Stiff Arm?

[memphislax]

Can you use the stiff arm to keep a defender off of you or to get by him? Is this legal in Lacrosse?

[PompLax14]

No. This is known as "Warding". You can leave your arm out but you cannot push or hit with it. I forget the penalty for it.

[memphislax]

that is a boo boo rule. but oh well

[Snake~eyes]

that is a boo boo rule. but oh well
Just think about how easy it'd be to score if you could push your defender away from you.

[GHSDefense101]

the penalty is a change of possesion in most leauges, you can hold your arm out at a 90 degree downward angle and use it to take the checks but if you move it around to prevent slashes you will probably get called

[eme]

Warding Off Rule 7-12. " A player in possession of the ball shall not use his free hand or arm of any other part of his body to HOLD, PUSH or CONTROL the direction of the movement of the crosse or body of the player applying the check."

Every time Doug Shanahan drives to the cage the defense is crying "He's Warding!"

Impossible to ward with two hands on the crosse.

[ploaref]

So, to extend this concept, is the old "Bull Dodge" wherein a man with the ball lowers his shoulder, holds his stick back, and bulls his way THROUGH a defender, maybe even knocking him down...is this action a ward? Most bull dodges i've seen do not involve extending one's arm in a "stiff-arming" way...

Isn't he using a part of his body to push or control the direction of the defender's body and/or stick??

[LaxRef]

So, to extend this concept, is the old "Bull Dodge" wherein a man with the ball lowers his shoulder, holds his stick back, and bulls his way THROUGH a defender, maybe even knocking him down...is this action a ward? Most bull dodges i've seen do not involve extending one's arm in a "stiff-arming" way...

Isn't he using a part of his body to push or control the direction of the defender's body and/or stick??

I asked the same question last spring, and never got a satisfactory answer. See:

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=4884&highlight=Bull+dodge

[eme]

if he's got two hands on his stick...he can bull away...no warding call.

If he's bulling and the free arm/hand is pinned to his body...no warding, no call. This is very hard to do at speed.

What is far more likely to happen when he starts bulling his way in is that the free arm (off the stick) will come away from his body (you will see daylight)
and push ing the defender's body or crosse. I've got warding there and it's easy to sell the call. You won't find this defined in the rulebook.

[LaxRef]

if he's got two hands on his stick...he can bull away...no warding call.

If he's bulling and the free arm/hand is pinned to his body...no warding, no call. This is very hard to do at speed.

What is far more likely to happen when he starts bulling his way in is that the free arm (off the stick) will come away from his body (you will see daylight)
and push ing the defender's body or crosse. I've got warding there and it's easy to sell the call. You won't find this defined in the rulebook.

This may well be "the way it is called." However, looking only at what the rules say, if you have the ball and knock someone over, you could call it an illegal bodycheck (the person doesn't have the ball and isn't within 5 yards of a loose ball) or a ward (since he is using his body to control the direction of the body of the defender). If they want to allow the bull dodge, they need to fix the rules to make it clear that it's legal.

[Laxref_36]

I'm thinking of the play when A2 sets a pick for A1 and B1 who is guarding A1 sees the pick. While going full speed, B1 drills A2. More often than not, this is the classic unnecessary roughness call. Where a player without the ball, and not within five yards of a loose ball, is intentionally being checked. In the bull dodge scenario the same action is being taken on the defender this time. Again, no possesion, no loose ball. There are similarities here.

I realize we don't want to take the offensive players right to go to the goal away from them, but he can't spear with the head, so there are restrictions on what they can do.

It can also be very obvious if the offensive player veers away from the goal just to make contact with a defender. I think that the onus is on the player with the ball to be making an offensive play.

[eme]

I would say if the defender has his feet planted and the attacker with the ball deliberately runs him over, you could call illegal bodycheck. If he leads with his head...that's an easy call. But if the defender is moving at all towards the attacker and he gets flattened...I have nuthin'.

[TheKOB]

...or even if the defender had his feet planted, but was pushing the "offender" (gotta love unintentional puns) and the guy pushed back, bowling him over....seems like there's not much ground for a penalty there...

[Snake~eyes]

I would say if the defender has his feet planted and the attacker with the ball deliberately runs him over, you could call illegal bodycheck. If he leads with his head...that's an easy call. But if the defender is moving at all towards the attacker and he gets flattened...I have nuthin'.
I don't really know. I think it would be hard to sell an illegal body check call, I have a no call.

[LaxRef]

I don't really know. I think it would be hard to sell an illegal body check call, I have a no call.

Picture a player who is within 5 yards of a loose ball or who is not in possession of the ball. Now picture a defensive player hitting that payer substantially enough that you call an illegal bodycheck.

Do you not see that, according to the rules as currently written, you need to make the same call if the player in possession makes the same hit against a defensive player?

Again, I'm not saying this is necessaruly how it should be, but that it's what the rules say.

Similarly, that stuff about "using your body" to direct the body of the opposing player being a ward: maybe they need to take that out and add a line saying you can't be called for a ward with both hands on the stick.

[smittMONEY]

I'm pretty sure you can have your arm out for protection, but once pressure is applied to it you are required to drop your arm to your side.

[CoachRob]

Warding Off Rule 7-12. "A player in possession of the ball shall not use his free hand or arm of any other part of his body to HOLD, PUSH or CONTROL the direction of the movement of the crosse or body of the player applying the check."

Impossible to ward with two hands on the crosse.

Well, that's open to debate (a little). If a player uses his elbow and moves it from his side and moves it out like a bird's flapping wing, while still keeping his hand on the stick, some refs call that warding as he is using "any other part of his body" to push or redirect a defender.

It is said that an ostrich can break a man's arm by flapping his wing. Well, a player can generate a tremendous amount of force by getting in close to a defender, then moving his elbow out and away from his body (from pointing down to perpendicular to his own body) to shove a defender. Is this not warding??? I used to think not, but you can redirect someone just as easily with your elbow as you can with your hand.

I saw a large player do this repeatedly and get called for it when he literally knocked over a defender by thrusting out his elbow.

IMO, this IS warding.

[ref4ee]

Well, that's open to debate (a little). If a player uses his elbow and moves it from his side and moves it out like a bird's flapping wing, while still keeping his hand on the stick, some refs call that warding as he is using "any other part of his body" to push or redirect a defender.

It is said that an ostrich can break a man's arm by flapping his wing. Well, a player can generate a tremendous amount of force by getting in close to a defender, then moving his elbow out and away from his body (from pointing down to perpendicular to his own body) to shove a defender. Is this not warding??? I used to think not, but you can redirect someone just as easily with your elbow as you can with your hand.

I saw a large player do this repeatedly and get called for it when he literally knocked over a defender by thrusting out his elbow.

IMO, this IS warding.

The following govern I how would call these scenarios.

1) Two hands on the stick and the defender is engaging...no call.

2) Two hands on the stick, but an elbow comes out to engage/flatten the defender....personal foul, unnecessary roughness (this would also cover the scenario where the attacker is "looking to run someone over" as described at the beginning of this thread.

My two cents

[peteylax]

the rule on "warding' is that you can use you arm to protect yourself, but as soon as you bend your elbow and hit the guy defending you with your forearm, its a ward.