Simultaneous Fouls

[Section III Lax]

I'm a fairly new Official and i keep getting confussed with these Simultaneous Fouls and I get different interpitations from each seasoned official that i work with. What is the time frame that the fouls need to be in to be concidered Simultaneous.
Also is ther a less confussing way of assessing penalty time the NFHS book seems to muddy it up .

[Snake~eyes]

I'll let CaochRob come post his paper on Simultaneous fouls but I will address penalty enforcement.

What specifically is confusing?
Personal fouls 1-3minutes
Technical Fouls - 30 seconds or posession

[CoachRob]

Go to

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=10684&highlight=simultaneous+foul

for a discussion replete with rule references. Any further questions, PM me and I'd be happy to give you MY take of it by phone (for whatever that's worth?). This is tough to discuss on the written page.

[CoachRob]

I'll let CoachRob post his paper on Simultaneous fouls but I will address penalty enforcement.

What specifically is confusing?
Personal fouls 1-3minutes
Technical Fouls - 30 seconds or posession

I didn't know that I even HAD a paper Snake. I have written many lengthy OPINIONS on the worst written rule in the history of field sports, however.
:banghead:

[Section III Lax]

So as i read it, Any foul the occur in between whistle are simultaneous. So you lock the time together and any overlapping time is non-releaseable? Know with a deadball Foul if you cant tell sequence they would be simultaneous.

What if Player A slashes Player B (flag down) as Player A1 passes to A2 A2 drops ball whistle blows play dead. Now during this Player B2 in motion body checks A2 from the back . Are these simultaneous.

Can i have an example of simultaneous dead ball fouls

[CoachRob]

So as i read it, Any foul the occurs in between whistle are simultaneous. So you lock the time together and any overlapping time is non-releaseable? Now with a deadball foul if you cant tell sequence they would be simultaneous.

What if Player A slashes Player B (flag down) as Player A1 passes to A2. A2 drops ball whistle blows play dead. Now during this Player B2 in motion body checks A2 from the back . Are these simultaneous.

Can i have an example of simultaneous dead ball fouls

Correct to your first paragraph.

Paragraph 2: What if Player A slashes Player B (flag down) as Player A1 passes to A2. A2 drops the ball, whistle blows play dead. Now during this Player B2 in motion body checks A2 from the back. Are these simultaneous fouls?

When player A3 slashes player B3 as A1 passes to A2, the flag is thrown and the whistle blows immediately because team A has possession. Any time a team with possession commits a foul, the whistle blows to stop play. The pass is not a pass as play is over.

I think what you would like to know is the following scenario:

What if Player A3 slashes Player B3 (flag down) as Player B3 passes to B2? B2 drops the ball, and the whistle blows the play dead. Now during this DEAD BALL time, Player B2 body checks A2 from the back. Are these simultaneous fouls?

In this case, when player A3 slashes player B3 as B3 passes to B2, the flag is thrown and the ref holds the whistle. When B2 drops the ball (OOPS), that ends the FD/SW situation. The ref now signals for A3 to go to the penalty box and tells team B to get ready to start play where the ball hit the ground (or outside the goal area box if it landed inside it).

Now, during the DEAD ball time, B2 is upset with A2 and illegally body checks A2 in the back. Since this occurred AFTER the live ball foul ended play, this is NOT a simultaneous foul with the slash. Prior to this dead ball foul, team B was to get the ball as I described above. Now, since B2 has just fouled team A, team B LOSES possession to team A while player B2 gets sent to the box to sit with A3. But they were NOT simultaneous fouls. They just happen to be sitting in the box together.

You want an example of simultaneous dead ball fouls? A5 and B5 punch each other at the SAME exact time. On the other hand, if A5 punches B5, and then B5 punches A5 in retaliation, and you can clearly determine who punched whom first, then they are NO LONGER simultaneous, as order was CLEARLY established by your very own eyes. Remember, order matters during dead ball fouls. Simple?

[LaxRef]

Now, during the DEAD ball time, B2 is upset with A2 and illegally body checks A2 in the back. Since this occurred AFTER the live ball foul ended play, this is NOT a simultaneous foul with the slash. Prior to this dead ball foul, team B was to get the ball as I described above. Now, since B2 has just fouled team A, team B LOSES possession to team A while player B2 gets sent to the box to sit with A3. But they were NOT simultaneous fouls. They just happen to be sitting in the box together.

Just to be clear, the common penalty time will still be nonreleasable even though the fouls are not simultaneous. This is one of the things that makes all of this confusing.

[CoachRob]

Excellent point LaxRef. We should be a tag team!!

NFHS 7-4.4: For the purpose of determining when a player or players may be released from a penalty, for all time-serving penalties called on players of opposing teams from the time the flag is dropped or the whistle sounds stopping play (whichever occurs first), until the sounding of the whistle resuming play, the lesser amount of penalty time shall be treated as non-releasable.

So, in this case, the flag was dropped (occurring before the whistle) when the slash occurred, and the illegal check occurred before play resumed. These two penalties, while NOT simultaneous, ARE non-releasable for the lesser time of the two. Since they are both personal fouls and will likely be 1-minute each (unless the ref felt one or both was/were vicious and penalized either or both 2 or 3 minutes) they are both “locked in” for one full minute. A goal will not end either penalty during this time.

[CoachRob]

Not to complicate the issue, but in reality, this is not true. The flag was thrown AFTER the slash. It really should be clearer by stating:

...for all time-serving penalties called on players of opposing teams from the time the PENALTY THAT CAUSED THE FIRST flag to be dropped or the whistle sounds...

In reality, they might be referring to any penalty AFTER the first one, because the first one must by definition occur prior to the flag dropping.

1. Penalty occurs.
2. Ref sees the penalty and decides it is indeed a penalty.
3. Ref reaches into his pocket for his yellow flag.
4. Ref tosses said flag.
5. Ref blows whistle to stop play for any of the reasons that terminate the flag down situation.
6. Ref decides who will serve any penalty time, if any, and dispatches them to the penalty area.
7. Ref awards ball to one of the teams after the 20 second period allowable.
8. Ref blows his whistle to restart play (assuming the period or game has not ended).

From #4 to #8 is really covered by the LETTER of this rule. However, by convention, we consider #1-4 to occur simultaneously. I'm surprised LaxRef and Snake~eyes haven't harped on this point yet.
:bawling:

[LaxRef]

Not to complicate the issue, but in reality, this is not true. The flag was thrown AFTER the slash. It really should be clearer by stating:

...for all time-serving penalties called on players of opposing teams from the time the PENALTY THAT CAUSED THE FIRST flag to be dropped or the whistle sounds...

In reality, they might be referring to any penalty AFTER the first one, because the first one must by definition occur prior to the flag dropping.

There are bigger fish to fry, I think. It's clear to me that--while the wording could be improved--they mean from the dropping of the first flag or the sounding of the whistle. Since they're talking about whichever comes FIRST, a flag thrown during a dead ball doesn't figure into this at all. Of course, you can have multiple flags during the live ball, but I still think this is clearer than other things. For example, I'd rather focus my efforts on getting the simultaneous foul stuff out of the rulebook.

There's also the issue that the flag is dropped after the foul occurs, but this is a common theme in officiating: even though it takes a bit of time to throw a flag or blow the whistle, you act as if they occurred at the exact moment of the event that precipitated the flag or whistle.

[eme]

The word "simultaneous" is confusing because for 99% of the time fouls on the field do not happen simultaneously...the only thing simultaneous in this thing is that players from both teams sit in the penalty box simultaneously for at least 30 seconds. But I can't come up with a better word for "Time-Serving Fouls by Both Teams."

Coach Rob: I wouldn't bother with your 20-sec. beeper to get play re-started. After you have sorted out how many players for how long in the box and how much is NR and then who gets the ball and then where...and then you have to explain it to the coaches and benches and the freshman kid running the clock and the table who has never seen a lacrosse game before...and then you remember you didn't give the proper signals...well..you get the point.

[LaxRef]

The word "simultaneous" is confusing because for 99% of the time fouls on the field do not happen simultaneously...the only thing simultaneous in this thing is that players from both teams sit in the penalty box simultaneously for at least 30 seconds. But I can't come up with a better word for "Time-Serving Fouls by Both Teams."

"Coincidental" might be a good term for it. They "coincide" in that they happen around the same time, but not exactly the same time (as "simultaneous" implies erroneously), and the penalties coincide as well.

But I think I like the idea of getting rid of the whole "simultaneous fouls" thing and keeping the non-releaseable aspect of it.

Coach Rob: I wouldn't bother with your 20-sec. beeper to get play re-started. After you have sorted out how many players for how long in the box and how much is NR and then who gets the ball and then where...and then you have to explain it to the coaches and benches and the freshman kid running the clock and the table who has never seen a lacrosse game before...and then you remember you didn't give the proper signals...well..you get the point.

I think you turn on your beeper after everything has been sorted out, the guys are in the box, the timekeeper knows what's going on, everyone is on the same page, and you're ready to get going again. :chuckle:

[eme]

Mutual Malfeasance?

As for beepers...better to think of them as a safety net to get yourself (the ref) out of trouble rather than a device to get yourself into trouble

[CoachRob]

Since I don't ref, I don't need a beeper. Lucky for me, I only coach this stuff.