ball getting stuck in the back of the stick

[jedimasterPIMP]

i was just confused becuase the other day i took a face off and pulled a plunger and the ball got stuck in my stick but i got it out pretty quickly the ref gave me a penalty for illegal procedure which i didn't get but then the other day i was talking to a buddy thats a ref and he said you have 5 seconds to get the ball out of the back of your crosse. Whats the exact rule on the ball getting stuck in the back of your stick?

[rilax]

This is basically what was the interruption I believe is correct. Some people think that the NFHS should be the 4 second count all the time……


“Plunger” move on face-offs:
This move is when a face-off man clamps on the ball in such a manner as to force the ball into the backside of the crosse head so that it does not come out. This is to be called as withholding the ball form play as it was the player’s actions that caused the ball to become stuck in the cross. In NCAA rules whenever the ball becomes stuck in the crosse it is an immediate turnover see 4-7-b. In NFHS if the ball becomes stuck in the crosse there should be a 4-second count given and then the ball is given to the team with the A.P. arrow. “Becomes” should be interrupted as an inadvertent action, which the “plunger” move is not.

edit:spelling

[CTLaxer]

You can get called for an illegal stick and have your stick basically taken away for the whole game and any goals you scored would be removed if you cannot fix the problem that is causing the ball to get stuck in your stick (ie pinched too much). I forget the exact rule, but just wait and someone else will cite the exact rule

[rilax]

You can get called for an illegal stick and have your stick basically taken away for the whole game and any goals you scored would be removed if you cannot fix the problem that is causing the ball to get stuck in your stick (ie pinched too much). I forget the exact rule, but just wait and someone else will cite the exact rule

That is a bit wrong they can only take away the goal that one scores before the next face off.

[CTLaxer]

No, they will remove any goals scored with the offending stick prior to being noticed by the official and called.

[rilax]

5-4 A.R. 6. A1 scores. Before the next whistle, it is discovered that A1 was playing with an illegal crosse. RULING: Goal does not count. A1 serves a one- or three-minute nonreleasable penalty.

says goal not goals etc... Think of it this way who says he was using another crosse before that one or if the crosse became illegal though use.
(NFHS has simular language)

[LatinBabe]

depends on your official. i have seen calls were all goals were removed for illegal game stick.

[CTLaxer]

Well, I've seen instances where all the goals were removed, could be an old rule from when I played that has since been changed.

[TheKOB]

all goals? That's re-durn-diculous. You're only really (in NCAA at least) supposed to get 1 min if the stick was accidently turned illegal (like through checks, or say, a faceoff).

I've never seen a stick called illegal in the time between the goal and the faceoff...it's not really something you check for. Also, the word "notice" implies that there isn't a stick check, the ref might just notice "hey, your pocket is drooping to your knees" or "hey, is that a fiddlestick?".

[eme]

At the Federation rules meeting last January At US Lax convention, the Chair of the Fed. rules committee Ron Belinko and the folks in the audience agreed that the Plunger move would be enforced a la NCAA rules. It is not in the rulebook, but we al took that directive back to our state associations and publicized it. Was not an issue thereafter.

[CTLaxer]

Perhaps this is just me being an old face off guy, but what in the world is the plunger? I can't keep up with all these new terms for the same stuff we face off guys have been doing for years. Anyone care to explain?

[eme]

Plunger:
Old or Young FOGO man clamps ball on the back of his stick down near throat...spreading the sidewalls just a fraction..enough to wrap around the ball, pinch it, so he can lift it directly up from there with ball stuck in back of stick. A quick shake while he is running and the ball is released.

[Snake~eyes]

Well, I've seen instances where all the goals were removed, could be an old rule from when I played that has since been changed.
Well whoever was reffing that game did it wrong, either that or it didn't happen.

Secondly, my state is doing what Eme said, the plunger shall be called witholding the ball from play, I just do waht I'm told.

[LaxRef]

all goals? That's re-durn-diculous. You're only really (in NCAA at least) supposed to get 1 min if the stick was accidently turned illegal (like through checks, or say, a faceoff).

I can't imagine they ever had a rule that took all the goals off the board, since sticks can go illegal during a game. I've seen some that measured just barely legal before the game that were illegal later.

I've never seen a stick called illegal in the time between the goal and the faceoff...it's not really something you check for. Also, the word "notice" implies that there isn't a stick check, the ref might just notice "hey, your pocket is drooping to your knees" or "hey, is that a fiddlestick?".

This is most likely to occur when a coach calls for a stick check after a goal. If the stick is found to be illegal, the goal comes off the board, a penalty is assessed (1:00 or 3:00 NR), and the ball is awarded to the non-offending team (no faceoff).

This only works in regulation. If a goal is scored in OT, the game is over, regardless of whether the stick is legal.

[LaxRef]

You can get called for an illegal stick and have your stick basically taken away for the whole game and any goals you scored would be removed if you cannot fix the problem that is causing the ball to get stuck in your stick (ie pinched too much). I forget the exact rule, but just wait and someone else will cite the exact rule

A stick in which the ball can lodge in the back is NOT illegal unless it fails one of the standard stick tests.

[CTLaxer]

Snake-eyes: it was years and years ago that it happened, so who knows the thinking behind it.

Laxref: I assume that you are correct in that thinking, but it seems a bit counterintuitive to me, care to explain the thinking or ruling behind it for me so I can try to make some sense of it.

[LaxRef]

Laxref: I assume that you are correct in that thinking, but it seems a bit counterintuitive to me, care to explain the thinking or ruling behind it for me so I can try to make some sense of it.

You didn't quote what you're referring to, and I have more than one post in this thread, so I'll have to guess.

The rules describe a procedure for testing a stick. You measure the width of the head, the length of the head, and the length of the stick. You check pocket depth. You make sure it's "relatively straight" in the way they define it. You make sure the ball rolls out in a few prescribed ways. If it passes those tests, it's legal.

Now, if the ball sticks in the back of the stick, it's a turnover according to NCAA rules. Nowhere does it say that you penalize for an illegal stick, it just says to award the ball to the other team. Thus, the stick is not illegal, but getting the ball caught in the back of the stick is illegal (and it's a technical foul, so you just lose possession; no time served).

[CTLaxer]

The second part of your response was what I was refering to so thanks for clearing it up for me. :thumbsup:

[Laxref_36]

The important aspect of the faceoff plunger move is whether or not the ball "sticks" in the crosse. If the ball is in the back of the crosse after the player has trapped the ball between the crosse and the ground, that is legal. If the stick is raised off the ground or moved where the ball would normally dislodge from the back of the crosse, and the ball "sticks" in the crosse, we should have an immediate whistle and a turnover.

My only point here is don't blow the whistle if the ball is not "stuck" in the crosse. Some faceoff men will clamp down on the ball and then "rake" it backwards to a team member. The entire time the ball has to be loose unless you see it stuck in the back of the crosse.

That player must move the ball quickly as they may be guilty of "Withholding the ball from play." You'll see officials on that play yelling: " Move it! ". This play happens not just at the faceoff area, but with goalkeepers who will clamp the ball inside and sometimes outside, the crease. If the clamp occurs outside the crease, the portion of the stick that is outside the crease, can be checked. Any part of the stick that is within the crease cannot be checked and will result in a "play on" goalkeeper interference call.

[LaxRef]

That player must move the ball quickly as they may be guilty of "Withholding the ball from play." You'll see officials on that play yelling: " Move it! ". This play happens not just at the faceoff area, but with goalkeepers who will clamp the ball inside and sometimes outside, the crease. If the clamp occurs outside the crease, the portion of the stick that is outside the crease, can be checked. Any part of the stick that is within the crease cannot be checked and will result in a "play on" goalkeeper interference call.

I agree with this interpretation. However, the rule states that:

c. The crosse of the goalkeeper, but not his body, when extended outside the cylinder above the crease area, is subject to being checked under the same circumstances as the crosse of any other player, except when theball is in the crosse.

This wording admits three possible interpretations:

1) If any part of the crosse is extended outside the crease, then that part may be checked unless there is possession.

2) If any part of the crosse is extended outside the crease, then all of the crosse may be checked unless there is possession.

3) If the entire crosse is extended outside the crease, then all of the crosse may be checked unless there is possession.

As I said, I think you're correct in thinking that they mean (1), but the others are valid interpretations of the (ambiguous) wording.

As for clamping the ball and leaving it clamped, I give them at most 3 seconds to do something with it, which I think is generous considering the rules state:

When a loose ball is on the ground, a player may not lie on the ball, trap it with his crosse longer than is necessary for him to control the ball and pick it up with one continuous motion, or withhold the ball from play in any other manner.