Appropriate time for stick check NFHS Rules

[Chesapeake Ref]

Situation: Referee sees what he believes to be an illegal stick and makes a mental note to check that specific stick between quarters. That player then scores a goal before period end.

What is the proper procedure for the official both mechanically and ethically?

Please comment and i will tell the "rest of the story" after your comments.

[LaxRef]

Situation: Referee sees what he believes to be an illegal stick and makes a mental note to check that specific stick between quarters. That player then scores a goal before period end.

What is the proper procedure for the official both mechanically and ethically?

Please comment and i will tell the "rest of the story" after your comments.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the "check at random times" procedure over the "between quarters" procedure.

Under the "between quarters" procedure, if I saw A1's stick during play and thought it was clearly illegal, I'd either check it at the next dead ball--along with a player from the opposing team--or wait until the end of the period. If you do it after a goal when that is not the norm, it looks like you're "out to get Team A"/"playing gotcha."

Under the "check after goals/etc." procedure, you're in less dangerous territory if you decide to check his stick when that's not on your "schedule" for checks. So, here you might be playing "gotcha," but no one would be able to tell.

[Shorelax]

CR - I would say innocent until proven guilty..through proper administration of the rules and mechanics.

Our organization suggests grabbing the stick of a scoring player between the 1st and 3rd quarters for a NFHS game. If you think the player has an illegal stick and they have scored in the game..grab their stick as the mechanics dictate.

IMO - acting as a gunslinger and checking sticks nilly willy (exageration to make my point) lessens the credibility the organization. We all need to be reading from the same prayer book.

[Chesapeake Ref]

Now for the rest of the story. The stick was illegal, both the player and his coach knew it and did not question it. The goal came off, the stick came out and no issues or problems. When the other team scored I checked the scorer's cross, it was legal game went on. Sticks were not checked between 1st and 2nd qtrs, however we did check between 3rd and 4th.

My thinking at the time, and actually now, is that there is no specific mechanic for dealing with an obviously illegal stick unless a coach asks for it, or between periods. After a goal is dead ball time and a stick check is reasonable if you observe an illegal stick, however I do agree that we need to read from the same prayer book. Which then leads me to my next question. If as an official you observe an illegal stick, and you see a player/team gaining an advantage from that illegal stick what is the proper way to handle this? Do you quietly slip over to the offended coach and suggest that he ask for a stick check on #___? What to you advise?

[Chesapeake Ref]

Shorelax checking sticks "willy nilly" is one thing, however an obviously illegal stick I think is another. Are we to overlook "cheating" in order to not look like "gunslinger" ref? Or are we to provide the balance needed for a fair contest in regards to enforcing the rules and let the coaches decide to have a stick checked because they see a stick that looks a little fishy? What is the role of the referee in making sure the contest is being fairly contested?

[brainddeadjock]

Shorelax checking sticks "willy nilly" is one thing, however an obviously illegal stick I think is another. Are we to overlook "cheating" in order to not look like "gunslinger" ref? Or are we to provide the balance needed for a fair contest in regards to enforcing the rules and let the coaches decide to have a stick checked because they see a stick that looks a little fishy? What is the role of the referee in making sure the contest is being fairly contested?

I think both of you are right! Chesapeake Ref is correct that we as refs are the prevent cheating and make sure it a fair game, but Shorelax has a point that the Coaches will flip out. You can make all the logical arguments in to world to a Ticked-off Coach, like, you certified the equipment or your player was cheating, honoring the game, but it does leave you, as the official open to criticism as "being unfair" or "picking on a team".

Think about this, when was the last time you had a reasonable discussion with an angry Coach, especially when you start taking away goals.

I personally wish the NFHS would adopt NCAA rules on stick checks. It would make being aggressive in finding illegal sticks more palatable to the coaches.

[CardinalPuff]

Do you quietly slip over to the offended coach and suggest that he ask for a stick check on #___?
this is something i would not do....but i have no problem checking sticks at randon times....lately i've shocked a defenseman or two by taking their crosse between periods...good fun.

let me ask this: you are the face off official and you notice that face off middie's crosse is obviously pinched (a la box) would you check the stick right there? before the game officially starts?

[cali feeder]

this is something i would not do....but i have no problem checking sticks at randon times....lately i've shocked a defenseman or two by taking their crosse between periods...good fun.

let me ask this: you are the face off official and you notice that face off middie's crosse is obviously pinched (a la box) would you check the stick right there? before the game officially starts?Yeah, and take the other face-off guys stick too and check his, so doesn't look unfair.

[conorgillhero12]

do you coach in NC another ref did that and i was scared because i knew my stick was illegle because it got warped on my previous game faceoff but they dident catch it (later it broke at the throat and flew through the air on the next faceoff anyway)

[3rdPersonPlural]

I scanned the NFHS rule book and was unable to find instructions on the proper mechanic for stick checks.

Am I daft, or is this in one of the mechanics distributions?

FWIW, I've always sauntered along under the impression that I could check any stick any time any where for any reason without violating any rule. I rarely eyeball sticks on the field with much attention as I'm kinda watching other stuff, but if one caught my attention I'd put it under the tape at the next dead ball.

Should the coach dare to get indignant, I'd point out that the stick looked illegal and I was moved by the spirit to examine it. If he accused bias, I'd reply the he should feel lucky that he has an official who cares enough about fair equipment to even notice that sort of thing.

[LaxRef]

I scanned the NFHS rule book and was unable to find instructions on the proper mechanic for stick checks.

Am I daft, or is this in one of the mechanics distributions?

The NFHS doesn't address mechanics. The only thing is that we must check one player from each team at least once per half. The check between quarters thing was never a rule and, I believe, was made up by officials, not the rules committees.

[wood ref]

Yeah, and take the other face-off guys stick too and check his, so doesn't look unfair.

Honestly, if I suspect a player of using an illegal stick before a game, I would not try to ding him, i would tell him he should play with a new stick and give him an opportunity to change first. This should always be the norm, if you can prevent a player from using illegal equipment, you should do it so you don't have to penalize a player. My philosophy is that we should be as transparent as possible. This is supported by Rule 2-7 Article 6 which states: "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found,correction shall be made before participation"

[wood ref]

You should never suggest a stick check to a coach, that is coaching, you are officiating.

[LaxRef]

Honestly, if I suspect a player of using an illegal stick before a game, I would not try to ding him, i would tell him he should play with a new stick and give him an opportunity to change first. This should always be the norm, if you can prevent a player from using illegal equipment, you should do it so you don't have to penalize a player. My philosophy is that we should be as transparent as possible. This is supported by Rule 2-7 Article 6 which states: "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found,correction shall be made before participation"

Are you using ILF rules? Because that clause doesn't exist in NCAA or NFHS.

I agree that if you see it before the game you should try to correct it with no penalty: don't store that knowledge for later and then spring it on him to get an illegal stick penalty. That's playing "gotcha."

But if you notice during the game, he's already cheating. I don't think you can rightly warn at that point.

[wood ref]

The check procedure is detailed in the MDOC Officials Traing Manual, but the details of how the ball is supposed to be checked are outlined in a graphic in Rule 1-7 and a bit in detail in 1-8

[wood ref]

It is in the NFHS Rulebook 2-6 Article 6 "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found,correction shall be made before participation", sorry, I put the wrong Rule previously.

[LaxRef]

It is in the NFHS Rulebook 2-6 Article 6 "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found,correction shall be made before participation", sorry, I put the wrong Rule previously.

Ah, I see. But that doesn't say not to penalize it, just to make sure it's legal before it gets used again. And I'm definitely with you on the idea of preventative officiating; I just don't think we can overlook obviously illegal equipment once the game starts. Before the game, absolutely try to prevent the illegal equipment to be used.

[Shorelax]

Shorelax checking sticks "willy nilly" is one thing, however an obviously illegal stick I think is another. Are we to overlook "cheating" in order to not look like "gunslinger" ref? Or are we to provide the balance needed for a fair contest in regards to enforcing the rules and let the coaches decide to have a stick checked because they see a stick that looks a little fishy? What is the role of the referee in making sure the contest is being fairly contested?

CR - I don't disagree with your point and exaggerated a bit to try and make mine. My point - the NFHS rules don’t really tell us when to perform these stick checks...are they random, are they at the end of the 1st and 3rd? It seems these mechanics are typically worked out through local organizations. It will likely be noticed if you are the only one in your organization performing stick checks in this fashion.

Personally - I would prefer to see the NCAA stick check rules/mechanics adopted by the NFHS. My experience - it really doesn’t slow the game down and it works!! I have seen a decrease in the number of illegal sticks.

[LaxRef]

Personally - I would prefer to see the NCAA stick check rules/mechanics adopted by the NFHS. My experience - it really doesn’t slow the game down and it works!! I have seen a decrease in the number of illegal sticks.

I've said this again and again: the NFHS does not adopt any lacrosse mechanics!

The NFHS and NCAA rules on stick checks are identical:

Each half, officials shall conduct at least one inspection of a player’s crosse per team.

(emphasis mine)

That means by rule we can do 40 per half if we want (not that that would be wise). The NCAA mechanic is entirely consistent with NFHS rules, and I believe it should be used in NFHS games. We use it locally, and I know other areas do as well.

In fact, the only real problem we have is that years ago some official decided that the end of the first and third period was the best time to do these checks. And maybe that was a good idea then because there weren't as many illegal sticks, but that just turned into a way for the officials to look the other way, since all of the intentional cheaters would get their sticks off the field before the end of the period.

It does take a little bit of practice to check sticks quickly, but within a few games we got to the point where it wasn't slowing down the game and it was getting the illegal sticks off the field. I see no downside and lots of upside (unless you're a coach who likes having his players use illegal gear).

[Shorelax]

I've said this again and again: the NFHS does not adopt any lacrosse mechanics!

The NFHS and NCAA rules on stick checks are identical:



(emphasis mine)

That means by rule we can do 40 per half if we want (not that that would be wise). The NCAA mechanic is entirely consistent with NFHS rules, and I believe it should be used in NFHS games. We use it locally, and I know other areas do as well.



It does take a little bit of practice to check sticks quickly, but within a few games we got to the point where it wasn't slowing down the game and it was getting the illegal sticks off the field. I see no downside and lots of upside (unless you're a coach who likes having his players use illegal gear).


LR - Point taken regarding the mechanics. Can you please flog the expired equine.

What is the genesis of the "6 checks per game" used in NCAA games?

Did this come from the COC?

Should this come from our state governing body for NFHS? I am pro mulitple checks and would like to see this changed.

[LaxRef]

LR - Point taken regarding the mechanics. Can you please flog the expired equine.

I do have to say that it's unfair to accuse me of beating a dead horse when I'm responding to a post where you say "I would prefer to see the NCAA stick check rules/mechanics adopted by the NFHS." :chuckle:

What is the genesis of the "6 checks per game" used in NCAA games?

Did this come from the COC?

Should this come from our state governing body for NFHS? I am pro mulitple checks and would like to see this changed.

This came from the NCAA rules committee: they asked the COC mechanics committee to implement this change in mechanics.

As a mechanic, it can be adopted by your officials association without any kind of state approval. However, it would be wise to do this in conjunction with the coaches association.

[Shorelax]

I do have to say that it's unfair to accuse me of beating a dead horse when I'm responding to a post where you say "I would prefer to see the NCAA stick check rules/mechanics adopted by the NFHS." :chuckle:



The "dead horse" comment was related to you recanting the tale of 6 stick checks per game.

[3rdPersonPlural]

LR - Can you please flog the expired equine.

.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/beating-a-dead-horse.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1744)

There. That's LR dressed for his day job.

[spenny]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/beating-a-dead-horse.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1744)

There. That's LR dressed for his day job.

why is he lying down?

now i'm NEVER gonna get a call my way!:chuckle:

[pboyd]

History of 6 Stick Checks: I spoke with Richie Meade (USNA and NCAA Rules Committee member) last year and he indicated that he was a major part of the decision to go to 6 stick checks and shared the advice of his father who was a NY policeman who told him that "If you wanted to stop speeders - you have to issue speeding tickets" - anybody keeping stats? Have the number of illegal stick violations gone done in NCAA?
Our local associations all agreed that common/standard guidance is to conduct equipment checks at end of 1st and 3rd period for NFHS games. We also agreed not to measure the back/bottom of the head for 6-1/2 inches. Personally, I would not check a stick at any other time unless the head coach requested it nor would I measure the back/bottom of the head for compliance. Having said that, the NFHS Rules would clearly support deviating from this guidance but I would argue that "consistency" does more for our credibility and I suggest letting the opposing head coach call for the non-routine equipment check. Besides once we cross the line - where does it stop? - 6 checks? - I want to get home for American Idol.

[LaxRef]

History of 6 Stick Checks: I spoke with Richie Meade (USNA and NCAA Rules Committee member) last year and he indicated that he was a major part of the decision to go to 6 stick checks and shared the advice of his father who was a NY policeman who told him that "If you wanted to stop speeders - you have to issue speeding tickets" - anybody keeping stats? Have the number of illegal stick violations gone done in NCAA?
Our local associations all agreed that common/standard guidance is to conduct equipment checks at end of 1st and 3rd period for NFHS games. We also agreed not to measure the back/bottom of the head for 6-1/2 inches. Personally, I would not check a stick at any other time unless the head coach requested it nor would I measure the back/bottom of the head for compliance. Having said that, the NFHS Rules would clearly support deviating from this guidance but I would argue that "consistency" does more for our credibility and I suggest letting the opposing head coach call for the non-routine equipment check. Besides once we cross the line - where does it stop? - 6 checks? - I want to get home for American Idol.

Anecdotally, illegal sticks seem to be way down since we started doing multiple checks.My first game with 6 checks had 12 minutes of stick penalties, and it trailed off quickly to generally not more than 3 minutes per game.

For HS, we do 3 or four per game: after a goal for each team in the first half, and then 1 or 2 in the second half.

If done correctly, you should still be able to get home in time for American Idol (I have TiVo and never worry about such things). The 3-4 checks add maybe a minute to the game if done after goals ad during timeouts.