Head Dimensions

[TheKOB]

Alright, so I know the opening of the head at the top should be 6.5". My question is where is that measured. I've always seen it on the inside of the sidewalls. Where do you measure it for a stick like the Gait Icon (pic shown)? My question is mainly concerning the spots at the two corners near the scoop, which have the plastic jutting in so you can attach shooting strings, etc. Should the measurement be on the inside of these plastic stringing holes?

On a sidenote, does it say where the widest point has to be? If not, you could make a stick shaped like a diamond, like the STX Stingray women's stick...

[smittMONEY]

It is the widest point of the head, KOB. So you could pinch everything and flare the throat out 6 inches and they'd measure that. They measure from the INSIDE of the sidewall. I think that there is a little line in the plastic where they measure from.

[TheKOB]

so the plastic pinched in for the shooters doesn't count?

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

nope...look at the blade design.....

however, it is to the refs discretion on if such a pinch does help the player or not...those gait tabs are usually uninfluencial....And you can usually about flare only half an inch both sides making the bottom of the sidewall where the holes are 5 in wide at the most if you want the measured part to be 6.5

pinching the scoop is a disadvantage in field lax anyways, you should just narrow the throat for the ball to stick in there if anything, or to allow no space, but keep the scoop at 6.5.....

[CoachRob]

This is all answered in EXTREME detail in an earlier post with an excellent photo by the poster named "kryptic". Please go there for your answer.

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=11267

The post is entitled "Head Dimensions" and has 36 responses, the last one being 12/2/04.

You might save yourself some time by using the search feature as many of these questions have been answered in countless earlier posts.

It will also expose you to some concepts you hadn't even thought of on the same topic.

[TheKOB]

This is all answered in EXTREME detail in an earlier post with an excellent photo by the poster named "kryptic". Please go there for your answer.

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=11267

The post is entitled "Head Dimensions" and has 36 responses, the last one being 12/2/04.

You might save yourself some time by using the search feature as many of these questions have been answered in countless earlier posts.

It will also expose you to some concepts you hadn't even thought of on the same topic.

I have already done that and it wasn't answered to my needs. Basically, it was never said whether these tabs were legal or illegal. Also, if you read my post, i brought up other issues that weren't addressed in that thread. Also no official has chimed in yet....Thanks for your help though.

Anyways, Paul_, pinching the scoop is an advantage, or else box players wouldn't pinch their sticks and we wouldn't have the 6.5" minimum. The advantage is more of a channel. If these holes don't help the player, then we're all caught up in a gimmick....and it's quite obvious that they do.

[CoachRob]

I have already done that and it wasn't answered to my needs. Basically, it was never said whether these tabs were legal or illegal. Also, if you read my post, i brought up other issues that weren't addressed in that thread. Also no official has chimed in yet....Thanks for your help though.

KOB,
It was stated in the other post that the tabs are an uncertain factor. There is nothing in the rules dealing with them. I cannot see them being illegal so long as they don't make up the majority of the sidewall.

Also, you asked On a sidenote, does it say where the widest point has to be?. The rules do NOT specify; they just state ...inside measurement at its widest point.... If that happens to be closer to the stop than the tip of the crosse head, so be it. I don't know what a diamond shape head provides in terms of advantages, but the women's pockets are not as deep, and perhaps that's a factor in the design.

And while I am not an official, as you are aware, I have made myself as familiar with the rules as many refs. Knowing what constitutes a legal stick is one of the most basic and important rules to know. As a coach, my players are required to wear and use legal equipment and it is part of my responsibility to educate them. I'm surprised you are not aware of NCAA Rule 1-23:

Coaches Certification
SECTION 23. The pregame equipment certification by the head coach shall
act as the team warning. The head coach shall certify to the referee before
the game that all players:
a. Have been informed what equipment is mandatory and what constitutes
illegal equipment.
b. Have been provided the equipment mandated by rule.
c. Have been instructed to wear and how to wear mandatory equipment
during the game.
d. Have been instructed to notify the coaching staff when equipment
becomes illegal through play during the game.
e. Have had their crosses, uniforms and all other equipment inspected by
the head coach for meeting specifications.


You must have plenty of access fo collegiate officials. Have you had a chance to ask them about this "tab" issue?

[LaxRef]

Also no official has chimed in yet....Thanks for your help though.


I guess I'd have to see it up close, but I likely would rule that tabs are indeed part of the sidewall. Thus, I'd be looking for the widest point, plastic to plastic.

I don't think the rules specifically address your question.

[LatinBabe]

if you string it up though at the outside sidewalls were the widest part is 6.5 be legal? even though the inner part is not 6.5, but is not where the pocket is strung from and doesn not inhibit ball travel?

i mean, it sounds like it should be legal to have the inner tabs be less than 6.5 unless you strung your pocket from them.

so in this pic, if the tabs are less than 6.5 apart shouldn't it be illegal? but had the head been strung from the outer sidewalls which is 6.5 inches, wouldn't it be legal no matter how big the tabs are as long as they do not keep the ball from coming out?

[LaxRef]

if you string it up though at the outside sidewalls were the widest part is 6.5 be legal? even though the inner part is not 6.5, but is not where the pocket is strung from and doesn not inhibit ball travel?

i mean, it sounds like it should be legal to have the inner tabs be less than 6.5 unless you strung your pocket from them.

so in this pic, if the tabs are less than 6.5 apart shouldn't it be illegal? but had the head been strung from the outer sidewalls which is 6.5 inches, wouldn't it be legal no matter how big the tabs are as long as they do not keep the ball from coming out?

The rules are mute on where the strings attach to the head, so I'm just looking for the widest point being at least 6.5 inches. If it's not, I'm throwing the flag.

Think about it: the absurd extreme is to have tabs stick in 1.5 inches on either side and claim that the pocket isn't strung to them. They will, of course, inhibit the ball from falling out, which is rather the point.

[LatinBabe]

no.. their point is to further pinch the head, they do not inhibit the ball from coming out at all.

[LaxRef]

no.. their point is to further pinch the head, they do not inhibit the ball from coming out at all.

(Sigh.)

You're missing the point. IF you allow people to ignore plastic that protrudes inward as long as it doesn't have strings attached, THEN you have to allow long pieces whose purpose is to inhibit the balll from coming out. Either that, or you'd need to completely re-write the rules.

I'm sticking with my interpretation: at least 6.5 inches at the widest point, measured plastic to plastic. If those tabs make you under 6.5 inches, I'm throwing the flag.

[LatinBabe]

laxref... i'm having a hard tim understanding this...

if those tabs make it under 6.5 inches, but it is strung from the actual sidewall it is illegal? then how is the throat legal? it is always under 6.5 inches. i am not tryin to pick a fight, just tryin to grasp it. as long as the tabs do not keep the ball from coming out, and it is 6.5 inches from sidewall to sidewall, wouldn't they just follow the rest of the rules governing whether or not the ball can move freely?

[kryptic]

From the other thread
The head is measured from the front, where the ball enters, not the back. Those “tabs” appear to be on the backside, and therefore are not an issue. It is the sidewall that matters.

When I look at the front of the head you have pictured, if the red line is indeed 5 7/8th” wide, then this is an ILLEGAL crosse. It must be at LEAST 6 1/2 inches wide at the TOP (outer part) and BOTTOM (inner part) of the sidewall. The bottom of your sidewall, as marked by the red line, simply is too narrow, in my opinion and according to the rules as I understand them.

Now why would they specify BOTH the top and bottom of the sidewall? Because if it were just the top, then the bottoms could curve in so far as to be nearly touching, essentially eliminating the mesh netting. The head would be a big plastic stick that would have no netting and would make the game more like cricket than lacrosse.

LaxRef, Snake and eme, any thoughts?? Disagreements?

From what I'm getting from this, is that if the head is measured from the "front of the sidewall", which is a legal length on the Torque, then it's fine.

Yet, it has to be 10">x>6.5" at the widest point, making the Torque illegal.
I'm confused as Coach Rob states up there

[Laxref_36]

There are some interesting points made here. It was my impression that the reason sticks were modified was for the player to gain and advantage. Hence, the stick with the most pinch at the top would channel or funnel the ball more than the stick that wasn't pinched. Much like a Goalkeeper vs Attackmen crosse. So the advantage of having a wider spot lower down on the crosse, could in theory allow for a more accurate shot or pass (box sticks are four ins. or less). The official has to measure, under the current rules, at the widest point. Does the wider crosse closer to the throat allow the ball to be checked out more easily? The ramifications to this issue are interesting. Can you throw a better pass, shot, check ... Have a better faceoff technique?

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the current rules that addresses this issue or the tab issue. The rule book does, in Rule 1 Section 8 (NFHS) and Rule 1 Section 20 (NCAA), address Crosse Prohibitions and there might be some interpretations there. Especially around stringing that is "designed to withhold the ball from play are prohibited". It's not exactly "on point" but it comes close.

As an official that is all I can make a determination on. Does the crosse meet the specifications as outlined in the governing body rule book?

Interestingly enough, this maybe the next line of development that the framers of the rule book and rules committee will have to deal with. Historically, whenever there is a new development where an advantage is gained by circumventing the rules, there is an adjustment (rule book or approved mechanic) either in season, or prior to the next season.

[CoachRob]

so in this pic, if the tabs are less than 6.5 apart shouldn't it be illegal? but had the head been strung from the outer sidewalls which is 6.5 inches, wouldn't it be legal no matter how big the tabs are as long as they do not keep the ball from coming out?

LB,
It is not relevant where you place the strings on the stick. The rule states the measurement is to be made on the sidewall, NOT where the lacing interfaces with the sidewall. Also, your picture doesn't have tabs like the ones from the other post. Yours has a rail all the way around attached to the sidewall with bars, between which the laces may be strung.

I am attaching a CRUDE drawing (no comments about the quality, please!) that demonstrates the point. I maintain so long as the BLUE line is >6.5", and it is the WIDEST point, then this head is legal. The tabs may be closer than 6.5" at the RED line, but as you stated, so is MOST of the head of the crosse.

[LaxRef]

LB,
It is not relevant where you place the strings on the stick. The rule states the measurement is to be made on the sidewall, NOT where the lacing interfaces with the sidewall. Also, your picture doesn't have tabs like the ones from the other post. Yours has a rail all the way around attached to the sidewall with bars, between which the laces may be strung.

I am attaching a CRUDE drawing (no comments about the quality, please!) that demonstrates the point. I maintain so long as the BLUE line is >6.5", and it is the WIDEST point, then this head is legal. The tabs may be closer than 6.5" at the RED line, but as you stated, so is MOST of the head of the crosse.

I'm with CoachMichelangelo, er, CoachRob on this one. The rules says:

The head of the crosse at its widest point shall measure between 6 1/2 and 10 inches, inside measurement, at the top and the bottom of the side wall.

They don't define the sidewall other than to give a diagram that points to all parts of the perimeter except for the scoop. My interpretation is that those tabs are part of the sidewall. If the NCAA or NFHS issues a ruling saying that they aren't, then I'll change the way I enforce it.

However, where those tabs stick out on the first picture will obviously not be the widest point, so that's not where I'll be measuring.

I don't really have any sympathy for the equipment makers if their new stuff gets ruled illegal because NCAA rule 1-25 rules says:

The Men’s Lacrosse Rules Committee suggests that manufacturers planning innovative changes in lacrosse equipment submit the equipment to the committee for review before production.

[CoachRob]

I'm with CoachMichelangelo, er, CoachRob on this one.

I'm glad somebody appreciates my OUTSTANDING drawing. It took me hours...

Plus, the added bonus that you agree!! This is indeed a great day.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

damn i hate us field lax rules....who cares about pinch, throw the flag when a guy gets pummeled and the ball never comes out and traps in the head, otherwise, who cares?!?

does it make a huge huge differece whether it's 6.5 or 5.5???

Narrow means he cannot catch or scoop as good, so there....

I like canadian rules and aussie rules....WE CAN USE POWERPLAYS that is how carelees they are, as long as the ball does not trap in the head we are cool

[TheKOB]

damn i hate us field lax rules....who cares about pinch, throw the flag when a guy gets pummeled and the ball never comes out and traps in the head, otherwise, who cares?!?

does it make a huge huge differece whether it's 6.5 or 5.5???

Narrow means he cannot catch or scoop as good, so there....

I like canadian rules and aussie rules....WE CAN USE POWERPLAYS that is how carelees they are, as long as the ball does not trap in the head we are cool


narrow also means that it's much harder to knock the ball out.

[LaxRef]

damn i hate us field lax rules....who cares about pinch, throw the flag when a guy gets pummeled and the ball never comes out and traps in the head, otherwise, who cares?!?

The NCAA rules committee and, by extension, the NCAA coaches. They write the rules. Obviously, they think there's a fairness issue there somewhere, and they chose to draw the line at 6.5 inches.

Look at it this way: if it doesn't really matter, then you should be able to get along just fine with a legal stick. And if it does matter, then by using an illegal stick you're gaining an unfair advantage over all of the people using legal sticks. Either way, the only thing that makes sense is for you to use a legal stick under whatever set of rules you're playing under. Or, if you can't deal with those rules, don't play any games that use that rule set.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

hence the warrior blade people

[CoachRob]

Illegal. At its widest point, the sidewall is NOT 6.5 inches. Where does the TOP end and the BOTTOM begin? The transition zone (middle) could be called the top OR bottom and thus disqualify the crosse.

I imagine you could come up with all types of scenarios and fight it out with each individual ref. Is the head you drew practical? Not really.

I put this in the category of "...nothing is impossible...". Can I touch the sun and not get burnt? "No", you say. But hey, they make heat shields for the Space Shuttle that effectively dissipate heat, and I SUPPOSE with technology, a similar process could provide a heat shield to protect me from the sun. Can I jump to the moon? "No", you say. But what if the moon loses orbit and heads toward the earth. Just before crashing into North America, I COULD jump to the moon. So, nothing is TRULY impossible, just highly impractical

I think you get the idea. While I admire the cleverness of the suggestion, I don't find it a practical head and as I said, I would disallow it. But that's just me.

[LaxRef]

So hold on, reading "The head of the crosse at its widest point shall measure between 6 1/2 and 10 inches, inside measurement, at the top and the bottom of the side wall.", I what happens if the top of the sidewall is 6.5, the middle of the sidewall is 6.2, and the bottom of the sidewall is 6.5?

Lay the stick flat on a table with the open part of the pocket facing up. Now look at the stick from the side of the table, so you can see the shaft and the side of the head, but not the netting. The "top" of the sidewall is the part of the sidewall closest to the ceiling and the "bottom" is the part touching (or nearly touching) the table.

You're using "top" and "bottom" to mean something entirely different--thinking about holding the stick vertically, with the head sticking straight up--which is why you're confused.

Hope this helps.

[LatinBabe]

they should just use the term "face"

when looking at the face of the head the widest part must be 6.5 inches from inside to inside... ok, rail.. tabs... thats what i meant. from sidewall to sidewall it is 6.5 inches, but inner rail to inner rail is 5.5... flag thrown because the face at the widest point is only 5.5.. don't matter about where the technical sidewall is... ok ok... i got it.