"Simultaneous" Fouls--would like an opinion

[Matt Saracen]

As a coach, I try hard to understand all the nuances of the rules, but something happened last night that had me a bit confused. I spent a little time in the rule book this morning, but I still can't find this situation addressed.

Team A called for a 3 min non-releasable USC for a cross check. The cross-checkee was injured, so time was called. During the dead ball period while the injured player was being attened to, a one minute non-releasable USC was called against Team B for language.

How would possession be determined?

[laxref59]

My understanding is Team B gets the ball because it is serving less penalty time than Team A.

[lehighvalleylax]

A gets the ball because sequence can be determined, hence the fouls are not simultaneous. If the UC had been called was from an action that happened before the whistle stopping play following the cross check, it would have been simultaneous and then penalty time would be used to determine possesion.

[LaxRef]

A gets the ball because sequence can be determined, hence the fouls are not simultaneous. If the UC had been called was from an action that happened before the whistle stopping play following the cross check, it would have been simultaneous and then penalty time would be used to determine possesion.

Actually, it's more complicated than that: the key is that one foul is live-ball and one is dead-ball. Because of that, sequence matters and we award the ball to Team A because of B's dead-ball foul. In the OP's situation, we do not have simultaneous fouls (however, if the 3:00 cross check had been releasable, rule 7-2 would have kicked in to make the common penalty time nonreleasable).

But if we had had a cross-check by A during a live ball, then a USC by B also during the live ball, we'd be in a simultaneous foul situation, with the ball being awarded to the team with less penalty time (or, if penalty time were equal, with the ball being awarded to Team A since Team A was entitled to possession based on the flag down). Common penalty time would still be NR.

This is a confusing topic, and I'm working on writing an article for Stripes about it. I really need to get the next issue out, but assigning and teaching training classes is kicking my butt.

[flagman]

This is a confusing topic, and I'm working on writing an article for Stripes about it.

I'll look forward to that article, because this is confusing. I read the rule book on it and I read it again and it's still confusing.

Here's a situation from a game last night. Team B player cross checks Team A player, flag down, subsequent whistle and Team A player who was hit then throws the "F-bomb" to Team B player (who provided the cross check). I assessed a 1-min USC on Team A player and I locked them in for the common one minute and awarded the ball to team B based on sequence. I considered them simultaneous with the recollection of EME's advice from a previous situation that..."from the time the flag is dropped until the time the whistle is blown to resume play, they are considered simultaneous" (That's paraphrasing, not a direct quote).

Was this situation adjudicated correctly?

[LaxRef]

I'll look forward to that article, because this is confusing. I read the rule book on it and I read it again and it's still confusing.

Here's a situation from a game last night. Team B player cross checks Team A player, flag down, subsequent whistle and Team A player who was hit then throws the "F-bomb" to Team B player (who provided the cross check). I assessed a 1-min USC on Team A player and I locked them in for the common one minute and awarded the ball to team B based on sequence. I considered them simultaneous with the recollection of EME's advice from a previous situation that..."from the time the flag is dropped until the time the whistle is blown to resume play, they are considered simultaneous" (That's paraphrasing, not a direct quote).

Was this situation adjudicated correctly?

Nope. It should have been Team B's ball since team A had the last foul and they were not simultaneous. This "from the time the flag is dropped until the time the whistle is blown to resume play, they are considered simultaneous" is a myth confusing Rules 7-2 and 7-6.

What is accurate to say is "from the time the flag is dropped until the time the whistle is blown to resume play, the longest common penalty time on opposing players is NR."

[spenny]

Actually, it's more complicated than that: the key is that one foul is live-ball and one is dead-ball. Because of that, sequence matters and we award the ball to Team A because of B's dead-ball foul. In the OP's situation, we do not have simultaneous fouls (however, if the 3:00 cross check had been releasable, rule 7-2 would have kicked in to make the common penalty time nonreleasable).

But if we had had a cross-check by A during a live ball, then a USC by B also during the live ball, we'd be in a simultaneous foul situation, with the ball being awarded to the team with less penalty time (or, if penalty time were equal, with the ball being awarded to Team A since Team A was entitled to possession based on the flag down). Common penalty time would still be NR.

This is a confusing topic, and I'm working on writing an article for Stripes about it. I really need to get the next issue out, but assigning and teaching training classes is kicking my butt.

woo hoo! we had a similar situation in a college game i was watching last weekend. the parents were pissed off claiming it was a bad call, but i somehow came up with the live ball-dead ball difference. they bought it, but still werent happy.
s-m-r-t!
i'm s-m-r-t!

[eme]

My comment above was to mean who is locked in...LaxRef said it better than I.

[flagman]

What is accurate to say is "from the time the flag is dropped until the time the whistle is blown to resume play, the longest common penalty time on opposing players is NR."


Ok we had the common penalty time as NR, but why A's ball when they committed the last infraction, dead ball?

[LaxRef]

Ok we had the common penalty time as NR, but why A's ball when they committed the last infraction, dead ball?

My bad: you and Matt Saracen seem to describe the same situation, but you used different letters. In your version, Team A has the dead-ball USC so Team B gets the ball.

As a reminder, we generally use Team A as the offense (or riding team during a clear) and Team B as the defense (or clearing team during a clear). Deviation from this causes great confusion.

[Matt Saracen]

Thanks for all the input. I apologize for mixing up and the A&B vernacular--I'll try harder next post.

In my example, I was under the impression that Team A would get possession because, as LaxRef pointed out, one was a live ball penalty and the other was a dead ball and it was obvious sequence could be determined. Team B was awarded the ball and the explanation I was given (as Team A's coach) was that, since no game clock time had run between the penalties, they were being treated as simultaneous fouls. I disagreed and that eventually drove me to cyperspace to get an opinion.

Thanks again.

[LaxRef]

Thanks for all the input. I apologize for mixing up and the A&B vernacular--I'll try harder next post.

In my example, I was under the impression that Team A would get possession because, as LaxRef pointed out, one was a live ball penalty and the other was a dead ball and it was obvious sequence could be determined. Team B was awarded the ball and the explanation I was given (as Team A's coach) was that, since no game clock time had run between the penalties, they were being treated as simultaneous fouls. I disagreed and that eventually drove me to cyperspace to get an opinion.

Thanks again.

I'm not surprised by the confusion. Rule 7-6 seems to corner that market in that respect.