Consolidate the Rules?

[ploaref]

EME,

i know you are on the COC Board, but does that mean that you sit in on MDOC Board meetings too? Why can't the MDOC at least start to explore ways to consolidate the mens/boys lacrosse rulebooks so that they aren't such a hodgepodge of contradictions? Maybe they ARE discussing it, do you know? Is there an MDOC Board meeting agenda you might share with us? Don't see anything on the USL MDOC website...I mean, sure, there are GOING to be some differences in the books, but as is discussed endlessly here on these pages, there are SO many fundamental differences and ommissions from one or the other that we are REALLY putting our officials in a bond out there...particularly the ones that do both levels. We all know that lacrosse coaches main complaint is CONSISTENCY in reffing, but with all these differences, why can't there be a committee formed to at least strive to make the two rulebooks more consistent?? With the National Lacrosse Convention two weeks away in Philly, it seems like a great time to try to get something like this on the agenda. i KNOW the MDOC Board will all be there in Philly...not so sure about the NFHS Rules Committee...but would it be so hard to get them intot he same room to discuss this issue?? Can you help?

[LaxRef]

I agree wholeheartedly! I don't see why there can't just be an appendix in the NCAA listing the rule differences for high school. Keep it to 2 pages max.

In the grand scheme of things, that's going to improve consistency in officiating and lead to better understanding of the rules for fans, players, coaches, and officials at all levels.

[eme]

PLOAREF:
I sent you a private message answer yesterday. I am gathering more info for a public answer...will respond asap.

[eme]

I share all of your frustration with having to deal with 2-3-4 rulebooks. I'd like nothing better than to have just one and not have to write charts detailing the 27 differences between the ncaa and Fed. books and then try to remember the 10 key ones when I jump from a college game to a high-school game. You asked a specific questions that I will try to answer and then I will give my opinion.

1. MDOC meeting is 2pm-7pm Saturday at the Marriott Jan. 15 in Philly. It says 1pm on the schedule, but it is 2pm. The meeting is open. MDOC President Steve Hinchey has promised an agenda by this Thursday. Contact him at laxoid@cox.net. He is sympathetic to the issue and would be glad to raise it.

My opinion:
It is very ironic that NCAA headquarters and NFHS headquarters are in the same town: Indianapolis. The lacrosse rulebooks will never be the same because the rulebooks are drawn up by rules committees who serve different constituencies. The NCAA rules committee is almost entirely coaches and the groups they serve are the players and the coaches and institutions at the college level. They do not write the rules to serve the officials or other lacrosse groups or other age groups. Long-time official Walt Munze serves as an advisor to this group and this has been a real plus for us as officials, but he has no official vote or seat. The NCAA certainly tries to work with US Lacrosse and its officials groups (or other groups) but remember that before US Lacrosse was created in 1998, the NCAA and the USILA (Coaches group) had been running college lacrosse for many years and would continue on in our absence. They write the rules. They hire us to enforce them.

Secondly, the NCAA rules group is not concerned with high-school lacrosse, its officiating, or its rulebooks.

In turn, the NFHS serves high-school boys play, its coaches and the institutions. I quote from the current issue of Referee magazine: "Some officials labor under the misconception that the NFHS intentionally attempts to make their life difficult by having rules that are dissimilar to those of the NCAA or perhaps that NFHS rules are different just to be different. Those officials are wrong. 'We're aware there are differences,' says Marty Struckhoff, NFHS assistant director, 'but in virtually every case we like our rule better for the constituency we're serving.'...the NFHS governs athletes who are essentially children means that NFHS rules will always have some differences from higher levels." As with the NCAA, the NFHS tries to cooperate with US Lacrosse when it can (see US Lacrosse Youth rules in the back of 2005 NFHS Rulebook), but the NFHS will carry on with or without a lacrosse national governing body. US Lacrosse officials committees, in short, have no say or power over either the NCAA rules committee or the NFHS rules coimmittee.

Whew. That's a long way around the barn to give you an answer you didn't want to hear. I guess you can take solace in a few things. Beginning high-school officials shouldn't get confused over ncaa/fed rules differences because 95% of the time they deal with only one rulebook. Here in Vermont we have 40 total hs refs, six of whom do college ball as well. That's 36 refs who don't have to worry about differences unless a high-school team plays a prep school team (who usually follow ncaa rules in New England) and that's rare. Other sports are in the same boat as we are.

[LaxRef]

"Some officials labor under the misconception that the NFHS intentionally attempts to make their life difficult by having rules that are dissimilar to those of the NCAA or perhaps that NFHS rules are different just to be different. Those officials are wrong. 'We're aware there are differences,' says Marty Struckhoff, NFHS assistant director, 'but in virtually every case we like our rule better for the constituency we're serving.'...the NFHS governs athletes who are essentially children means that NFHS rules will always have some differences from higher levels.

This explanation only goes so far. For example, it explains why the mouthpiece violation is a personal foul under NFHS and a technical under NCAA. It does not, however, explain the differences in the coin toss options between the two codes or a lot of the other differences. It also doesn't explain why the NFHS feels the need to describe what constitutes a legal cleat in such detail that you'd need a metallurgist to check a pair of cleats for legality :chuckle:

Clearly, the NCAA and the NFHS don't care what the other one is doing, and neither cares about making life easier for the officials, which is too bad, because I think our job is hard enough already.

[shrekjr]

Here in Vermont we have 40 total hs refs, six of whom do college ball as well. That's 36 refs who don't have to worry about differences...

Good thing you're an official and not a math teacher! :imparied:

By the way, I like your chart.

[ploaref]

i DO see your points, EE, but i also tend to agree with Laxref insofar as, if you look down the list of differences, MANY of them could just simply be eliminated if the two groups could just sit down together and coordinate a little bit.

Whats to keep USL from eventually publishing a consolidated rulebook, one for ALL levels of mens play, like the women's side does? With NCAA, NFHS and Youth reps in a group to accomplish such a thing, it might someday happen. i won't hold my breath!

[eme]

Whats to keep USL from eventually publishing a consolidated rulebook, one for ALL levels of mens play, like the women's side does? With NCAA, NFHS and Youth reps in a group to accomplish such a thing, it might someday happen. i won't hold my breath![/QUOTE]

Please don't hold your breath. Good assignors are hard to come by. US Lacrosse could write anything it wants, but NCAA games will be officiated by refs using the NCAA rulebook. Federation games will be officiated by refs using the NFHS book. In short, USL has no power here. It's a bit like AAA trying to tell General Motors how to make cars.

[Snake~eyes]

Whats to keep USL from eventually publishing a consolidated rulebook, one for ALL levels of mens play, like the women's side does? With NCAA, NFHS and Youth reps in a group to accomplish such a thing, it might someday happen. i won't hold my breath!

Please don't hold your breath. Good assignors are hard to come by. US Lacrosse could write anything it wants, but NCAA games will be officiated by refs using the NCAA rulebook. Federation games will be officiated by refs using the NFHS book. In short, USL has no power here. It's a bit like AAA trying to tell General Motors how to make cars.[/QUOTE]
Sounds good to me.
Look at football, we have three codes for football. NFHS, NCAA and NFL. Look at basketball, we have three codes for it: NFHS, NCAA and NBA. I know of officials who work both NCAA and NFHS for basketball and football. There are many many more differences in football than lacrosse. Just be happy its not worse than it is.

[TheKOB]

I guess the problem is that it seems that lacrosse doesn't have the officials it needs, unlike (I assume at least) football does. Lacrosse teams are way cheaper to start up and run than football teams, and only require about half as many players. Also, football's growth is pretty stagnent (obviously) while lacrosse is speeding up constantly.

I guess since supply isn't anywhere near demand, we might as well try to make it easier on those who supply our sport.

On an aside from an outsider's perspective, it seems like NFHS rules usually follow NCAA a few years later. NCAA seems to be on the ball with changing their rules to make it easier, while NFHS seems to be more conservative. Is this the case?

[Snake~eyes]

I guess the problem is that it seems that lacrosse doesn't have the officials it needs, unlike (I assume at least) football does. Lacrosse teams are way cheaper to start up and run than football teams, and only require about half as many players. Also, football's growth is pretty stagnent (obviously) while lacrosse is speeding up constantly.
You are incorrect in your assumption. There is a shortage of officials in every sport. Bad sportsmanship on the rise and parents/fans harassing officials causes very few people wanting to take the role. What is so great about going out on the floor/field and getting paid a couple bucks to be harassed by idiots who think they know what they're talking about? Often hear of stories of officials being assaulted and/or confronted by people after games. It is ridiculous, this is the major problem why there is a shortage, atleast IMO. Recruiting rates aren't bad but retention is. Officials are the most underappreciated yet most needed people in sports. The only time officials get noticed is when we make a bad call(or an assumed bad call because fans don't know the rules). Stupid fans and parents are causing officials numbers to dwindle. I know that there is a need for officials in probaly every sport, especially football.

[TheKOB]

I guess I figured that since football already has their teams set up, they're better equipped to deal with the problem. With us, adding new teams every year, we have the problem of expanding and finding quality officials plus the normal problems with supplying officials to the existing teams. Basically, I'm thinking the problem is compounded by our rapid growth.

Maybe if every ref was as buff as that 60 yo NFL guy (who looks like he's posing for a calander every time he makes a call) then there wouldn't be so much of a problem with irate fans.

It is inexcusable though. I was drafted into reffing a game where the other team had forgotten to get refs....I was actually heckled by one of the opposing teams parents. First, I don't have stripes on me. Second, in SC, it's rare that you'll come across someone at a first year program that has a clue what they're talking about. Third, I was bigger than the moron. One glance with my patented "you're kidding me, I'm a volunteer and twice your size...I could care less" was enough, but I know it's gotta be much rougher on actual refs.