Guns

[shocker]

I just realized today the number of kids I know who have guns. I'm not just talking about for hunting, I mean straight handguns. Is this just my school or do other people see this too?

[OutBurst]

Hmm, that is illegal buddy. People under 21 cannot own handguns nor can they receive a concealed weapons permit.

[bayhawkslax216]

i don't know many, but there is alot of talk about it.

[shocker]

Hmm, that is illegal buddy. People under 21 cannot own handguns nor can they receive a concealed weapons permit.

I don't know what your trying to get at. Just because its illegal doesn't mean it can't occur. It is possible for those under 21 to have a handgun, just as it is possible for someone under 21 to drink.

[OutBurst]

So you support your friends owning something that is illegal for them to own? Great friend you are. Why in the world would they need a handgun? Answer me that Mr. Circumstantial.

[WestSideLa X eR]

well he did say "kids I know"
This could be random kids he knows that have handguns.

A kid was shot in our town with a shotgun. His attacker (same age) then turned himself in. Why people need to hunt with shotguns, i dont know

[OutBurst]

Shotguns are more effective than handguns. I hunt pheasant with a 16 guage Remington Model 870 pump which seems to kill them pretty well.

[shocker]

I believe I said I knew them, not everyone I know is my friend. As it truns out one of the kids is a friend of mine, not a good one, but still a friend. Also I'd appreciate it if you'd show me where I said I supported their ownership of these guns. I believe it is completely unnecessary, guns only bread violence.

[OutBurst]

I am not seeing you going to the cops and getting these handguns away from your "friends" or acquaintances. Your reluctance to do such a thing is a sign of your approval of such events.

[Fartman]

guns are fun. i love target and trap shooting. you just can't be a crazy psyco nra-loving gun nut.

[OutBurst]

The NRA is messed up although I am a life-member.

[laxtime24]

No body has hand guns at my school. Theirs not really alot of shootings where i am from (canada)

[OutBurst]

Must not be many English classes either...

[Longest]

So you support your friends owning something that is illegal for them to own? Great friend you are. Why in the world would they need a handgun? Answer me that Mr. Circumstantial.

I would support my friends. I like the implied jab though. As for reasons: Maybe they're learning to shoot recreationally. Maybe it's for protection. Maybe they like guns. Maybe it's for target shooting. Since you don't know the reason, it's somewhat hard for you to castigate them I think.

Dan

[Longest]

I believe it is completely unnecessary, guns only bread violence.

Unfounded. Prove it.

Dan

[lacrossefreak]

alot of my friends have guns.... you can go to harlem on a saterday night and pick one up on a street corner for 150 bucks... i wouldnt go cause im white but you can get em

[shocker]

Do you go to the cops everytime you see someone smoking grass or drinking? Both of those can be extremely harming. On another note, I can't see what shooting a pheasant with a shotgun can prove. Or any type of hunting. Now tracking down an animal and killing it with your bare hands, thats a little different.

[shocker]

Unfounded. Prove it.

Dan

Indeed it was unfounded. Its more of my opinion. My thinking is that guns in the hands of youths who don't have fully developed brains cannot be a good thing. Especially when those who are carrying the guns are in fights about girls, money, etc. In Philadelphia a 16 year old shot an 18 year old over a girl. I just don't see what good can come out of a situation in which a 16 year old owns a handgun.

[FPlaxer]

well he did say "kids I know"
This could be random kids he knows that have handguns.

A kid was shot in our town with a shotgun. His attacker (same age) then turned himself in. Why people need to hunt with shotguns, i dont know

in our county you can only use shotgun (buckshot only) or muzzleloader. soooo...

[OutBurst]

Indeed it was unfounded. Its more of my opinion. My thinking is that guns in the hands of youths who don't have fully developed brains cannot be a good thing. Especially when those who are carrying the guns are in fights about girls, money, etc. In Philadelphia a 16 year old shot an 18 year old over a girl. I just don't see what good can come out of a situation in which a 16 year old owns a handgun.


If I had the knowledge that someone owned a handgun that was not for recreational use, I would most certainly tell someone. I am an intelligent gun-owner and do not feel as though guns should be in the hands of unstable beings.

The shotgun deal was directed towards Westsidelaxer because he asked why people hunted with shotguns.

Longest: You bring up good points which I clarified in my first statement of this post.

[Longest]

Indeed it was unfounded. Its more of my opinion. My thinking is that guns in the hands of youths who don't have fully developed brains cannot be a good thing. Especially when those who are carrying the guns are in fights about girls, money, etc. In Philadelphia a 16 year old shot an 18 year old over a girl. I just don't see what good can come out of a situation in which a 16 year old owns a handgun.

I"m not saying kids should be toting guns around. But 18 is the adult age for everything else (except drinking which I again disagree with), should be the same, in reference to the law cited by Outburst. In your case though, there is a possible fallacy. There's nothing that says lack of gun ownership prevents violence, the other person in your example would probably still be harmed. And what if the victim had a gun and was trained in self-defense? You have forgotten the number of deaths averted each year by self-defense gun use.

Dan

[Longest]

If I had the knowledge that someone owned a handgun that was not for recreational use, I would most certainly tell someone. I am an intelligent gun-owner and do not feel as though guns should be in the hands of unstable beings.

The shotgun deal was directed towards Westsidelaxer because he asked why people hunted with shotguns.

Longest: You bring up good points which I clarified in my first statement of this post.

What if the instability is undetectable? I mean it's easy to see now after the fact that the attacker was unstable. But we don't always knowing that going forward.

Dan

[zak]

I am not seeing you going to the cops and getting these handguns away from your "friends" or acquaintances. Your reluctance to do such a thing is a sign of your approval of such events.

And you would turn them in?

[OutBurst]

And you would turn them in?

Yes, I would turn them in without hesistation. I have seen what guns can do to people when in the wrong hands and it isn't the prettiest thing in the world.

[OutBurst]

What if the instability is undetectable? I mean it's easy to see now after the fact that the attacker was unstable. But we don't always knowing that going forward.

Dan

I will agree that the instability or insanity could be undetectable by a regular person. We still must take into account that this is about someone under-age owning a handgun.

Now, if it were a legal instable person owning a gun there isn't much I can do. I would say that if the gun was to be purchased from a reputable and self-respected gun shop, then the clerk or owner wouldn't sell to such a person. Just my opinion though.

[senor_k]

I shoot BB guns and Airsoft guns all the time. And my bow. Shooting stuff rocks.

[26Easy]

I don't know any of my friends who have guns for things other then hunting.I do know some of my older brothers friends who have ak47 and other assualt rifles like that.I know they go to shooting ranges to shoot them but I don't know if they use them for anything else.Don't say I support them having guns because I bearly know these kids.

[WestSideLa X eR]

Shotguns are more effective than handguns. I hunt pheasant with a 16 guage Remington Model 870 pump which seems to kill them pretty well.

A rifle? Dont know much about guns, but shooting a peasant with a shotgun is like cutting a hang nail with a sword to me

[senor_k]

Well, those peasants are tricky. You have to watch out for their pitchforks. (In case you didn't get it, you wrote "peasant," instead of "pheasant.")

[wayzatalax2008]

i know some kids with colts and tech nines. but then again we got some messed up stuff in our school. im only a freshmen in high school and two chicks in my grade are pregnant. so im not sure if our school fits into the normal category

[zak]

i know some kids with colts and tech nines. but then again we got some messed up stuff in our school. im only a freshmen in high school and two chicks in my grade are pregnant. so im not sure if our school fits into the normal category
Nope, everyones got at least a couple pregnant people in their grade. At least from what i hear.

[wayzatalax2008]

yeah but theyre both barely 14...

[senor_k]

Unless you happen to go to a school with a really small class. Or a school where the students are very religious.

[OutBurst]

Or a school where the students are very religious.


BURN! That was good.

[OutBurst]

A rifle? Dont know much about guns, but shooting a peasant with a shotgun is like cutting a hang nail with a sword to me

It is easier to aim with a rifle because of the shoulder stock. Overkill would be using a 10 guage. 16 guages are perfect for small birds (turkeys, pheasants, etc.) because of its medium capacity shell. There isn't too much power behind the pellets so the bird stays as intact as possible while still killing it.

Sure, I could hunt with .22 but I couldn't kill a bird with one.

[alex001]

airsoft rocks

[yeti19]

When i saw Bowling for Columbine by Michae Moore for the first time i was astonished by the levels of gun usage in the states. In Britain you are not allowed to carry weapons with you, for example if you are caught with a concealed knife over 3 inches long you can be sent to jail for 2 years.

I think this is right as you should have no need for a knife bigger than that other than cooking.

I know it is different over in the states and that it is more dangerous, but the people who own guns for protection, if they try to use it on an attacker it is more likely that they will be shot by their own gun than they will shoot their attacker! Maybe a gun which isn't loaded would be a better idea for protection IMO.

I have no need for a gun, have only ever fired wone shooting clay pigeons and have no desire to own one, in my opinion it doesn't make you hard, cool or clever.

[TheKOB]

When i saw Bowling for Columbine by Michae Moore for the first time i was astonished by the levels of gun usage in the states. In Britain you are not allowed to carry weapons with you, for example if you are caught with a concealed knife over 3 inches long you can be sent to jail for 2 years.

I think this is right as you should have no need for a knife bigger than that other than cooking.

I know it is different over in the states and that it is more dangerous, but the people who own guns for protection, if they try to use it on an attacker it is more likely that they will be shot by their own gun than they will shoot their attacker! Maybe a gun which isn't loaded would be a better idea for protection IMO.

I have no need for a gun, have only ever fired wone shooting clay pigeons and have no desire to own one, in my opinion it doesn't make you hard, cool or clever.

Please take into consideration that Michael Moore is anything but someone who tells the truth. His film is as much of a documentory as the supermarket tabloids are newspapers.

[Longest]

When i saw Bowling for Columbine by Michae Moore for the first time i was astonished by the levels of gun usage in the states. In Britain you are not allowed to carry weapons with you, for example if you are caught with a concealed knife over 3 inches long you can be sent to jail for 2 years.

I think this is right as you should have no need for a knife bigger than that other than cooking.

I know it is different over in the states and that it is more dangerous, but the people who own guns for protection, if they try to use it on an attacker it is more likely that they will be shot by their own gun than they will shoot their attacker! Maybe a gun which isn't loaded would be a better idea for protection IMO.

I have no need for a gun, have only ever fired wone shooting clay pigeons and have no desire to own one, in my opinion it doesn't make you hard, cool or clever.

As Kevin said, get your facts from somewhere legitimate, not a propagandist.

Dan

[SDS416]

Hell, guns don't kill people...people kill people. But for many its just easier to blame the gun than it is to place the blame where it belongs...the person who used it.

[OutBurst]

And the National Rifle Association says that, "Guns don't kill people, people do,” but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, "Bang!" That's not going to kill too many people, is it?

[Longest]

And the National Rifle Association says that, "Guns don't kill people, people do,” but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, "Bang!" That's not going to kill too many people, is it?

I've never heard someone who admitted to owning a gun speak so negatively about gun ownership. It's fine for you, why not everyone else?

Dan

[OutBurst]

That is a quote from Eddie Izzard in one of his/her standup comedies.

[Longest]

Well thank the good Lord, I was getting worried about your schizophrenia :-)

Dan

[OutBurst]

Haha. No need to worry about me, myself, and my gun. Just no need.

[hseXlax]

well there is really nothing anyone can do about this gun thing because if someone wants to buy a gun and is under 21 they will find away to get it. just like if some one wants to buy some weed even though its illegal they will get it.

[Longest]

well there is really nothing anyone can do about this gun thing because if someone wants to buy a gun and is under 21 they will find away to get it. just like if some one wants to buy some weed even though its illegal they will get it.

That, in itself, is not a convincing argument for inaction.

Dan

[Laxman3]

I am a proud hunter who is also a member of the NRA. This isn't exact nubbers but when Florida passed the concealed carry permit the crime that ivaolved guns went down 80%. The criminals were too afraid that the victim would actually be able to defend themself. If guns were taken away the criminals would still get/have them somehow and it would be like taking candy from a baby if they tried to commit a crime against someone. And handguns are used to hunt with. Not as much as rifles or shotguns but they still are used. Aren't guns outlawed in Canada and Australia?

[Longest]

I am a proud hunter who is also a member of the NRA. This isn't exact nubbers but when Florida passed the concealed carry permit the crime that ivaolved guns went down 80%. The criminals were too afraid that the victim would actually be able to defend themself. If guns were taken away the criminals would still get/have them somehow and it would be like taking candy from a baby if they tried to commit a crime against someone. And handguns are used to hunt with. Not as much as rifles or shotguns but they still are used. Aren't guns outlawed in Canada and Australia?

Study in 2003
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570

In addition to Canada and Australia, throw Great Britain in there.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/firearms/control.html
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2003/pd120503e.html

John Lott is a recognized authority on the gun control issue.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/NationalPost61504.html

Dan

[OutBurst]

Damn Dan, you are most definitely going to create the bibliography of my next essay.

[FPlaxer]

heres a thread on this from a while back on this subject w/ poll

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=11844&highlight=gun+control

A rifle? Dont know much about guns, but shooting a peasant with a shotgun is like cutting a hang nail with a sword to me

unless you shoot it point blank (which unless its a perfectly trained bird it aint goin to happen) youll be lucky to get 4 bb's in it. Just think of clay pigions (those little orange disks)

Finally as a proud member of the NRA and having aquintances with sereval high ranking officers within the orginzation I going to have to say that Gun control is the worst idea ever. Example when England imposed gun control within the UK its murder rate rose (including gun violence) while the US maintaining its laws allowing guns violence actually lowered.

[OutBurst]

That is also true. The spread of shotgun cartridges are very large and are meant to hit moving objects.

[RockStar]

....Maybe a gun which isn't loaded would be a better idea for protection IMO.


I am not pro gun, per say. I certainly believe in the rights of responsible adults to own long guns and hand guns (not assault rifles....want that? join the army!).

I also believe in tight regulation of the sale of guns and ammo, and requiring that all guns be registered*.

However, aiming an unloaded gun at an assailant cannot be a wise move! Rule 1 of gun safety is - do not point at anything you don't want to destroy.
So, defend yourself with an alternate weapon if you're not prepared to shoot.

(*Yes, I know that criminals don't register their guns. I still think registry is a good idea for several reasons)

[RockStar]

....Not as much as rifles or shotguns but they still are used. Aren't guns outlawed in Canada and Australia?

Certainly not in Canada. We actually have more guns per capita than you do.

The difference is that the vast majority of our guns are rifles and shotguns.

We're not really big on handguns here. Of that, I'm sort of glad. Handguns are really only useful as a murder weapon.

[RockStar]

....Finally as a proud member of the NRA and having aquintances with sereval high ranking officers within the orginzation I going to have to say that Gun control is the worst idea ever. ....

Earlier in this thread, another wise man said something about not listening to propogandists.

Careful who you believe, the truth is probably actually somewhere between the NRA's version and Michael Moore's.

[RockStar]

Study in 2003
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570

In addition to Canada and Australia, throw Great Britain in there.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/firearms/control.html
http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2003/pd120503e.html

John Lott is a recognized authority on the gun control issue.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/NationalPost61504.html

Dan

What those studies failed to indicate is that Canada's rate of violent crime was, and still is, considerably lower to begin with.

I'll agree with the studies that show that the rate is increasing in recent years, but it'll still be a while before we catch to the US up in terms of shootings/robberies/murders per capita.

[Longest]

What those studies failed to indicate is that Canada's rate of violent crime was, and still is, considerably lower to begin with.

I'll agree with the studies that show that the rate is increasing in recent years, but it'll still be a while before we catch to the US up in terms of shootings/robberies/murders per capita.

What they're demonstrating is the trend, not the figure, I believe.

Dan

[digger]

I enjoyed shooting with pistols, rifles and naval guns while serving in the navy, yet I don't live in a situation where I'd need them at home. German gun laws are very strict, you can only have a gun if you are in a club and do shooting in a club as sport, but then it is still illegal to carry it around with you. So the only people on the streets with guns are police men and some criminals I presume and apart from the second group I think it's good. There isn't less crime in Germany compared to other western industrial states, but less people are killed.

[OutBurst]

That's because Germany has already done enough killing to last them a long while...

[Longest]

Here are some master statistics.

Total crime per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap
Summary:
UK: 86/1000
US: 82/1000
Canada: 77/1000
Germany: 76/1000

Murders per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
Summary:
US: 0.04 per 1000
Canada: 0.01 per 1000
UK: 0.01 per 1000
Germany: 0.01 per 1000

Assaults per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_***_cap
Summary:
US: 7.7/1000
UK: 7.5/1000
Canada: 7.25/1000
Germany: 1.41/1000

Note the above say nothing about trends in those countries, just the figures. Trends are in some ways more important at knowing what the real situation is in the country.

Decent article, good footnotes.
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=7862&mode=print

Dan

[OutBurst]

In case people do no know, in order to get the third link given by Dan to work you must change the *'s to the three-letter bad word for butt.

Good information there man. I especially apprecitated the last article about crime rates in UK vs. the US.

[RockStar]

Good website.

Murders with firearms:

US - 8,259, or 0.02 per 1,000 capita

Canada - 165, or 0.0055 per 1,000 capita.

Gun control doesn't work, EH :agree: ?

More restrictions on firearm sales means fewer guns in the wrong hands means less gun crime.

And hey, gun crime is usually the worst kind of crime if you're a victim!

Don't want to sound high and mighty, but I like Canada's balance. If I want a gun, I can get one. Our regulators are just more careful about who they allow to purchase guns here.

[Longest]

Good website.

Murders with firearms:

US - 8,259, or 0.02 per 1,000 capita

Canada - 165, or 0.0055 per 1,000 capita.

Gun control doesn't work, EH :agree: ?

More restrictions on firearm sales means fewer guns in the wrong hands means less gun crime.

And hey, gun crime is usually the worst kind of crime if you're a victim!

Don't want to sound high and mighty, but I like Canada's balance. If I want a gun, I can get one. Our regulators are just more careful about who they allow to purchase guns here.

What about
http://www.fathersforlife.org/articles/gunter/zero_impact.htm

To summarize, 151 murders before the gun control registry, 149 murder the year after. Expensive, multi-million dollar intrustion for 2 less murders by firearms. He goes on to say that overall murders went up after the registry.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/Article9.htm
http://web7.www.nexopia.com/article.php?id=5597
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/fraser/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=454

I remain unconvinced and would prefer to take my chances with my own guns and my own tax monies.

Dan

[Super Fast Mid]

Theres absolutely(sp) nothing wrong with guns. If guns were never invented people would just find something else to accomplish the tasks we do today. Remember guns weren't always apart of our history but people still found a way to hunt and kill other people. If anything it just accomplishing certain tasks easier. There's 2 rifles and a shotgun in my house that we use for hunting and never has it crossed my mind to take it out and shoot some one. Maybe it is the people that are dangerous not the guns.

[Longest]

There's 2 rifles and a shotgun in my house that we use for hunting and never has it crossed my mind to take it out and shoot some one. Maybe it is the people that are dangerous not the guns.

Unfortunately not everyone reaches the same conclusions you do about not using the guns to kill others but I agree wholeheartedly with the people being the more dangerous.

Dan

[Super Fast Mid]

yea i was just trying to get the point across that you dont need guns to people. Theres alot of other ways to do it.

[stxbionic42]

I shoot BB guns and Airsoft guns all the time. And my bow. Shooting stuff rocks.

airsoft guns are the best if u get the good kind. i like bb guns. but only for like targets.

[L J]

I just realized today the number of kids I know who have guns. I'm not just talking about for hunting, I mean straight handguns. Is this just my school or do other people see this too?
Guns are very attractive for teenagers. I remember, when I was 12 year old, I dreamt about some shooting device. But how could I get it - it's illegal? I had no other way than to do it by myself. My first handgun was created on the base of airgun - I drilled the back part of the barrel for placing a cartridge, equipped the piston with the striker and made some other modifications. It really worked - the bullets breached 1mm pieces of steel from 25 m range - it was really cool! When I reached the age of 18, I got the legal rights to buy the shotgun. The pump-action shotgun was my first purchase after my 18-y birthday :thumbsup: :guns:

[HdGLaxWarrior]

I have a shotgun primarily used for hunting... but if some idiot deciedes to break into my house...

[zak]

I think everyone should get a gun. It would be mandatory. That way you can shoot anyone who commits a violent crime with a gun.

[HdGLaxWarrior]

And the National Rifle Association says that, "Guns don't kill people, people do,” but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, "Bang!" That's not going to kill too many people, is it?

No... guns were created for different reasons than killing humans... like hunting. Guns dont kill people, stupid people kill people...

[greenturtle]

bro thats the biggest load ive heard...i go to harlem all the time n ive never seen a street vendor selling guns...also im white...n yeaa me n my friends do get alotta **** but we're irish n we juss **** those monkeys up...n we carry guns aswell

[zak]

bro thats the biggest load ive heard...i go to harlem all the time n ive never seen a street vendor selling guns...also im white...n yeaa me n my friends do get alotta **** but we're irish n we juss **** those monkeys up...n we carry guns aswell

Im not even sure if I'm confused yet... thats how confused I am. There are no Irish people in Harlem. Wanna clarify on that one buddy.

[big beans]

No... guns were created for different reasons than killing humans... like hunting. Guns dont kill people, stupid people kill people...

Actually guns were created with the sole purpose of killing people. In mideval(sp?) Europe guns came about, with the advent of gun powder coming from the east, in the form of hand cannons in order to kill people in war more effectively than the bow. Of course Europeans improved on the original designs and eventually employed them in hunting, but they were originally created for killing.

[HdGLaxWarrior]

Yeah most rifles are used mainly for deer hunting, you cant hit a duck was a rifle...

[HdGLaxWarrior]

Actually guns were created with the sole purpose of killing people. In mideval(sp?) Europe guns came about, with the advent of gun powder coming from the east, in the form of hand cannons in order to kill people in war more effectively than the bow. Of course Europeans improved on the original designs and eventually employed them in hunting, but they were originally created for killing.

No... personnal protection...

[ex-lax]

I"m not saying kids should be toting guns around. But 18 is the adult age for everything else (except drinking which I again disagree with), should be the same, in reference to the law cited by Outburst. In your case though, there is a possible fallacy. There's nothing that says lack of gun ownership prevents violence, the other person in your example would probably still be harmed. And what if the victim had a gun and was trained in self-defense? You have forgotten the number of deaths averted each year by self-defense gun use.

Dan
i dont own a gun and im not dead