Flag Down & Offensive Offsides

[farside268]

I had been thinking about an interesting situation and was hoping to get some feedback from the group. Team A is attacking and has the ball in the box. B1 slashes A1 -- flag down. Ball comes out of box. Once the ball is dead, the officials realize that A had been offside during the entire play. How should these penalties be enforced? One train of thought is that the offside should have killed the play, but didn't, so we effectively ignore it. Another thought is that the offside is enforced when it's discovered -- during the dead ball, so B1 will serve one minute and B will be awarded the ball for the dead ball technical foul. Any other ideas out there?

[LaxRef]

I had been thinking about an interesting situation and was hoping to get some feedback from the group. Team A is attacking and has the ball in the box. B1 slashes A1 -- flag down. Ball comes out of box. Once the ball is dead, the officials realize that A had been offside during the entire play. How should these penalties be enforced? One train of thought is that the offside should have killed the play, but didn't, so we effectively ignore it. Another thought is that the offside is enforced when it's discovered -- during the dead ball, so B1 will serve one minute and B will be awarded the ball for the dead ball technical foul. Any other ideas out there?

The dead-ball starts with the action that creates it, not with the whistle stopping play, so here I'd say the play is dead and you have a dead-ball slash, giving possession back to Team A.

You can't have offside as a dead-ball foul, so I don't like the "award possession to team B" angle.

Keep in mind an offside discovered after a goal waves off the goal, so in that case discovering the offside cancels the result of the play. I think that same idea should apply here. But personal fouls are always time-serving, so B1 serves for the slash.

If B1 had had a hold, after the offside, I'd wave it off. If we didn't know which happened first, the offside or the hold, then I suppose we have to treat it as simultaneous technical fouls with Team A in possession and award the ball to Team A.

[Stubs]

So, if A drops the ball, enforce the slash, and give the ball to to A outside the box.

It gets more complicated if on the flag down, A shoots and scores. Now, B gets the one-minute penalty, goal comes off the board, and A gets the ball outside the box. Right?

[LaxRef]

It gets more complicated if on the flag down, A shoots and scores. Now, B gets the one-minute penalty, goal comes off the board, and A gets the ball outside the box. Right?

In NFHS the offside with possession by Team A is a free clear for Team B. Now the slash gives the ball back to Team A (free clear) so Team A starts just past midfield.

[lehighvalleylax]

So, if A drops the ball, enforce the slash, and give the ball to to A outside the box.

It gets more complicated if on the flag down, A shoots and scores. Now, B gets the one-minute penalty, goal comes off the board, and A gets the ball outside the box. Right?

But wouldn't the offsides and the slash be simultaneous fouls and enforced accordingly? Is this similar to the AR with the loose ball push followed by the slash that results in simultaneous fouls?

[LaxRef]

But wouldn't the offsides and the slash be simultaneous fouls and enforced accordingly? Is this similar to the AR with the loose ball push followed by the slash that results in simultaneous fouls?

The difference is that here the foul by the team in possession comes first—creating a dead ball—followed by a dead-ball slash. If we have live-ball, dead-ball, they are not simultaneous.

If we had a slash by Team B, flag down, followed by a foul by Team A, we would have simultaneous fouls because both fouls would be live-ball. Or if we have a loose-ball technical on Team B, play-on, followed by a foul by Team A, we'd have simultaneous fouls again because both would be live-ball fouls. (In each case, if Team A's foul is technical it would merely end the flag-down or play-on, but if it was personal then all players involved would serve penalty time.

The confusing factor here is that it appeared that both fouls were live-ball, but really we had an inadvertent non-whistle, so to speak, and the slash occurred during a dead ball.

[lehighvalleylax]

Way confused here.

Slash was dead ball even though play was going on and no whistle was sounded due to "inadvertant non-whistle"? Offsides is live ball although not discovered until after goal is scored and ball is dead?

I understand the second one but the first one makes no sense.

[Beacher]

To make things simpler, this is Windsor Canada, so let me throw in the the ILF interpretation. Simultaneous fouls any way you cut it (only whistle that counts for ILF rules is the one to restart play). So technical becomes time serving, A2 takes a seat for 30s, B1 for 1:00, team A gets the ball for less penalty time at the spot of the foul.

[pboyd]

We all due respect to my esteemed colleagues - I'm not buying "the slash occured during a dead ball interpretation." Slash would not have occured if the offsides were called when it happened so officials need to correct their error assuming there is no doubt about the offsides. I would propose that the reasonable fix is put everybody back onsides and give the ball to Team B free clear (NFHS) or award ball to Team B (NCAA) and ignore the slash (sounds like heresy with flag on the field for personal foul and no time served?).
I'm also not buying that the "dead ball starts with the action that creates it and not the whistle" - this is a slippery slope that will create mass confusion out there especially when trying to determine/adjudicate what may appear to be simultaneous fouls depending on a virtual rewind/play-back of when/where action occured.
I love this forum and appreciate your opinions. In reality, without the benefit of videotape I think that there would always be some doubt in my mind about the offsides legitimacy and if that were the case - I would probably choose to ignore the offsides - we missed it - did it really happen? - where/when did it occur? - and enforce the slash. I am working on catching offsides and unfortunately still miss this call and find myself in a position where my gut tells me offsides but I can't replay it with 100% confidence to make the late call.

[LaxRef]

We all due respect to my esteemed colleagues - I'm not buying "the slash occured during a dead ball interpretation." Slash would not have occured if the offsides were called when it happened so officials need to correct their error assuming there is no doubt about the offsides.

That certainly doesn't excuse it. Personal fouls are always time-serving. There's only one exception: the game ends with a flag down. That's it. It doesn't matter that it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't let play go on for so long.

With a technical foul, I'd be right with you: if there was no play, we cancel that dead-ball hold.

I would propose that the reasonable fix is put everybody back onsides and give the ball to Team B free clear (NFHS) or award ball to Team B (NCAA) and ignore the slash (sounds like heresy with flag on the field for personal foul and no time served?).

It is heresy!

I'm also not buying that the "dead ball starts with the action that creates it and not the whistle" - this is a slippery slope that will create mass confusion out there especially when trying to determine/adjudicate what may appear to be simultaneous fouls depending on a virtual rewind/play-back of when/where action occured.
I love this forum and appreciate your opinions. In reality, without the benefit of videotape I think that there would always be some doubt in my mind about the offsides legitimacy and if that were the case - I would probably choose to ignore the offsides - we missed it - did it really happen? - where/when did it occur? - and enforce the slash. I am working on catching offsides and unfortunately still miss this call and find myself in a position where my gut tells me offsides but I can't replay it with 100% confidence to make the late call.

In this discussion, I'm assuming that we've figured out for sure that there was offside (we have 7 offensive players, and we know no one crossed midfield since the initial clear); if you're not sure, that probably changes a lot of analysis.

But the action creating the dead ball and not the whistle is a fundamental principle of officiating, and it's even spelled out in the rules at points. Consider:

A1 shoots. The ball enters the goal, but the official thinks it is outside the goal and doesn't blow the whistle. B1 slashes A1. Whistle. The ball is then determined to be inside the goal.

By rule, the ball is dead when the ball enters the goal. Are you going to call the slash live-ball because you didn't blow the whistle? Or ignore it completely because it wouldn't have happened if you'd blown the whistle sooner?! I sure hope not.

The only time the whistle creates a dead ball--as opposed to the action that precipitates the whistle--is for an inadvertent whistle.