Faceoff or not to faceoff?

[Laxref_36]

Thought I'd get in the holiday spirit with a lax quiz.

Here is the scenario:

Team A has the ball with seven seconds left in the first half. Team A is also a man down with 20 seconds left in the foul and the penalty will extend 13 seconds into the third quarter. Team A is attempting to "kill" the remaining time left in the half and gain possession without a faceoff to start the third quarter, that is when team B slashs team A. The referees are ever vigilant and they throw the flag directly after the slash. Seven seconds run off and Team A maintains possession of the ball and the horn sounds with the flag still on the ground.

Where do you start the ball? Next period, faceoff or award. To whom do you award and where?

You will have to think this one out, as there is nothing in either rule book (2004) that is directly on point.

[Snake~eyes]

You will have to think this one out, as there is nothing in either rule book (2004) that is directly on point.
You sure? I was thinking there was. I know what my answer is.

[shrekjr]

Don't know if it's right or not but I'm thinking I start the 3rd quarter with B in the box for the slash, and allow A to start with possession where it ended the 2nd quarter.

[eme]

"Flag down denotes possession"...as period ends A has ball and flag is down for B slash, so A gets ball. No faceoff to start third period. If ball was in A's defensive half at end of period, then A gets it at ctr X with two feet over midline. If ball was in A's offensive half as second period ended, then A gets
ball at relative same spot (remember they switch ends) in their offensive end...unless it's inside their offensive goal area whereby they get it outside that area. If it's near the sideline along the wing area, they get it five yards in.

[Laxref_36]

You sure? I was thinking there was. I know what my answer is.

Snake,

Let me know your thoughts, point in the rule book, etc...

[eme]

It's rule 4-3 under Facing Off...sentence starting "Exceptions..."

[Snake~eyes]

I thought it was in there, Eme is right.

It's rule 4-3 under Facing Off...sentence starting "Exceptions..."


I thought it was in there because I had this discussion with a partner last year and I believe we might have even had a discussiona bout it here.

[Laxref_36]

Rule 4-3 Exceptions: (1) In the event of an extra-man situation or a flag-down situation the creates an extra-man situation ....


I ask you to read the quiz again, and ask yourself, "Is there an extra man situation?".

I'm open to all interpretations!!!

[peteylax]

id say its a man down faceoff for both teams (i know it would never happen unless both teams had an unrealeasable penalty, but thats the best i can think of)

[eme]

I re-read the quiz. My initial answer was wrong, I do believe.

A was man down..now there's a flag on the field as the period ends but it is ON THE B TEAM...thereby creating an all-even situation as the period has ended.

One would think that if the statement :"flag-down that creates an extra-man at the conclusion of any period..." holds true then its reverse (which is unstated in the rulebook) is also true: a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period shall begin with a FO."
Rule 4-3 Exceptions for those following along....

[rilax]

What about 4.3 sit B and 4.3 sit E? While niter deals with the question directly inferences can be made from them.

Sit E seams to be the more direct of the two and states:

A1 has possession and B1 commits penalty in the offensive half of field; flag down. Ball becomes loose as period ends. Ruling: Next period starts with the ball awarded to Team A at same relative position at other end of field and player committing foul serving penalty time.

I realize that in your example the ball did not come loose but I do not see how that affects the ruling. Do notice that the sit has no language creating an exception to the ruling if the enforcement of the penalty creates a 9-9 (or other X-X) situation.

Now 4.3 sit B is similar but does have this at the ruling portion. “However, if the foul occurs between periods the ball is awarded to A at center line. This does suggest that that the ruling was written to deal with the period ending in a 10-10 situation however again there is no language that there is a exception if the period ended in a x-1 to x situation.

Not sure if any off these will change the line of thinking but just some stuff to stir in….

[shrekjr]

eme,

Just assuming you'll be at the convention in Philly. I nominate you to get all the answers! :)

I was going to go to the convention this year for the first time, but I now have a mandatory football meeting that weekend.

[Snake~eyes]

I re-read the quiz. My initial answer was wrong, I do believe.

A was man down..now there's a flag on the field as the period ends but it is ON THE B TEAM...thereby creating an all-even situation as the period has ended.

One would think that if the statement :"flag-down that creates an extra-man at the conclusion of any period..." holds true then its reverse (which is unstated in the rulebook) is also true: a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period shall begin with a FO."
Rule 4-3 Exceptions for those following along....
I also misread the quiz, I agree, in your scenario we don't have a extra man situation. I don't bleieve there's any specific case on anything like this though.

[Laxref_36]

What about 4.3 sit B and 4.3 sit E? While niter deals with the question directly inferences can be made from them.

Sit E seams to be the more direct of the two and states:

A1 has possession and B1 commits penalty in the offensive half of field; flag down. Ball becomes loose as period ends. Ruling: Next period starts with the ball awarded to Team A at same relative position at other end of field and player committing foul serving penalty time.

I realize that in your example the ball did not come loose but I do not see how that affects the ruling. Do notice that the sit has no language creating an exception to the ruling if the enforcement of the penalty creates a 9-9 (or other X-X) situation.

Now 4.3 sit B is similar but does have this at the ruling portion. “However, if the foul occurs between periods the ball is awarded to A at center line. This does suggest that that the ruling was written to deal with the period ending in a 10-10 situation however again there is no language that there is a exception if the period ended in a x-1 to x situation.

Not sure if any off these will change the line of thinking but just some stuff to stir in….


rilax,

For the quiz purposes only, please note that both teams are a man down after the enforcement of the penalty. Hence the exception to the faceoff rule has not been met. Although both teams are a man-down, neither team has an EXTRA-man at the conclusion of the period. I side with peteylax on the answer here. I've tried in the quiz to have people think about the ramifications of having flag down at the end of the period. In addition see eme post that includes "One would think that if the statement :"flag-down that creates an extra-man at the conclusion of any period..." holds true then its reverse (which is unstated in the rulebook) is also true: a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period shall begin with a FO."" In a way the quiz asks you to take the next logical step that even though not explicitly written (not in case book, nor an AR), can be inferred by previous rulings that you quite correctly stated in your post.


Congratulations to ALL of you, for your efforts on helping me solve this ACTUAL play I had last year.

Laxref_36

[CoachRob]

Snake made reference to this. I took issue with the wording "extra man" a few months ago and it generated much discussion. I take it to mean that if either or both teams has one or more players in the penalty box, then end of period possession determines who gets the ball to start the next period. To me, it's not an "extra" man, but rather the fact whenever either team has a man off (that is to say, we are not starting 10 vs 10) invokes this rule. Whether or not the # of players on the field matches may not be the issue. I think it's simply if at least one player is in the box, the exception kicks in. But that's just my opinion and there were no cases in the NFHS book to back up either position.

The rules could be clearer. I would agree with eme's first answer, not his revised one. And I don't think there is any case to prove this view incorrect.

[LaxRef]

Snake made reference to this. I took issue with the wording "extra man" a few months ago and it generated much discussion. I take it to mean that if either or both teams has one or more players in the penalty box, then end of period possession determines who gets the ball to start the next period. To me, it's not an "extra" man, but rather the fact whenever either team has a man off (that is to say, we are not starting 10 vs 10) invokes this rule. Whether or not the # of players on the field matches may not be the issue. I think it's simply if at least one player is in the box, the exception kicks in. But that's just my opinion and there were no cases in the NFHS book to back up either position.

The rules could be clearer. I would agree with eme's first answer, not his revised one. And I don't think there is any case to prove this view incorrect.

Well, I agree and disagree. First off, "extra man" is defined in the rulebook, in Appendix 2:

g. Extra-Man Offense and Defense—Any time a team is playing one or more men short or extra counts as an extra-man opportunity on offense or defense. If both teams are equal on the field but short of men (e.g., each team is a man down), it is not an extra-man offense or defense opportunity.

Thus, if the teams are even, it is not an extra-man situation. Personally, I think that if anyone is in the box, possession should carry over, but that's not how it's worded.

However, I agree that eme's original ruling is the correct one. In the situation described, the period ends in during an extra-man situation. In other words, even though the teams will start the next period even, because they ended the period uneven possession should carry over. It's actually not even until the whistle blows to start the next period.

In addition, starting the period with a faceoff violates the principle that on a time-serving penalty against one team (no other fouls involved), the offended team is awarded possession to re-start play. To rule otherwise is to encourage fouling at the end of periods.

[LaxRef]

One would think that if the statement :"flag-down that creates an extra-man at the conclusion of any period..." holds true then its reverse (which is unstated in the rulebook) is also true: a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period shall begin with a FO."

This type of logic is not valid. Consider:

If player A1 shoots while wearing purple underwear and the ball goes into the goal, then a goal is awarded to team A.

The reverse would be:

If player A1 shoots while not wearing purple underwear and the ball goes into the goal, then no goal is awarded to team A.

And that's clearly not the case, nor would I want to be the guy checking the underwear :chuckle:

[CoachRob]

I agree with LaxRef. The foul against B1 does not take effect until the beginning of the next period. So, this IS a man-down situation at the end of the period, and possession determines who gets the ball to start the next session.

Further support for awarding the ball to team A is that they were the last team fouled, which would award the ball to them in such a case. To do otherwise would indeed encourage end-of-period fouls. It is the intent, IMO, of "Flag down denotes possession".

Thought of another way. Suppose both teams are at full strength. Now B1 slashes A2 as the period ends. Wouldn't you award the ball to team A at the same relative field position to start the period? If "Yes", why would you DENY team A the ball in this case simply because one team has one (or more) men in the box under the same slashing situation? It doesn't make sense.

As for the purple underwear example, I'll leave that one alone...

Very interesting case LR_36. Having read the responses what do you NOW think is the correct procedure???

[eme]

Since the rulebook doesn't help us here, I can see where you can sellit as a "flag down denotes possession" pitch.
But I think I can sell my answer, too, (#2 above..the corrected one) even if it takes me 10 seconds longer to do so.

[CoachRob]

Since the rulebook doesn't help us here, I can see where you can sell it as a "flag down denotes possession" pitch. But I think I can sell my answer, too, (#2 above..the corrected one) even if it takes me 10 seconds longer to do so.

You'd have a VERY hard time selling it to me. Answer the question I posed:

Suppose both teams are at full strength. B1 slashes A2 in possessionn as the period ends. Wouldn't you award the ball to team A at the same relative field position to start the period? If "Yes", why would you DENY team A the ball in this case simply because one team has one (or more) men in the box under the same slashing situation?

I just don't see how you can ignore the "flag down denotes possession" clause. Unless team A also commits a foul after the flag is thrown for B1's slash and the horn to end the period, invoking the simultanous foul rule (and all that entails), order has been established and team A is deserving of the ball as the last team fouled. I don't see any way around it, eme. I really don't.

[eme]

Coach R: I was answering laxref36's original question. Of course, in your situation, you would award to A...as the rule states.

[CoachRob]

Oh, sorry 'bout that. I got confused which question you were answering.

[Laxref_36]

Coach Rob, Laxref, and others,

The wording in the rule book is one where you have to determine when is "the conclusion of any period". From my perspective I would deem that time frame to be everything that happens prior to the "check with the official scorer at the end of the period" (page 19 Section 6 Article 4).

The flag down definitely denotes possession, but the only reason you have a flag is because you have a penalty. You can't have the flag without the penalty. If you acknowledge one, you must acknowledge the other!

If I were to use the logic that Laxref applied to the situation (ie. the penalty has not been enforced before the whistle blew to end the period), the scenario that Coach Rob listed would have a faceoff. As the penalty does not get adjudicated till AFTER the period has ended. We know that this is not true (Page 52 Rule 4.3 Situation B). If you are applying the standard to one foul at the end of the period, you must apply it to all.

If a coach requests timeout at the start of the second half (faceoff having not yet occurred), that timeout is charged to the first half! See page 72 NFHS book Situation B. The only point here is that even though the time has elapsed for the first half, things are still charged to that half well after the horn has gone.

The key here is for me is are we uneven in the box at the start of the next period. If we are, the exception can hold true, and we award the ball. If we start even on the field. Neither team has a man advantage, the exception does not hold true. I'm facing the ball off.

Laxref_36

[shrekjr]

Okay, I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but we never really resolved it.

According to our district's Chief Referee and Rules Interpreter, the team in possession at the end of a quarter in which there is a flag down will remain in possession at the beginning of the next quarter, regardless of the number of players in the box serving penalties.

Is that right? Beats me! But that is the decision that has been made for us until it comes down differently from the national level or someone convinces him otherwise, so that is the way it will be played here.

[CoachRob]

Okay, I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but we never really resolved it.

According to our district's Chief Referee and Rules Interpreter, the team in possession at the end of a quarter in which there is a flag down will remain in possession at the beginning of the next quarter, regardless of the number of players in the box serving penalties.

Is that right? Beats me! But that is the decision that has been made for us until it comes down differently from the national level or someone convinces him otherwise, so that is the way it will be played here.

By regardless of the number of players in the box serving penalties..., are you saying, as I have contended, that it is not the EXTRA man that matters, only that so long as at least ONE player is in the box, possession carries over? So, if A2 and B2 are the only players serving time (yielding even strength on the field at 9 vs. 9), and A1 has possession, team A would get the ball to restart the next period? I believe this to be true; others disagree and state possession ONLY carries over in 9 v 10, 8 v 9, 7 v 8, 6 v 7, etc. (e.g. Extra man situations).

(Ignore the current end of period penalty issue that generated this thread for the time being). :nono:

[shrekjr]

By regardless of the number of players in the box serving penalties..., are you saying, as I have contended, that it is not the EXTRA man that matters, only that so long as at least ONE player is in the box, possession carries over? So, if A2 and B2 are the only players serving time (yielding even strength on the field at 9 vs. 9), and A1 has possession, team A would get the ball to restart the next period? I believe this to be true; others disagree and state possession ONLY carries over in 9 v 10, 8 v 9, 7 v 8, 6 v 7, etc. (e.g. Extra man situations).

(Ignore the current end of period penalty issue that generated this thread for the time being). :nono:

Well, the short (but to be continued) conversation we had only took into account the period ending during a flag down scenario. We did not get time to discuss possession vs. faceoff based on numbers of players in the box. I'll work on that local interpretation by next weekend.

[LaxRef]

Rule 4-3 Exceptions: (1) In the event of an extra-man situation or a flag-down situation the creates an extra-man situation ....


I ask you to read the quiz again, and ask yourself, "Is there an extra man situation?".

I'm open to all interpretations!!!


I think I found a rule that clears this all up:

In all cases when a goal is not scored, the ball is awarded to the team fouled (the attacking team), at the spot where the ball was when play was suspended (as in Section 3 of this rule).

Thus, regardless of what it says in 4-3 (which admittedly left open the possibility that there could be a faceoff if the flag-down led to an even situation), this says that the ball is awarded to the fouled team.

[shrekjr]

I think I found a rule that clears this all up:

Thus, regardless of what it says in 4-3 (which admittedly left open the possibility that there could be a faceoff if the flag-down led to an even situation), this says that the ball is awarded to the fouled team.
I can buy (and sell!) that.

[Laxref_36]

Okay, I know this thread has been dead for a couple of weeks, but we never really resolved it.

According to our district's Chief Referee and Rules Interpreter, the team in possession at the end of a quarter in which there is a flag down will remain in possession at the beginning of the next quarter, regardless of the number of players in the box serving penalties.

Is that right? Beats me! But that is the decision that has been made for us until it comes down differently from the national level or someone convinces him otherwise, so that is the way it will be played here.

Shrekjr,

I can't speak for the NFHS at this time, but check out the latest rule clarifications that are posted in this forum. The one that speaks to this thread in particular is.

Rule 4-3. Add Note 4: “In the event of a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period will begin with a faceoff.”


This should clarify what I thought was an interesting scenario, that I dealt with last spring.

Laxref_36

[shrekjr]

I saw that and you are right, it does specifically tell us what to do now.

[rilax]

I think I found a rule that clears this all up:



Thus, regardless of what it says in 4-3 (which admittedly left open the possibility that there could be a faceoff if the flag-down led to an even situation), this says that the ball is awarded to the fouled team.
However 7-9 talks about enforcement after a slow whistle however I can’t seem to find anything in 7-8 to say that ending a quarter technical ends a slow whistle. Now does this allow for 4-3 to take hold and prevent a rule difference? I believe so.

[laxref39]

Shrekjr,

I can't speak for the NFHS at this time, but check out the latest rule clarifications that are posted in this forum. The one that speaks to this thread in particular is.

Rule 4-3. Add Note 4: “In the event of a flag-down that creates an all-even situation at the conclusion of any period, the next period will begin with a faceoff.”


This should clarify what I thought was an interesting scenario, that I dealt with last spring.

Laxref_36

I did not see A NOTE 4 IN THE 2005 BOOK! bUT IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE PERIOD, TEAM A WAS STILL A MAN DOWN WITH A PENALTY FLAG DOWN. eNFORCEMENT OF THE PENALTY HAD NOT YET OCCURED WHEN THE PERIOD ENDED. So it would seem to me team a should retain possession!

[rilax]

I did not see A NOTE 4 IN THE 2005 BOOK! bUT IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE PERIOD, TEAM A WAS STILL A MAN DOWN WITH A PENALTY FLAG DOWN. eNFORCEMENT OF THE PENALTY HAD NOT YET OCCURED WHEN THE PERIOD ENDED. So it would seem to me team a should retain possession!
Memo came out: see http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=14916