Too Physical?

[26laxman26]

Tonight we had a game and lost 10-2, but personally i think that we did a lot better than the score board shows. The other team did a great job and so did our guys, but thats not what i really wanna say. The refs were callin everything, it was hilarious. There were tons of interferance calls that ive never even seen before and they called anything above the elbow a slash (which i know it really is, but cmon, everything?). It was pretty pathetic. The best part of the night though was when there was about 7 minutes left, one of our d men, went in and just layed people out right and left. Within about two minutes, he had laid 3 guys out. The last one he hit was right after a shot, and he just wrecked the kid, (he was down for a few minutes) but it was completely legal. But what happened next is what was so weird, with about 5 minutes left, they called the game because they said we were being too phsyical!? I have to admit, the hits were pretty big, but they were all legal. And its not like we were just out there to hit, there were just a few big ones. So im wandering have you ever had refs like this and had a game called because of the physical play?

Sorry for writing a book! lol

[navylax161]

no, that ridiculous, never seen it. i thought id seen refs about as dumb and ignorant as they get, but i was wrong. it really pisses me off though when a ref calls any check thats more than a little tap or on a guys stick or hands.

[Lax4life528]

i absolutely LOVE it when we are playing a hit fest. It's like the ball goes down and no one goes for the ball, they are all looking to hit someone.

[lids369]

well in hockey the refs called a game because our teams slapshots were too fast

[itsthatkid]

We had a bench clearing fight in indoor and we finished the game (7 minutes in).

I've seen it happen a few times, but its usually for when its getting extrme. Your reffs just seem to have been too strict IMO.

[26laxman26]

Yeah they were definately way too strict, the other teams coach even apologized to us about them after the game. Hopefully we dont get them again. It was mainly just one ref though, there was a time that one kid on the other team got a penalty, asked the ref what it was, and was then called for unsportsmanlike conduct by that ref for talking back to him, thats just stupid.

[Midman03]

the refs called one of my games last year against my rivals for being to physical. it was hilarious.

[brainddeadjock]

I know about a game that was called last week for being to physical, and I almost called a game last week for all the vicious hits.

Just to let all you guys know, in NFHS, there is essentially a rule that said hitting too hard is illegal. It's called the "Take Out Check", very subjective, but the referees have been strongly encouraged to call it more often. Basically, an unnecessary roughness penalty.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Lacrosse is trying to wrest itself away from football. We are careful to remind folks that football is a collision sport, and lax is a contact sport.

There is a generous conceptual difference between the two. As officials, we need to enforce that so that the game gravitates toward a less aggressive manifestation.

Good lacrosse involves few 'hits'. The ball moves too fast and too intelligently for football hitting to be practical. Crappy lax is slow and players are all about dodging, so the contact is more noticeable, but that doesn't make it right.

[Beacher]

The best part of the night though was when there was about 7 minutes left, one of our d men, went in and just layed people out right and left. Within about two minutes, he had laid 3 guys out. The last one he hit was right after a shot, and he just wrecked the kid, (he was down for a few minutes) but it was completely legal.

I could comment on more, but what you describe as a legal hit there is an illegal bodycheck. An avoidable hit on an opponent after he has passed the ball is explicitly defined as IBC.
And when a player makes it his business to lay takeout checks on as many players as possible within a short time period (especially at the end of a game) it's understandable that a ref would consider ending the game for safety reasons.

[3rdPersonPlural]

T The best part of the night though was when there was about 7 minutes left, one of our d men, went in and just layed people out right and left. Within about two minutes, he had laid 3 guys out. The last one he hit was right after a shot, and he just wrecked the kid, (he was down for a few minutes) but it was completely legal.

26, what you have to realize is that a big part of an official's job is game management.

If I have a game with an aggressive fellow obviously keen on doing damage before the game is over, I'll give him an USC (as soon as his actions justify one) and have a private word with his coach that he has become a bull in my China shop and I'd appreciate it if the bull stayed on the sidelines for the remainder of the game. The coach should comply, because if he doesn't I can find a few dozen reasons to call another USC on a hotted up bull and that means paperwork and explanations and the kid missing the next game.

This isn't because I'm a spoil-sport. I admire lacrosse because it is physical, but I also insist that hits be productive, not gratuitous. I can't think of an official who would disagree with me.

[26laxman26]

Yeah i guess i understand what you're saying. It just seemed that all night long there were some questionable calls, and as i said before, even their coaches and some of their players apologized to us after the game about them. I guess the refs were just trying to make the game safe and fun and im glad they were doing their jobs, i just wish they would have eased up a little, lol.

[laxzeeb]

Yeah i guess i understand what you're saying. It just seemed that all night long there were some questionable calls, and as i said before, even their coaches and some of their players apologized to us after the game about them. I guess the refs were just trying to make the game safe and fun and im glad they were doing their jobs, i just wish they would have eased up a little, lol.

What you talk about isn't good lacrosse. I don't know what the other "questionable" calls were, but between the fact that these takeout checks were going on and the coaches were apologizing suggests a lack of knowledge of the true way the sport is to be played. The objective of a proper check in the box is to disrupt the offensive player so he will get rid of the ball or to dislodge the ball. A good offensive player knows that as soon as a defender plants his feet, which he typically must to deliver an overzealous check, that it is an opportunity to move himself or the ball quickly and he will use the situation to his team's advantage. Defenders who keep their feet moving and deliver the right checks will disrupt the offense, which is what they should be doing. A deliberate late hit after a shot is a penalty. Now is the time to learn that as a proper check is intended to disrupt play, gain advantage, or get your team the ball. Go beyond that and you are subjecting yourself to the official's judgment as to whether to throw the flag.

[spenny]

not to mention, unless you are a certified official, how are you positive that the calls were questionable?
(i wont even get into the question of impartiality in a game where you were a participant)

[laxfan25]

The best part of the night though was when there was about 7 minutes left, one of our d men, went in and just layed people out right and left. Within about two minutes, he had laid 3 guys out. The last one he hit was right after a shot, and he just wrecked the kid, (he was down for a few minutes) but it was completely legal.
Are you kidding me? Who is the pathetic one here? It's obvious you know nothing about the rules of lacrosse, the first priority of reffing (player safety) or the concept of legal bodychecks.
"The best part of the night" (especially since you got shelled 10-2) was that your D-man was laying people out left and right, and injured a player? That's a heck of a lot to be proud of. Let's examine some aspects of the rulebook that would govern these player actions...

Rule 4 - SECTION 16 BODY CHECKING
Body checking of an opponent in possession of the ball or within five yards of a loose ball, from the front or side above the waist and below the neck, is legal.

RULE 5 - SECTION 3 ILLEGAL BODY CHECK
Illegal body checking includes the following actions:
ART. 1 . . . Body checking of an opponent who is not in possession of the ball or within five yards of a loose ball.
ART. 2 . . . Avoidable body check of an opponent after he has passed or shot the ball.

RULE 5 - SECTION 8 UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS
Unnecessary roughness includes the following:
ART. 3 . . . Any avoidable act on the part of a player that is deliberate and
excessively violent, whether it be with the body or crosse. This may include a legal body check.

So there you have it in black and white. One of my pet peeves are late hits. If a defensive player is so out of position that they can't deliver a legal bodycheck on a player with the ball or immediately after he has passed or shot (with the ball within 5 yards) - IT IS UP TO THAT PLAYER TO AVOID OR LET UP ON THE HIT! Note that there is NO 2-step rule in lacrosse. Note that you are not allowed to "finish the hit" if you're coming in late! Note that even if the check is delivered in a legal manner (from the front or side, below the neck/above the waist - on a player in posession of or within 5 yards of a loose ball) if it is excessively violent - the ref can still flag the player for Unecessary Roughness! Our utmost priority is player SAFETY, not letting guys get their jollies with dirty play.
At the end of a blow-out game, rest assured that I am extra vigilant on players such as your D-man who are obviously looking to just "wreck" some players. I may even elect to use my authority to eject him from the game if it will help me get or keep things under control. That is a newer rule, where we can eject a player for any action that we consider unsportsmanlike, and the actions you describe in your post fit the bill perfectly. The game will be better served without goons like that on the field.

You may want to print and distribute this post to your coaches and teammates. It sounds like you can use a little education in the finer points of lacrosse.

[LaxRef]

One of my pet peeves are late hits. If a defensive player is so out of position that they can't deliver a legal bodycheck on a player with the ball or immediately after he has passed or shot (with the ball within 5 yards) - IT IS UP TO THAT PLAYER TO AVOID OR LET UP ON THE HIT! Note that there is NO 2-step rule in lacrosse. Note that you are not allowed to "finish the hit" if you're coming in late!

This drives me nuts, too. How many times do you throw a flag on a late hit when the defensive player isn't pulling up at all--maybe he's even still accelerating--and the ball is 20 yards away, and the coaches and players complain and say what a great, legal hit it was? :bawling:

[laxzeeb]

This drives me nuts, too. How many times do you throw a flag on a late hit when the defensive player isn't pulling up at all--maybe he's even still accelerating--and the ball is 20 yards away, and the coaches and players complain and say what a great, legal hit it was? :bawling:

Not to mention how many times it is the team on the bottom end of the score throwing these kind of checks. Often those games aren't close, which makes the penalty somewhat meaningless. They could care less if they are man down. I suppose if it were deemed flagrant you could go with a USC ejection but that's pretty steep. Not sure what else you can do to add some teeth to this kind of scenario.

[LaxRef]

Not to mention how many times it is the team on the bottom end of the score throwing these kind of checks. Often those games aren't close, which makes the penalty somewhat meaningless. They could care less if they are man down. I suppose if it were deemed flagrant you could go with a USC ejection but that's pretty steep. Not sure what else you can do to add some teeth to this kind of scenario.

For NFHS, you start calling those hits USCs, which makes them NR and which boots the offender for two of them.

[laxzeeb]

For NFHS, you start calling those hits USCs, which makes them NR and which boots the offender for two of them.


Sure, I realize that, or like I said, call it flagrant and you get a USC ejection. My point is where you get that a late hit in an upside down game where perhaps the hit justifies a penalty because it is avoidable and/or rough, but not flagrant, putting the player out doesn't send much of a message. I guess that's what we have coaches for but that is also part of it, will the coach really care given the score. At the lower levels, you hope so and often you see the coaches teaching notwithstanding the score. At the higher levels, where the potential for unsafe acts causing harm is greater, where it really is needed, you wonder. Not much we can do as officials in terms of the rules.

Frankly where we see this quite a bit is with some football players that play lacrosse in the spring and have trouble separating their conduct between sports. Certainly there are consequences for late hits in both sports, but what they regard as clean in football often does not fly in lacrosse in terms of how they check.

[26laxman26]

Are you kidding me? Who is the pathetic one here? It's obvious you know nothing about the rules of lacrosse, the first priority of reffing (player safety) or the concept of legal bodychecks.
"The best part of the night" (especially since you got shelled 10-2) was that your D-man was laying people out left and right, and injured a player? That's a heck of a lot to be proud of. Let's examine some aspects of the rulebook that would govern these player actions...









When i said best part of the night, i was talking in terms of the calls by the refs, sorry if that was confusing. As for the other stuff, i can only tell you what i saw, and what ours (and their) coaches had to say about those refs, im not sayin all refs are like that. i know you guys probly picture our team as some pumped up football team on roids, but thats not true. Sorry if i offended any of you refs but i just had a simple question asking if anyones game has been cancelled because of physical play and then it turned into this...

[3rdPersonPlural]

Chill, 26. Every weekend I hear scuttlebutt from my assigner that games have been cut short or coaches ejected or players suspended by the league, and then guess who gets assigned when two chronic offenders get a date with each other?

You bet! The long suffering Plural, usually running with the assigner hisself or one of our less agreeable college refs as the R.

I am the sidekick of choice when the game is a cross between football and ken-do played with lacrosse equipment and (curiously) by lacrosse rules.

So I see the sorts of games you are referring to in your OP. I suspect that many of the refs who responded to your OP get sent off to the same sort of games, and many of us told you what we wish we could have told the players had we sat down to a nice glass of elderly malt together.

'Those refs' who apparently failed in their attempt to control your game may well have been new refs who, if they had suited up for your team, would have kept the game close. A lot of refs are former players. On the other hand, they may have been guys who officiate other sports and like the challenge of reffing, so they volunteered to join a lax crew. We LOVE those guys. It takes them a few years to get the hang of it, but they sure make the assigner's job easier. Go easy on 'em.

[LaxRef]

It takes them a few years to get the hang of it, but they sure make the assigner's job easier. Go easy on 'em.

And if you don't go easy on them, you'll always have relatively clueless newbies, if you have any officials at all. :nono:

[26laxman26]

Alright, ill try to be more understanding next time :thumbsup: , thanks for the info, and once again, sorry if i offended any of you guys.

[sicknastybeast]

haha my teams defense is about laying kids out...close to you lay em out, take a shot lay em out...LOOK AT YOU LAY EM OUT...i absolutly love it...but our offense is a fast paced motion offense so were not complete goons

[laxzeeb]

I don't think any of us were offended by your comments 26, officials are in this forum to learn and so are some players. Apparently the player posting above has a defense who should learn some lessons as well. Decking players is more than just a penalty and safety issue, it is dumb lacrosse. Sooner or later, on the current team or at the next level, if they are lucky enough to get there, that conduct will cost them games. What is more fun, laying kids out or winning?

[laxfan25]

Not to mention how many times it is the team on the bottom end of the score throwing these kind of checks. Often those games aren't close, which makes the penalty somewhat meaningless. They could care less if they are man down. I suppose if it were deemed flagrant you could go with a USC ejection but that's pretty steep. Not sure what else you can do to add some teeth to this kind of scenario.
LaxRef, I hear that a lot, you penalize someone for an illegal check/late hit and the coach is telling him what a great hit it was.
As for finding another option on the late hitter, you can start to assess two personals on a foul, one for an illegal bodycheck (late hit) and another for UR (if it was excessive) - that way you can get him more quickly to five personals and he fouls out without being ejected from the next game.

[MurphRef_NH]

I guess I would add that what is important for players and fans to realize is that players are not properly equipped to protect themselves from the kind of physical contact you're describing here. It is very important that officials do their due-diligence to ensure that all players are safe.

[sicknastybeast]

I don't think any of us were offended by your comments 26, officials are in this forum to learn and so are some players. Apparently the player posting above has a defense who should learn some lessons as well. Decking players is more than just a penalty and safety issue, it is dumb lacrosse. Sooner or later, on the current team or at the next level, if they are lucky enough to get there, that conduct will cost them games. What is more fun, laying kids out or winning?

so i might have exaggerated but my coach definetly follows if they shoot put them on there back to keep them out of the middle and force em to take outside shots that slow up and are easier to save... i find nothing wrong with that(accurate)description

[LaxRef]

so i might have exaggerated but my coach definetly follows if they shoot put them on there back to keep them out of the middle and force em to take outside shots that slow up and are easier to save... i find nothing wrong with that(accurate)description

If your coach is telling you to intentionally hit people after they've shot the ball and the ball is more than 5 yards away, he has no place in the game of lacrosse.

[laxzeeb]

so i might have exaggerated but my coach definetly follows if they shoot put them on there back to keep them out of the middle and force em to take outside shots that slow up and are easier to save... i find nothing wrong with that(accurate)description

If so your coach is not helping your team or the sport. A proper check in the middle is more effective to prevent inside shots. Late hits commonly also come from defenders that are late and out of position. They screwed up so they take it out on the shooter. A great defender has strong footwork and positioning skills, the goal is to take away the shot, not take out the player. Frustrate the attacker, get the mental edge, it will pay off a lot more than taking a penalty and putting your team man down.