Offsides

[PA_Zebra]

In a game yesterday a coach was screaming about the offensive team being offsides. The problem was the offensive team had 6 guys in their offensive side of the field and only 3 of the 4 required in the defensive side. My question is why is it offsides for this situation? When I read the NFHS rule book it clearly states that you must have 4 back, but never addresses having too many in the offensive area. Our chapter teaches a "count forward" method for determining offsides. Can someone help me with this.

[boxlaxman]

Why is it offsides as opposed to Illegal Procedure?? Is that your question??

The 4 back MUST be counted first. If they didn't realize they only had 9 on the field, then that's their fault.

[PA_Zebra]

Yes, that is my question. The offense is not at an advantage. So why does the defensive coach care about what is behind the play

[CardinalPuff]

In a game yesterday a coach was screaming about the offensive team being offsides. The problem was the offensive team had 6 guys in their offensive side of the field and only 3 of the 4 required in the defensive side. My question is why is it offsides for this situation? they aren't offsides, your coach made an error

When I read the NFHS rule book it clearly states that you must have 4 back, but never addresses having too many in the offensive area. Our chapter teaches a "count forward" method for determining offsides. Can someone help me with this.

if 3 back and 6 "forward" it must be assumed they are subbing on the defensive side....if they are talking too long then a delayed sub situation might occur.

[LaxRef]

In a game yesterday a coach was screaming about the offensive team being offsides. The problem was the offensive team had 6 guys in their offensive side of the field and only 3 of the 4 required in the defensive side. My question is why is it offsides for this situation? When I read the NFHS rule book it clearly states that you must have 4 back, but never addresses having too many in the offensive area. Our chapter teaches a "count forward" method for determining offsides. Can someone help me with this.

It's a violation to have too few on either end:

ART. 1 . . . A team is considered offside when it has fewer than three players
in its goal half of the field (between the center line and the end line).

ART. 2 . . . A team is considered offside when it has fewer than four players in
its defensive half of the field (between the center line and end line).

If they're slow to get that last guy on the non-scrimmage side of the field, it is technically offside and it is probably a delayed substitution.

NCAA has a clear note on this topic:

Note 2: If a team momentarily has fewer than the required number of men on
either end of the field while players are exiting and entering the field through
the special-substitution area, this is not considered to be an offside violation.
However, if a team delays its substitution and that causes it to have too few
players on either half of the field, it may be called for offside.

I take this to mean that if you call offside thinking they have too few back and it ends up being because they were late subbing, it's still offside. However, if no advantage is being gained, you don't have to call it. In NCAA in this situation, you have the "silent play-on" in effect for the delayed sub.

[pboyd]

#1. In NFHS Rules (free clear for offsides) it is important that we determine if the violation is offsides or illegal procedure. Delayed sub sounds like illegal procedure (NFHS Rule 6-5-1) but should be called offside per NFHS Rule 4-10-2 especially if the offense hasn't advanced the ball across the centerline on a clear (free clear).
#2. PA Zebra is "Counting forward" and BoxLaxMan indicates "4 back MUST be counted first" - what is the proper procedure? I struggle with this all the time and still have problems catching offsides.
#3. I don't want to miss this opportunity to point out the new 2008 NFHS 4.22 Situation B page 48 - I call this the BoxLaxMan Rule. Last year BLM as head coach challenged (Misapplication) my restart of play when he didn't have enough players on the field following a restart. He lost the challenge when I indicated that the 2007 NFHS Rules only required me to count players at start of game and at each FO and having the correct number of players on the field was his responsibility. In 2008 BLM easily wins this challenge and maybe should have won it last year but at that time I had the stripes on....
BTW: These are great discussions and valuable for professional development - look forward to responses.

[flagman]

I have a new potential offside situation, (I assume it's new since I haven't found it anywhere), which I don't find addressed in the NCAA or NFHS book, although this situation occurred in an NCAA game.

There is to be a face off when Team A is down three men on penalties and Team B is full strength. Team A has one attackman inside their attacking restraining line and the other two attackman are up on the wing lines onside. Team A has the keeper and two defensemen inside their defensive restraining line and the remaining defenseman is up taking the face off. When the official blows the whistle to start the face off and the Team A face off man clamps or attempts to clamp, on the center line, does that not put Team A offside? The penalties are not stacked and the third & last player on the defensive half of the field is touching the center line on the face off. This was easier to explain via a diagram.

[LaxRef]

I have a new potential offside situation, (I assume it's new since I haven't found it anywhere), which I don't find addressed in the NCAA or NFHS book, although this situation occurred in an NCAA game.

There is to be a face off when Team A is down three men on penalties and Team B is full strength. Team A has one attackman inside their attacking restraining line and the other two attackman are up on the wing lines onside. Team A has the keeper and two defensemen inside their defensive restraining line and the remaining defenseman is up taking the face off. When the official blows the whistle to start the face off and the Team A face off man clamps or attempts to clamp, on the center line, does that not put Team A offside? The penalties are not stacked and the third & last player on the derensive half of the field is touching the center line on the face off. This was easier to explain via a diagram.

He can't touch the midline with his body but can touch it with this stick. Gloved hand on the crosse is part of the stick, except when in contact with a line marking, so he can't touch the midline with his hands, but he can clamp the ball with his stick and rake.

[boxlaxman]

#3. I don't want to miss this opportunity to point out the new 2008 NFHS 4.22 Situation B page 48 - I call this the BoxLaxMan Rule. Last year BLM as head coach challenged (Misapplication) my restart of play when he didn't have enough players on the field following a restart. He lost the challenge when I indicated that the 2007 NFHS Rules only required me to count players at start of game and at each FO and having the correct number of players on the field was his responsibility. In 2008 BLM easily wins this challenge and maybe should have won it last year but at that time I had the stripes on....

It's funny you bring this up....I was just ask to interpret this last week (did LT get a hold of you about this??). When I read the rulebooks the other day, NCAA now says "at the beginning of the game and every restart after a goal" and NFHS says "at the beginning of the game ONLY".

This would have applied in our game together the other night when the MDD team couldn't decide which players to put on the field and you hit them with a delay. I guess technically, by rule, we COULD have started the play if they didn't have enough but since the would have had to many, it must be a delay...

[flagman]

He can't touch the midline with his body but can touch it with this stick. Gloved hand on the crosse is part of the stick, except when in contact with a line marking, so he can't touch the midline with his hands, but he can clamp the ball with his stick and rake.

Thanks for the clarification LR, now this will probably never happen again. As luck would have it, this came up in the fourth quarter of an intense intra-conference game.

We caught some luck on this one. I was standing on the single side wingline running this through in my mind while looking at where the various players were for Team A and realizing just as the face off was being conducted that I believe (was not 100% sure) we're going to have an offside when he clamps and touches the midline! As the whistle sounded to start the face off both guys attempted to clamp and the Team A player pivots and steps on the midline, someone from the bench area yells, "he's offsides". Here's where the luck came in, the Team B player got the ball out & rolling behind the Team A player and as I was saying (silently) play-on in my head, the Team B player scooped the ball and entered his attack box, so we had no infraction to stop play. I will grant you that the play-on went a tad longer than normal because I knew Team B player would get the ball with no one around him.:crazy: :whyme:

[Beacher]

Laxref mentions the player should be able to clamp and rake, but he can't even legally do that. Both NCAA rules and ILF rules have identical language describing the face off:
ILF 34.2/NCAA 4-3 The crosses and ball should be within the 4-inch-wide center stripe or as close as the equipment (ball and crosses) will permit. The crosses shall rest on the ground along the center line and be placed parallel to each other, up to but not touching the ball.

This means that even lining up for the faceoff would technically put the shorthanded player offside even before he clamps, since by rule his gloves must be down on the center line, and thus offside. This (rare) situation has its own AR under ILF rules, since otherwise it's impossible for the penalized team to participate in the draw:

AR 65.6 Red have three men in the penalty box. They are thus required to keep three men in their attack half, and four men in their defence half. A centre face-off is required, and the gloves of the player facing-off thus touch the centre-line.
RULING:
Whilst the Red centre is still down in the face-off position, then he will be deemed to be on-side despite his gloves’ touching the centre line. If any other part of his body touches the line, then he is off-side. If his gloves touch the line after he is out of the face-off position, then he is off-side.

[flagman]

Beacher, that is incorrect for NCAA; rule 4-3 (page 34) states in part - "The crosses and gloves shall rest on the ground along the center line, parallel to each other up to, but not touching, the center line." I have not found this situation in any A.R. under NCAA or NFHS.

[Beacher]

My mistake, I was going by an older version of the NCAA rules. That must make face offs a little difficult at times if you have the correct 4" wide center line.

[boxlaxman]

...if you have the correct 4" wide center line.

That's a big IF!!!!:grin:

[LaxRef]

That's a big IF!!!!:grin:

You mean you guys don't start every game with a 3:00 NR penalty because the midline is only 2" wide instead of 4"? :thinking: