for aid because they 'll cut and run if things get rough. Maybe if we run out of cheese and cuckoo clocks, Switzerland to the rescue.

"People" have, you did not list the reasons nor the "people".

You have provided intersting dialogue though.

Dan

[aussielax]

I have this thing on a sheet i got for geography at school listing the main aid giving countries USA, Denmark, Belgum, Finland, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Portugal, UK, Canada, New Zeland, Australia, Germany, The Netherlands and france just to name a few. And as for the cutting and running well i dont know there are still plenty of french, danish and german aid workers and the money and food and other resources still seem to be flowing in to the country. What about the americans i guess they were to busy bombing asprin i mean wepons factories.

[Longest]

I have this thing on a sheet i got for geography at school listing the main aid giving countries USA, Denmark, Belgum, Finland, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Portugal, UK, Canada, New Zeland, Australia, Germany, The Netherlands and france just to name a few. And as for the cutting and running well i dont know there are still plenty of french, danish and german aid workers and the money and food and other resources still seem to be flowing in to the country. What about the americans i guess they were to busy bombing asprin i mean wepons factories.

And yet in your previous post you only listed Denmark, Ireland, Switzerland, and Canada. You also did not list the blossoming scandal involving the thought to be real reason for France and Germany's refusal to fight, specifically the incredible corruption of the UN oil for food program and the profits gained by the aforementioned countries. 23% of imports into Iraq are from France, which side do you think their bread is buttered on? Obvoiusly the current regime guaranteeing them money. Who knows what a revolution will bring in that department.

The aspirin bombing was by an impeached President who did so to take the heat off himself. You will not hear me defend those actions, only condemn them. I'm sure one of the Democrats will try to defend them though.

Dan

[aussielax]

In my previous post I was just nameing a few nutral countries of the top of my head that had nothing to do with the aid program. And if i recal correctly the french and the germans wern't the ones who (as stated in one of my pervious posts) gave Saddam billions to buy wepons to fight the Irainians. When the united states did this they did know that saddam was a killer so don't hide behind the oh we didnt know that he could do with his wepons excuse because the US govt saw how he took power by masacaring the parliment and then installing himself as the leader of the country. So France and Germany may have been helping him obtain funding for his own personal use but they wernt arming him to kill.

[Longest]

In my previous post I was just nameing a few nutral countries of the top of my head that had nothing to do with the aid program. And if i recal correctly the french and the germans wern't the ones who (as stated in one of my pervious posts) gave Saddam billions to buy wepons to fight the Irainians. When the united states did this they did know that saddam was a killer so don't hide behind the oh we didnt know that he could do with his wepons excuse because the US govt saw how he took power by masacaring the parliment and then installing himself as the leader of the country. So France and Germany may have been helping him obtain funding for his own personal use but they wernt arming him to kill.

You once again are clouded by a black and white version of history coupled with pure anti-American sentiment. I am about done with this thread in reference to you since all you wish to do is denigrate, not have a real discussion.

Dan

[aussielax]

Oh well i'm sorry it is aufuly hard to hold a conversation without it breaking out into an argument when the two people talking have conficting veiws over the issue that is being discussed.

[Longest]

Oh well i'm sorry it is aufuly hard to hold a conversation without it breaking out into an argument when the two people talking have conficting veiws over the issue that is being discussed.

It's not the views, it's your attitude. I'm all for a discussion but I will not have one with someone who chooses to insult and degrade and then offer no sources.

Dan

[GCHSLax04]

To get back on track with the whole thing, when they say the populace was whipped into a frenzy at a target (paraphrasing to the extreme) would that be viewed against Saddam and Osama or the entirety of the arab race?

[Longest]

To get back on track with the whole thing, when they say the populace was whipped into a frenzy at a target (paraphrasing to the extreme) would that be viewed against Saddam and Osama or the entirety of the arab race?

It's hard to say. I believe what he's saying is that Fascists whip people into a frenzy against a group/culture/race. I don't believe that is what is happening in this country though. He left out quite a bit of information on why he decided on those 14 points which would have been helpful.

Dan

[GCHSLax04]

True, otherwise I'd definitly say that the point regarding the people being rallied against X is true. At the beginning of it all it was Osama osama we must get osama. The people rallied against the terrorists rose up and cursed osamas name. Then the government eased off of Osama and quit playing the name up (I'm guessing they lost any leads they had) and began to Preach on how they were to capture the cruel Saddam, who killed his own people. The populace then hated Saddam. Now that saddam is captured it seems like Osama may be coming back. Who knows.

[aussielax]

Yeah i think the US govt. won't put the spotlight on osama because they obviosly are having trouble finding him. I'm sure they will be able to sell a story to the american people about how they should all forget about osama and give the govt there support in trying to take down someone else.

[Frndlefire]

Yeah i think the US govt. won't put the spotlight on osama because they obviosly are having trouble finding him. I'm sure they will be able to sell a story to the american people about how they should all forget about osama and give the govt there support in trying to take down someone else. and the conspiracy theorist would ask why they would have to sell a story when they have already done such a good job making us forget.http://www.mscclan.com/forum/images/smilies/devil.gif

[Frndlefire]

There isnt a spotlight on him because nothing big is happening. Chasing someone down isnt exactly the most eventful thing out there...

"nothing's happening...nothing's happening...something about a map...nothing's happening... it's over. A lot of people in the audience look pissed."

[LatinBabe]

when i think about current situations, i have a hard time seeing anyone with sense acting much different than Bush. and the military should be glorified. soldiers get paid crud to risk their lives for us, and they are proud of it. we should be proud of them and support them, glorify them as much as possible, because they are extra-ordinary people, especailly in todays world were liberall pro-life is accepted and men are no longer expected to be the macho men they once were.

[Frndlefire]

However there is a difference between supporting our troops and supporting our president/the war. I have always been a stong supporter of the armed forces, I have a couple friends who are Marines and one at the Naval Academy, but I don't agree with the way things have been handled or our current exploits in the Middle East.

[BTlaxripper]

If you believe any of that muck, you obviously can't realize the fact that it isn't being printed by a foreign country, but by the Democratic party. . . it doesn't take more than 2 braincells to realize that.

If it was trying to be a serious attack on "fascism in the US" there wouldn't be a poster of a psuedo-republican supporter with the caption "It's not fascism when we do it."

There is no fascism in the US. Republicans are not the first to have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency. Democrats held control for the majority of this country's history. Except Republicans don't resort to touting false information and yellow-journalsim and name calling and exploiting people's fears and conspiracy theories to get their way.

It's just low blows by the Democratic party cashing in on people's vivid fears to turn votes. They've been doing it ever since the Republican party gained power. Honestly. . . when the Democrats were in power, did you see Republicans running around calling the fascists?

Honestly- it's politics, not childish games. Grow up, and take our country's future seriously, and not base it on the simple fact you want to regain power.

It disgusts me.

Hmmm...... let's peruse this website and see what other "patriotic" items we can find.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/docs3.htm

OH look! A whole section dedicating to exploiting loopholes so soldiers don't have to serve, and further discourage others from enlisting!

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/2_elections.htm

Now the US government is controlling elections? See, I thought I went to the polls and voted of free will, and the votes were counted my thousands of people from all political ideologies! Unless I'm blind, I haven't seen soldiers or politicians counting my votes.

And the final link that should steer you away from this poor excuse for a website:

http://civic.moveon.org/censure//caughtonvideo/

Any website linking anything to MoveOn.org is not worth your time. Originally created by a man and his wife our of their own pocket to tell people back in Clinton's administration to "Move on" and forget about his corruption and scandal, it is now the internet's forefront of Liberal propoganda, exploiting information that is taken out of context, false statistics, and just flat out lying.

---- I prefer the truth

[aussielax]

BT why did you bother bringing this thread back?

[TheKOB]

BT why did you bother bringing this thread back?

maybe because of this fun little quote....

"And yes with no matter what most countries do they will have enemies. But i'm sure a counrty like say Danmark,Ireland,switzerland,Canada i'm sure there are people who dislike these countries but nowone has tried to attack them you dont see people burning danish flags in there street and chanting death to danmark. I guess its to late for the US to try and make peace with there enemy but perhaps if they changed the way they delt with things they wouldnt make any more enemies."

I don't know how this thread slipped by me, but going back to the original post, that link uses an interesting tactic to define the bush administration as facist....it stretches the truth a lot and takes things out of proportion. If you buy any MMoore movie, you can buy that load of extreme partisan bs. How many of those would've applied to the Clinton administration? I get 1 ,3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13, and that's without the streeeeetch that is going on there....

Liberals are the minority? I thought it was darn near 50-50....oops...

[JoshM]

If you believe any of that muck, you obviously can't realize the fact that it isn't being printed by a foreign country, but by the Democratic party. . . it doesn't take more than 2 braincells to realize that.

If it was trying to be a serious attack on "fascism in the US" there wouldn't be a poster of a psuedo-republican supporter with the caption "It's not fascism when we do it."

There is no fascism in the US. Republicans are not the first to have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency. Democrats held control for the majority of this country's history. Except Republicans don't resort to touting false information and yellow-journalsim and name calling and exploiting people's fears and conspiracy theories to get their way.

No they didn't. And that's not really relevant anyway. Since the Republican and Democratic parties have changed drastically over the years.


It's just low blows by the Democratic party cashing in on people's vivid fears to turn votes. They've been doing it ever since the Republican party gained power. Honestly. . . when the Democrats were in power, did you see Republicans running around calling the fascists?

No, but George Bush wasn't the president.

Honestly- it's politics, not childish games. Grow up, and take our country's future seriously, and not base it on the simple fact you want to regain power.

It disgusts me.

Hmmm...... let's peruse this website and see what other "patriotic" items we can find.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/docs3.htm

OH look! A whole section dedicating to exploiting loopholes so soldiers don't have to serve, and further discourage others from enlisting!

What's wrong with that? Many soldiers who have already served their time are now being forced to go back to Iraq. It's a backdoor draft.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/2_elections.htm

Now the US government is controlling elections? See, I thought I went to the polls and voted of free will, and the votes were counted my thousands of people from all political ideologies! Unless I'm blind, I haven't seen soldiers or politicians counting my votes.

The picture they have is a bit of an exageration. I guess you're not familiar with the Diebold scandal. Basically, the company creates voting computers. But they have refused, numerous times, to make their source code open source. Which should make any American suspicious.


And the final link that should steer you away from this poor excuse for a website:

http://civic.moveon.org/censure//caughtonvideo/

Any website linking anything to MoveOn.org is not worth your time. Originally created by a man and his wife our of their own pocket to tell people back in Clinton's administration to "Move on" and forget about his corruption and scandal, it is now the internet's forefront of Liberal propoganda, exploiting information that is taken out of context, false statistics, and just flat out lying.

---- I prefer the truthI suppose you listen to Rush Limbaugh?

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

here are the thoughts of your favorite southern liberal on the whole Bush being fascist. Let's not be silly folks... sometimes we can go too far. The man doesnt support fascism. He is just further right on the political scale than what america has been used to in the past. This whole idea of protection over freedom baffles me, as i cant think of any reason why anyone would wanna give up their freedoms, but maybe it's just me. I agree that Bush is an absolutely terrible president, and that our country has only gone downhill, for the most part, since he was elected to office in 2000. I also disagree with some of the administration's moral ideals that they have been put into law; but again, those are matters of opinion.

Now, as for republicans rigging elections... congratulations, you just got caught up in a little something called liberal propaganda. they didnt rig the elections... they made a great political move and targetted those groups who have historically been in the republican demographic and made sure those people got out to vote... the democrats did the same; it's just that a large part of the democratic demographic are minorities, lower/middle class, and young adults, and these groups usually aren't known to make it out to the polls in great numbers.

Finally, i hate this idea that has arisen lately that democrats and republicans are constantly fighting with each other, when in reality, we should be working together with each other and compromising to come to agreements which benefit the country most... not each individual party.

[ColtsLax]

[QUOTE=GeorgiaMiddie2]He is just further right on the political scale than what america has been used to in the past. This whole idea of protection over freedom baffles me, as i cant think of any reason why anyone would wanna give up their freedoms, but maybe it's just me. [QUOTE]

nesecary evil. Unlimited freedom is possible, but at the expense of safty. On the other hand, a pure police state affords no rights the the citizens. Its a sliding scale, Freedom____US->_______________Saftey. The question is, where do we want to be on that scale.

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

to me, though, i just think we're going overboard with things such as illegal wire taps... i really dont want the government watching everything i'm doing.

[ColtsLax]

to me, though, i just think we're going overboard with things such as illegal wire taps... i really dont want the government watching everything i'm doing.
Ga, com on, you know there is no possible way you could listen to ALL the phone calls in america. They are not listening to the aaverage Americans phonecalls. Its the guys they know are talking to terrorists.

Now, i agree that Bush went about it the wrong way, but i still think we need to be able to listen to the phonecalls of terrorists or terrorist supporters.

[JoshM]

Ga, com on, you know there is no possible way you could listen to ALL the phone calls in america. They are not listening to the aaverage Americans phonecalls. Its the guys they know are talking to terrorists.

How do you know this??
Since George Bush believes he is above such things as courts and warrants, you don't.

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

True, the chances that they are listening to my phone calls are pretty low, but the fact still remains that we have no idea really who he is listening to, regardless of what he says in his little press conferences, due to the fact that he feels that he doesnt need to get a search warrant for such things.

[JoshM]

True, the chances that they are listening to my phone calls are pretty low, but the fact still remains that we have no idea really who he is listening to, regardless of what he says in his little press conferences, due to the fact that he feels that he doesnt need to get a search warrant for such things.
Exactly.

It doesn't take alot to associate you with terrorists either. The precedent for this has been set. An American has already been arrested because they worked with somebody who knew somebody who was associated with terrorists. And how did they find out about this? Illegal spying.

[ColtsLax]

How do you know this??
Since George Bush believes he is above such things as courts and warrants, you don't.
so you are saying that somehow, i guess we get assigned a chinese person who gets brought here, and their sole job is to listen in on each americans phonecalls. Somewhere under the foothills of the blueridge mountains in Virginia, is a secret under ground bunker with 3 million chinese people, one for each of us.

Put the Kool-Aid jug down

[Z12/AM]

"A house divided cannot stand"
i'm republican, but before that, i'm an american, just like a lot of you guys. let's just try to agree on something. and one more thing...
this country was founded on religious freedom. freedom, not an advertisement. religious beliefs should help dictate your actions and opinions, not using them to make you popular. our constitution was founded from the bible. why is it illegal to kill somone, to steal, to rape somebody? {thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultery}
just some food for thought...

[enjoi]

"A house divided cannot stand"
i'm republican, but before that, i'm an american, just like a lot of you guys. let's just try to agree on something. and one more thing...
this country was founded on religious freedom. freedom, not an advertisement. religious beliefs should help dictate your actions and opinions, not using them to make you popular. our constitution was founded from the bible. why is it illegal to kill somone, to steal, to rape somebody? {thou shalt not kill, steal, commit adultery}
just some food for thought...
It wasn't actually, From what I recall most of our founding father's were extreme radicals, and deists not christians.

[aussielax]

maybe because of this fun little quote....

"And yes with no matter what most countries do they will have enemies. But i'm sure a counrty like say Danmark,Ireland,switzerland,Canada i'm sure there are people who dislike these countries but nowone has tried to attack them you dont see people burning danish flags in there street and chanting death to danmark. I guess its to late for the US to try and make peace with there enemy but perhaps if they changed the way they delt with things they wouldnt make any more enemies."

I don't know how this thread slipped by me, but going back to the original post, that link uses an interesting tactic to define the bush administration as facist....it stretches the truth a lot and takes things out of proportion. If you buy any MMoore movie, you can buy that load of extreme partisan bs. How many of those would've applied to the Clinton administration? I get 1 ,3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13, and that's without the streeeeetch that is going on there....

Liberals are the minority? I thought it was darn near 50-50....oops...


When i posted that people wern't burning Danish flags in the streets. And even now that people are they are burning it because they oppose a Danish newspaper not the Danish government.

And 50/50 i doubt it. But then again what you would call a liberal and what i call a liberal are totaly different things.

[TheKOB]

When i posted that people wern't burning Danish flags in the streets. And even now that people are they are burning it because they oppose a Danish newspaper not the Danish government.

But they are now aren't they? To me, that weakens your argument. Also, they're threatening the entire European Union. Is that also because of something printed in a dane newspaper?

And 50/50 i doubt it. But then again what you would call a liberal and what i call a liberal are totaly different things.


Nor sure what you consider a liberal. Since you're very liberal, I'd assume it's way the frick out there to the left. I was referring though, to election results.

[aussielax]

But they are now aren't they? To me, that weakens your argument. Also, they're threatening the entire European Union. Is that also because of something printed in a dane newspaper?

The reason they are targeting the EU on the whole now is because other newspapers is different EU counrties have re-printed the cartoon's as a show of support for the Danish newspaper that originaly printed it. And which one of my argument's does this weaken? Is it my international terrorism would not be as much of threat if the US conducted themselfs the same way most european countries do one?


Nor sure what you consider a liberal. Since you're very liberal, I'd assume it's way the frick out there to the left. I was referring though, to election results.

Yes i think what i call liberals are greatley out numbered in the US(and in most of the world) at the moment and they def do not make up %50 of people.

[TheKOB]

The reason they are targeting the EU on the whole now is because other newspapers is different EU counrties have re-printed the cartoon's as a show of support for the Danish newspaper that originaly printed it. And which one of my argument's does this weaken? Is it my international terrorism would not be as much of threat if the US conducted themselfs the same way most european countries do one?



Yes i think what i call liberals are greatley out numbered in the US(and in most of the world) at the moment and they def do not make up %50 of people.

What I'm saying is, who's crazy, the extremist muslims, or the rest of the world. eventually people will stop having to make excuses for them, and they'll have to realize that they can't control anything in the international arena with threats?

What's your idea of a liberal?

[JoshM]

so you are saying that somehow, i guess we get assigned a chinese person who gets brought here, and their sole job is to listen in on each americans phonecalls. Somewhere under the foothills of the blueridge mountains in Virginia, is a secret under ground bunker with 3 million chinese people, one for each of us.

Put the Kool-Aid jug down
Uhh...what the hell are you talking about?

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

actually aussie... as far as america goes, we are a bit more liberal than conservative as of the 2004 elections... in the elections, it went 50/50 only because liberals are historically known to be much less likely to vote than conservatives. and, another point i'd like to make... we may have some international misunderstanding here, as i believe a liberal in america is much different than a liberal in australia.

[PhilWings24]

intersting concept, horrible article. if i were to start pointing out flaws in that thing i'd never finish.

i've wondered wether america was starting to become a fascist nation myself, and i don't think anyone could have built a much worse case for it being a fascist nation than that guy did.

[aussielax]

actually aussie... as far as america goes, we are a bit more liberal than conservative as of the 2004 elections... in the elections, it went 50/50 only because liberals are historically known to be much less likely to vote than conservatives. and, another point i'd like to make... we may have some international misunderstanding here, as i believe a liberal in america is much different than a liberal in australia.

Yes well the liberal party in Australia is as conservative as the Republicans in the US. So in Australia i am not a liberal because i dispise the australian liberal party but because of my left wing way of thinking i would be called a liberal in the US.