warding question - experienced ref needed

[Lax4Midi]

hey guys, ive been wondering about this call and how to combat it effectively, so far this year ive done pretty well, but i just had a game when i shot and scored, and they called a warding penalty on me,

now my question is..... because i had cut to the inside of him, and i had the chicken wing thing going on ( lol ) but he got his stick basically under my armpit and lifted up. Now they called me on a ward because i was lifting up my arm off his stick ( because ya cant really shoot 1 handed lol ) and they said i pushed off his stick.

now from any experienced people here, how is basically the best way to combat this.. . and yea i know some of you might say... " dont let him get his stick under your arm " but its kinda hard sometimes

anything will be helpful =)

[danmlax17]

hey guys, ive been wondering about this call and how to combat it effectively, so far this year ive done pretty well, but i just had a game when i shot and scored, and they called a warding penalty on me,

now my question is..... because i had cut to the inside of him, and i had the chicken wing thing going on ( lol ) but he got his stick basically under my armpit and lifted up. Now they called me on a ward because i was lifting up my arm off his stick ( because ya cant really shoot 1 handed lol ) and they said i pushed off his stick.

now from any experienced people here, how is basically the best way to combat this.. . and yea i know some of you might say... " dont let him get his stick under your arm " but its kinda hard sometimes

anything will be helpful =)

did you just pull your arm out and up or did you push his stick away a little bit? And one thing i have learned, the ref is always right, even when he is wrong

[3rdPersonPlural]

Midi, I know what you're talking about, the pole gets under your armpit and it takes a little arm work to free yourself. I'll believe you when you say that you intended to do no such thing. You were just trying to get your left arm free of the hold so you could regain control of your stick, right?

The official has to figure out if the defender is holding or if the attacker is warding, or both, or neither. As you might imagine, puzzling this one out with two players who both seem to be trying to respect the rules but nonetheless have become entangled is at best a 'judgment call'.

If you got called for warding, the official probably figured that were more than half responsible for getting into that particular dance and that you gained some advantage over the defender's stick when you untangled. Gaining that advantage is what you play the game for, but since it involved your free arm, doing it well enough to get a ward called is sort of the penalty for success here.

Sorry.

[LaxRef]

If you just lift your arm over the stick, no call. But if you push out with it after you bring it back down, it's a ward.

[MElaxRef]

3PP has it right. Both parties have plenty of opportunity to violate a rule when entangled.

Midi, when the defender gets his crosse in between your free arm and your body, then you might be able to draw a holding call by driving against his crosse. Just be careful not to clamp down on his crosse with your free arm.

[laxcomm]

Defensive players lifting the free arm should be holding but all to often the offensive player gets called for warding. The rule states you are called for warding when you "control the opponents crosse-------". Getting your arm lifted so you can 't get your hand back to your crosse is certainly not controlling your opponents stick.

All too often when a players arm is lifted or he lifts his arm to get the free hand back to his crosse coaches, players, and spectators yell "ward" and inexperienced officials react to this and make the warding call when it should either be holding or a "no call".

[pboyd]

To often the long stick goes under the attackers arm and the defender lifts the attacking players arm - most of the time there is no call from the official (albeit several warding calls from sideline) - I think that officials as a group need to start calling a hold when this defensive action impedes the movement of his opponent.

[MElaxRef]

Too often the long stick goes under the attacker's arm and the defender lifts the attacking player's arm - most of the time there is no call from the official (albeit several warding calls from sideline) - I think that officials as a group need to start calling a hold when this defensive action impedes the movement of his opponent.

I totally agree with pboyd.

[1] When a long pole lifts the attacker's arm, then it is stick on body and illegal.

It isn't an easy call, since
[2] if the long pole lifts the attacker's stick, then it is stick on stick and legal;
[3] if the attacker clamps the long pole, then it is warding; or
[4] if both [1] and [3] occur, then you have to make no call or go with simultaneous technicals and give the ball to the attacking team.

[Lax4life528]

I don't think there are enough warding calls. One time, an attackman blatantly grabbed my scoop and pulled on it to put me off balance. NO CALL!

[LaxRef]

I don't think there are enough warding calls. One time, an attackman blatantly grabbed my scoop and pulled on it to put me off balance. NO CALL!

Oh no! Convene the board of governors! An official missed a call! :jawdrop:

Just kidding. Seriously, coaches, players, and officials all make mistakes. The official may just not have seen it, been screened, etc.

BTW, defensemen are always going to complain about warding, even when it isn't there.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Oh no! Convene the board of governors! An official missed a call! :jawdrop:

Just kidding. Seriously, coaches, players, and officials all make mistakes. The official may just not have seen it, been screened, etc.

BTW, defensemen are always going to complain about warding, even when it isn't there.

I notice that you warded on that reply! Former d-men with stripes now are alert to this sort of foolishness!

Drop the ball, LR. You're riding now.

[laxcomm]

As I said in my earlier post, warding is defined by a couple of words, "contols the opponents crosse". When officials looked for that, not just an arm moving there is no problem with making the correct call.

[laxfan25]

In my new officials' training classes, I specifically mention Midi's case - that if the defender gets his stick under the arm and the attacker lifts his arm away - it is NOT a ward - despite the cacaphony of "warding!" calls it elicits from the sidelines and stands. Some people are just ignorant.
At the time this interaction is occurring, you need to make sure that the defender doesn't lift and pull back on the arm (holding) and that the attackman doesn't clamp down on the defender's stick (holding).

[Rabid Squirrel]

Here are two situations and rulings straight out of the NFHS Rules Book that should clarify the discussion:

6.11 SITUATION A: B1 swings at A1’s crosse. A1 pulls his crosse back with one hand and with the other arm absorbs blow by B1. A1 continues around B1, holding off B1’s crosse with his protecting arm. RULING: Technical foul against A1. A1 may not use his arm to hold, push or control the crosse or body of the player applying the check.

6.11 SITUATION B: A1, advancing toward B1, pulls his crosse back with one hand and protects his crosse with the other arm. A1 contacts B1’s crosse with protecting arm and continues to drive against B1 and his crosse. RULING: Technical foul against A1.

Based on these two situations, I have witnessed numerous violations of this rule (especially Situation A) go unpunished in every game I've watched this spring season.

IMO, this has to be the most under-called violation in HS lacrosse (as the completely unbiased father of a d-pole).

[LaxRef]

IMO, this has to be the most under-called violation in HS lacrosse (as the completely unbiased father of a d-pole).

No, that would be the cross-check hold. Just ask LF25!

[laxfan25]

IMO, this has to be the most under-called violation in HS lacrosse (as the completely unbiased father of a d-pole).

I often chuckle when players/coaches/fans will holler for a "ward" call with the slightest movement of the attacker's arm, whether they contact the defender's stick or not, but they want the ultimate leniency on defenders whacking away with their sticks, or d-man that always throw a poke check right into the attackers chest - "Just to slow him down". After all, the rule on slashes is very clear...


SECTION 6 SLASHING
Slashing includes the following actions:...
ART. 3 . . . Striking an opponent in any part of the face, neck, chest, back, shoulders, groin or on the head with the crosse (including its butt end) except when done by a player in the act of passing, shooting or attempting to scoop the ball. In all situations, the player's gloved hand shall be considered part of the crosse, except when in contact with a line marking.

I'd be happy to call every movement of the arm as a ward, if you agree that we should call every stick check that violates the above as a slash. I don't think many people would like that - so let us call the game with appropriate judiciousness going both ways.

[spenny]

laxref, can you add an idiots guide to warding in the faq?

[Rabid Squirrel]

I often chuckle when players/coaches/fans will holler for a "ward" call with the slightest movement of the attacker's arm, whether they contact the defender's stick or not, but they want the ultimate leniency on defenders whacking away with their sticks, or d-man that always throw a poke check right into the attackers chest - "Just to slow him down". After all, the rule on slashes is very clear...




I'd be happy to call every movement of the arm as a ward, if you agree that we should call every stick check that violates the above as a slash. I don't think many people would like that - so let us call the game with appropriate judiciousness going both ways.

I hope you realize what you quoted of mine was intended as humor.

There is no argument that many slashes are not called. But, to your point, in my experience the slashes-to-wards ratio actually called during any game is probably 10/1. Also, in my anecdotal and unscientific experience, college officials call warding more closely than HS officials.

[laxfan25]

I understand, Squirrley! It's just one of the humorous things I see and hear on the field, the tolerance level for various fouls. Warding is one of the lowest tolerance fouls out there, and everyone thinks they know how to call it.
Another is that whacks to the back, legs, arms, etc. are "just letting them play" - but the slightest touch on the head brings out yelps of "slash!!"
Even though it's been outmoded for decades, I still use the "brush" signal to indicate that yes, I saw the contact, and no, it's not going to draw a flag.

Play on, fellows.

[flagman]

Even though it's been outmoded for decades, I still use the "brush" signal to indicate that yes, I saw the contact, and no, it's not going to draw a flag.

Play on, fellows.


Ok, now that you've dated yourself a bit, what is the "brush" signal you're referring to?

[LaxRef]

Ok, now that you've dated yourself a bit, what is the "brush" signal you're referring to?

He's only dating himself because no one else will! :runaway:

I still use it, and I think it's a good mechanic. I'm not sure why LF25 thinks it's outmoded:

A1 has possession. B1 tries to check his stick and ends up brushing his helmet, but it is not "a definite blow or strike." You yell "brush!" and give the same signal you would for a tipped ball (which, incidentally, is not an official lacrosse signal but is damned useful; I tried to get the NCAA to put it in the book this year but they passed): hold out one hand and use the other hand to clip the fingertips and pass by in kind of a brushing movement.

The only downside it if you signal brush and your opponent throws a flag. Now the coach of the offending team wants to know why you signaled a brush and his guy is sitting for a minute. For this reason, I try to pause to let my partner get his flag out if that's what he's going to do before I signal the brush.

[spenny]

Ok, now that you've dated yourself a bit, what is the "brush" signal you're referring to?

ahh, my favorite word in the english language back when i was in HS and college :runaway:

[stripes182]

A quick guide for new(er) officials that was passed down to me was: the attacker has the right to untangle himself from the defender's stick, but he can't use his arm to move/push/etc the stick or block a check.

As far as screaming for warding calls from the stands goes, my personal favorite is when the attacker changes hands coming around the crease halfway through a roll dodge... Kinda hard to wind up for a shot and push off at the same time, eh?

[BlueJaysLaxFan]

A quick guide for new(er) officials that was passed down to me was: the attacker has the right to untangle himself from the defender's stick, but he can't use his arm to move/push/etc the stick or block a check.

As far as screaming for warding calls from the stands goes, my personal favorite is when the attacker changes hands coming around the crease halfway through a roll dodge... Kinda hard to wind up for a shot and push off at the same time, eh?

This is probably the best summary for how to judge a ward.

As for the brush signal, I never use it because of the confusion stated above by LR, and IMO either you call it or you don't.

[LaxRef]

This is probably the best summary for how to judge a ward.

As for the brush signal, I never use it because of the confusion stated above by LR, and IMO either you call it or you don't.

I think there's a certain aid to game management if you communicate, "Yeah, I saw that, but it's not a slash."

[flagman]

Thanks for the clarification; same signal to signal a tipped ball or deflection in hockey or lax.

As eme points out while narrating in the Third Team video; would the contact have hurt in the absence of equipment?

[CardinalPuff]

As far as screaming for warding calls from the stands goes, my personal favorite is when the attacker changes hands coming around the crease halfway through a roll dodge... Kinda hard to wind up for a shot and push off at the same time, eh?
my favorite is when i hear an attackman from the opposing team call for a ward....

I think there's a certain aid to game management if you communicate, "Yeah, I saw that, but it's not a slash."

awesome, right into the 'toolbox'...thanks.

[laxfan25]

Ok, now that you've dated yourself a bit, what is the "brush" signal you're referring to?
Actually the "brush" signal I learned was to swipe along the side of your head, like your brushing your hair back. LR, I agree it's a good communication tool, that's why I still use it on occasion. In my foggy memory banks I thought that many years ago they recommended not using it - although I'm not sure why. I remember also that at one time we had a call called crosscheck hold, but they had us drop that because they felt it was too confusing - just call "hold". To aid in communication with the players though - I will often call "Hold! - crosscheck hold" so they know whagt I am referring to. As you know, that's one of my favorite non-calls. So far this season it hasn't been as prevalent, and I'm happy about that!

[NewRefInGA]

LaxRef, that exact situation occurred in one of my games recently.

I saw the Defender try to check the Attacker with his stick, and incidentally touched his helmet. It was not a direct hit on the attacker, so I called out "brush" and used the signal I was taught- "wiping the hand on top of the head". However, my partner saw the same thing and threw the flag.

This sort of leads me to another question though. I don't want to take the thread off topic, but if the play is in my zone, should the other official make the call?

I assume that since, as my name suggests, I am a new official, my partner, who was much more experienced than me was woking overtime to ensure that I didn't screw up too badly.

I have heard a lot of discussion about whether an official should make a call not in his zone- some say never, some say getting it right is more important.

I have mixed feelings. It's not gonna hurt my feelings if my partner calls a foul and we get the call right, however, it can also make me look bad for not having called it. (I already do that well enough myself, not sure I need any help).

[LaxRef]

I remember also that at one time we had a call called crosscheck hold, but they had us drop that because they felt it was too confusing - just call "hold". To aid in communication with the players though - I will often call "Hold! - crosscheck hold" so they know whagt I am referring to.

I call "Holding!" (giving holding signal) then "With the sitck!" (while holding my hands apart like in the crosscheck signal but without the "thrust").

It's good to be specific for anything not obvious: for example, if there's an IBC that's a high hit, I'll signal IBC while yelling "High hit!" so they know exactly what I'm calling. Note that this is better than saying "Illegal body check! High hit!" because people already know the signal means IBC.

[Woodenstick]

*****
This sort of leads me to another question though. I don't want to take the thread off topic, but if the play is in my zone, should the other official make the call?

I assume that since, as my name suggests, I am a new official, my partner, who was much more experienced than me was woking overtime to ensure that I didn't screw up too badl

I have heard a lot of discussion about whether an official should make a call not in his zone- some say never, some say getting it right is more important.

I have mixed feelings. It's not gonna hurt my feelings if my partner calls a foul and we get the call right, however, it can also make me look bad for not having called it. (I already do that well enough myself, not sure I need any help).

If the ball is not in your zone, you normally have a responsibility to watch something else (like the crease) so if you are "poaching" this may mean you aren't doing YOUR job. When is it OK? Sometimes it is your job - your partner can't see a push on the other side of the scrum, or your are trail and your job it to watch for a late hit while the lead follows the ball. In these cases you are not poaching but working as a team.

My view with a new official is that if he is struggling, I may have to watch his side of the field also, but I try not to make obvious poaches unless I have to.

[Beacher]

I think it helps to keep an eye on a newer ref, but I try not to poach a call unless it's really necessary. After all, they ARE closer and probably have the better view. I try to be aware of the other half of the field to give constructive feedback at the break or after the game. It's always nice to see a new ref make the correct call in the fourth quarter on something he missed in the first. But making calls for a new ref (unless it's blatant or a real game changer) is a sure way to kill their confidence.

[NewRefInGA]

As I said in my earlier post, it doesn't hurt my feelings if my partner makes what should be my call. The most important thing is that we get the call right, even if it may not look pretty. Especially if it is safety related.

what I should havedone is called out lous enough so he could hear me- and not throw the flag, or delayed my signal for a moment or two to give him time to pull it. (As Lax Ref said earlier).

[3rdPersonPlural]

A junior ref needs to 'tune' his calls to the senior ref. This keeps calls consistent, and this allows the senior guy to re-focus on his half of the game.

Last weel I worked a game with a VERY senior official. He apparently reffed games I played in in the very early '80's, and he's sort of the godfather of lax around here. Nonetheless, he is always waiting at the GLE for fast breaks, plays trail at the restraining line, and has impeccible mechanics. I called the game just like he did, which was sort of like a college game. Flags stayed in the belts unless something very ugly happened.

2 days later I officiated the same visiting (road trip) team with a youth official who officiates everything but has never played nor paid much attention to lacrosse. This guy calls everything he can imagine and is oblivious to game management. He also imagines calls (which he makes as if he was getting bonused per call) that I cannot fathom nor interpret to the table because he doesn't signal with much brio. Counts are sporadic, and he plays trail at the midfield line and lead at the restraining line. To top it all off, he has been officiating a year longer than me, so he insists on all of the 'R' perks, and offers 'constructive criticism' whenever I make a call.

O jeez! Talk about an identity crisis. Nonetheless, I soldiered through, and the better team won.

NewLax, your problems are just starting!



Imagine

[NewRefInGA]

"NewLax, your problems are just starting!"

Thanks for the confidence boost, 3PP.

By the way, what are the "perks" of the R position? I think they left that out of my training manual.

[laxfan25]

By the way, what are the "perks" of the R position? I think they left that out of my training manual.
In 3PP's world, it's first choice of the MILF's on the sidelines. He's always talking up those SoCal moms!

[3rdPersonPlural]

In 3PP's world, it's first choice of the MILF's on the sidelines. He's always talking up those SoCal moms!

"Chatting up", 25. Chatting up.

I should add that my GF knows that I have a TLF habit and prowls this forum. She saw that little quip.

I am now in the doghouse and have much more 'splainin' to do after games. Woe betide me if I want to go to sheetz or some seedy dive with my partner after a game.

[LaxRef]

"Chatting up", 25. Chatting up.

I should add that my GF knows that I have a TLF habit and prowls this forum. She saw that little quip.

I am now in the doghouse and have much more 'splainin' to do after games. Woe betide me if I want to go to sheetz or some seedy dive with my partner after a game.

Better to go to into Sheetz than to be caught between the sheet! :nono:

(But listen, 3PP's GF: he seems to care far too much about rules and doing the right thing to make a stupid choice like that.)

[laxfan25]

"Chatting up", 25. Chatting up.
I understand the difference. I was referring to your previous bragging about the quality of both your girlfriend and the sideline spectators in your area.
Naturally that leads to "chatting up" - as in - "your little Johnnie displays some remarkable skills. It must be genetic! Have you ever been to Sheetz?"

[3rdPersonPlural]

LOL 25!! I'd be willing to wager, though, that the fan base on a sunny day of lacrosse is equally fun to glance at no matter where you're located.