POLITICS: Children's Suffrage

[Thrillhouse]

The majority of posters on this forum are under the age of 18 and therefore not able to vote. Is that right? Our national government is spending more money then it is taking in right now, creating debts that you will have to pay for. A lot of you work in jobs which require you to pay taxes. We are also talking about a social security system that might not be able to pay the benefits to you when you retire. Shouldn’t you have a say in the decisions that are being made right now?

Here’s an good site on the issue. They have a links page that has even more sites on the issue.
http://www.brown.edu/Students/Association_for_Childrens_Suffrage/

Just to come clean, this was on the West Wing last night.

[roughrider]

Though I feel I could make an informed decision, I do not think my peers could. I think dropping the voting age would just end up something like an exstension of their parents votes. Many young people do not understand politics and are swayed by the politics of their given household. What it all boils down to is I do not feel my generation, as a whole, has the intelect yet, or the individualism to make thier own informed decisions.

[Frndlefire]

I also think that lowering the voting age is a bad idea. Until a certain point children just parrot their parents ideals and positions. To a certain extent children have not been exposed to enough alternate positions to make up their own mind. I mean, if we feel they cannot responsibly think for themselves in regards to drinking, tobacco, and sex why would they be able to make a responsible decision that would effect the course of our nation.

[TheKOB]

Though I feel I could make an informed decision, I do not think my peers could. I think dropping the voting age would just end up something like an exstension of their parents votes. Many young people do not understand politics and are swayed by the politics of their given household.

How does this change at age 18, 19, 30, etc?

A good many voters are swayed easily by their friends, and/or don't look at the facts.

[jedimasterPIMP]

I beielve that I could make a good decision when it comes to voting, but the kid at my lunch table who snorts doritos for money can't. It's not only him though, I feel that a majority of my friends wouldn't be able to make a decision. Like roughrider said, if you gave us the right to vote I know many people who would just vote the way their mom or dad voted. The bottom line is that some kids can't think for themselves, so lowing the voting age is a good idea in theroy, but it wouldn't work.

[CHSgoalie3]

I look at the jackasses that laugh at me because I play lacrosse. Then, I laugh at them because they do drugs and are flunking out of high school. Moral of the story? Kill all the idiots. Then, we could have lower voting age.

[The Chariot]

There is no possible way. Looking at the population at my school, I shudder at the thought of THEM making such decisions. Of course I'm smarter than some 30 year olds, but thats an exception. For the most part, NO.

Overall, America is dumb as hell anyway. Thats why we have Social Security.

[zak]

I think dropping the voting age would just end up something like an exstension of their parents votes. Many young people do not understand politics and are swayed by the politics of their given household.

Think? Thats pretty much 100% true. The vast majority of people have taken ont he pollitical party of their parent by 11, switch it in college, and then possibly again when they have a family.

To chagne the vote to 18 would mean all other "adult" responsibilities would shift to that age. Death penalty. Full drivers. Age of consent. etc... I dont think that 18 has too much to do with physical or mental issue (see link in longests thread.) Its more all that stuff comes at 18 as a package deal.

[Thrillhouse]

So despite the fact that you guys think you have the intellect to vote, it’s OK to discriminate against you because other people your age don’t?
Last November 2nd, your opinion didn’t matter; I’m really surprised you’re all OK with that.

[Frndlefire]

Well my vote counted, i guess, last november... but personally, while I do not doubt there are many individuals under the age of 18 who know politics and are able to make a logical and responcible decision, I also know from my personal experience that most dont. I dont think this changes at 18, however at 18 most kids are moving out of their parents' houses for college and so would be exposed to more positions and ideas that they were previously unintroduced to. It seems, again in my opinion, that people tend to examine their stances once in college and not directly influenced by their parents. People tend to become more politically active in college and so I believe there is a greater chance of making a thoughtful, responcible decision rather than just parroting their parent's ideals. And when you really think about it, your individual vote at 16 (if they were to lower the voting age) really only means so much. You could probably have a greater impact working on a campaign or rallying if you are so concerned about the choices that are being made.

[Thrillhouse]

Besides the fact that not everyone goes to college after high school, I have to point out that college professors are notoriously liberal. The argument could be made that you don’t want to give kids the chance to vote until they go to college so they can be indoctrinated. Since when is not being exposed to enough ideas a reason to deprive a citizen the right to vote?

I just don’t buy this “voting with their parents” argument either. So what if they vote like their parents do? Their parents did a better job convincing them then anyone else did. I don’t buy that these issues aren’t discussed in schools. (And while we’re on the subject of schools, doesn’t it seem unfair that for all the money that is being used for education in this country, minors don’t get a say on how the money being used for them is spent?)
The same argument could be made for the elderly in this country. I’m sure some of them can still make informed decisions, but a lot of them suffer from medical problems effecting their memory and ability to reason. Besides, most of them just vote like the AARP tells them to. Why do they get to vote, but not young people?

[Longest]

I just don’t buy this “voting with their parents” argument either. So what if they vote like their parents do? Their parents did a better job convincing them then anyone else did. I don’t buy that these issues aren’t discussed in schools. (And while we’re on the subject of schools, doesn’t it seem unfair that for all the money that is being used for education in this country, minors don’t get a say on how the money being used for them is spent?)
The same argument could be made for the elderly in this country. I’m sure some of them can still make informed decisions, but a lot of them suffer from medical problems effecting their memory and ability to reason. Besides, most of them just vote like the AARP tells them to. Why do they get to vote, but not young people?

Can you support yourself at 14 should you so choose? Or 15? Only in rare, rare, rare instances. It's not until 16 or 18 in most states when you no longer need employment licenses and are forced to work restricted hours. At least at 18, based on current (however odious) employment law, it is assumed you are responsible for yourself. If your parents want to fling you out, that's their perogative. Prior to that, they're somewhat stuck with you. So if we want to move the voting age younger, we must move younger the age at which we think people can be somewhat responsible for their own self. And I still think this is only a debate for federal elections. Whatever each individual state wants to do for its elections is pretty much fine with me.

Dan

[BuckWyld]

Besides the fact that not everyone goes to college after high school, I have to point out that college professors are notoriously liberal. The argument could be made that you don’t want to give kids the chance to vote until they go to college so they can be indoctrinated. Since when is not being exposed to enough ideas a reason to deprive a citizen the right to vote?



you could make that argument, but people would laugh at you for it. The fact is that you need to draw a line somewhere, allowing 2 year-olds the right to vote would be wrong, not only because two year olds can not possibly grasp the idea and you would be giving a defacto extra vote to parents. Now why is the age 18 instead of 17, no good reason execpt that is the age that our society has decided a person becomes an adult.

[Frndlefire]

Besides the fact that not everyone goes to college after high school, I have to point out that college professors are notoriously liberal. The argument could be made that you don’t want to give kids the chance to vote until they go to college so they can be indoctrinated. Since when is not being exposed to enough ideas a reason to deprive a citizen the right to vote? You seem to be confused, Thrill. Never did I say that going to college was why children mature and have more thoughtful position, but rather that moving out their parent's home has this effect. College was my example of a common time when children move out. Also, please forgive me for being so pompous and stipulating that all children go to college after highschool http://www.mscclan.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Also, if you tell me who to vote for what is the value of my vote? I would say very little. I have put no thought into it or weighed how that vote effects me, I am merely the one casting it. This is, in effect, how I see children voting. Many, dare I say most?, children will just vote how their parents vote regardless of what they support. I am not saying this is bad, I'm just saying that it doesn't really accomplish what I feel voting is intended to.

[Frndlefire]

And why do we draw the line for other things? Surely someone below the age of 18 has the ability to smoke cigarrettes. Surely an 18-year-old has the ability to responcibly consume alcohol. A fifteen year old could pick up a gun and fight in our War Against ____ (insert current popular fight). Children can have sex before legal ages of consent. However, with all these examples there are lines drawn for a reason. One can fight and dismiss the reasons that these lines are drawn...but that doesn't mean that there are no reasons the rules are this way.

[tekz]

If a person can drive a car that can become a potential weapon at 16, why can't they vote?

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

I really think lowering the voting age is a really bad idea. during the elections i tried to talk to a few kids in high school about the elections. One girl told me she would vote for Bush because he "fixed the mess that Clinton made". I then, of course, responded with "what mess did clinton make?" She couldnt give me an answer. After a while I realized she thought this way because her parents disliked clinton for one reason or another and love bush. She couldn't give me one policy she liked or disliked about bush or kerry. she would have just extended her parents' votes, as someone already said. Another kid told me that "kerry is the man" and then rattled off a list of bands who support kerry. again, he couldn't really give me any policies. he just said, "the war in Iraq is wrong." But, he couldn't give me any educated response. And, many kids where i went to high school would never admit that they would vote democrat, seeing as how about 90% of the county is republican. They would have voted democrat just to fit in, because that's what kids in high school do... they try to fit in.

This is why those under 18 shouldn't be allowed to vote. I, personall, never paid attention to much news until I turned 18. You know why?... because most of the laws created in America don't affect me until I turn 18. And that's the attitude most kids have. they don't care about the issues because the issues don't affect them. I used to see my brother watching CNN and Fox News constantly, and I would be disgusted at how he would just sit there all day and watch the news. but, now that i am majorly affected by what happens in government, i find myself doing the same thing, constantly picking up the paper, or going online to catch up with the latest news in the world.

I think it's dangerous to let those who are under 18 vote when they can be so easily swayed by what their parents say or by what their favorite band at the time says. I know I wouldnt have let myself vote when i was in high school.

[TheKOB]

sike.........real message below. I'm trying to catch up to raine with regards to post count...

[TheKOB]

I really think lowering the voting age is a really bad idea. during the elections i tried to talk to a few kids in high school about the elections. One girl told me she would vote for Bush because he "fixed the mess that Clinton made". I then, of course, responded with "what mess did clinton make?" She couldnt give me an answer. After a while I realized she thought this way because her parents disliked clinton for one reason or another and love bush. She couldn't give me one policy she liked or disliked about bush or kerry. she would have just extended her parents' votes, as someone already said. Another kid told me that "kerry is the man" and then rattled off a list of bands who support kerry. again, he couldn't really give me any policies. he just said, "the war in Iraq is wrong." But, he couldn't give me any educated response. And, many kids where i went to high school would never admit that they would vote democrat, seeing as how about 90% of the county is republican. They would have voted democrat just to fit in, because that's what kids in high school do... they try to fit in.

This is why those under 18 shouldn't be allowed to vote. I, personall, never paid attention to much news until I turned 18. You know why?... because most of the laws created in America don't affect me until I turn 18. And that's the attitude most kids have. they don't care about the issues because the issues don't affect them. I used to see my brother watching CNN and Fox News constantly, and I would be disgusted at how he would just sit there all day and watch the news. but, now that i am majorly affected by what happens in government, i find myself doing the same thing, constantly picking up the paper, or going online to catch up with the latest news in the world.

I think it's dangerous to let those who are under 18 vote when they can be so easily swayed by what their parents say or by what their favorite band at the time says. I know I wouldnt have let myself vote when i was in high school.

A girl who voted for Kerry voted for ‘em simply because “Bush looks stupid”. 18’s not a magic age, believe me….

I don’t see how they’re any different from the rest of the voting public. I gotta get Thrill’s back on this one. The majority of the voting public is uneducated, uninterested, and not voting in the first place. If you care enough to vote, then you should care enough to get truly educated on the issues. I’ve met people with Ph.D’s that were some of the dumbest people ever, and shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, much less wield a ballot…and that goes for both political parties and sides of the spectrum.

I think that getting the kids involved in voting by making them able to vote would at least make ‘em stick with it…especially if we get the parents involved. They’re responsible for their kids, why not entrust them with this duty?

Also, note that every person who wasn’t old enough to vote that posted said something to the effect of “well, I’d be alright to vote, but not this idiot I go to school with”. Guess what….that idiot won’t get any smarter by age 18, or 20, or 30. Unlike alcohol, guns, etc, you won’t get arrested for giving someone a papercut with a paper ballot, or driving while voting. This shouldn’t be age related. The founding fathers wrote in the Constitution a minimum age for running for president (35?) which is old by their standards, but young by ours. If that had been adjusted (due to inflation) would it be fair if we were only allowed to vote for people 60+ for the presidentcy? Social security wouldn’t be that big of an issue, believe me.

At any rate, lower the voting age to 16. Unlike lowering the drinking age, I doubt you’ll see a whole bunch of teens run amonk partying like it’s ’99 because they can vote, and peeing in alleyways. Who knows, it might inspire younger generations to be like some of the more politically aware people on here, who (right now) are the exception, not the rule, and will probably always be. Why would that be bad?

[Thrillhouse]

Longest-
Most states let someone drive at 16, you can get in R and NC-17 movies at 17, and you can’t drink until you’re 21, so 18 isn’t the end-all for adulthood. There are responsibilities given before and held until after people reach the age of 18.
There are plenty of people who are over 18, live with their parents, and are not responsible for themselves, but no one is suggesting they shouldn’t be allowed to vote. We are heading down a slippery slope when we are using intellect and responsibility as a rational to deprive people the right to vote.
Frndlefire-
People tell us who to vote for all the time. During an election, there are signs on every street corner, TV ads; people just stand on the side of the street with signs and are doing it for no other reason than to tell you who to vote for. There are lots of unions and special interest groups who ban together and vote the way they are told to. Are you suggesting that a Teamsters vote shouldn’t count? (I don’t think you do, but just it case it really is the way you feel, keep it to yourself; you don’t want to offend those guys.) Even if a kid’s parents do tell him whom to vote for, the actual vote is still cast in private. Most of the kids I know might vote differently from their parents just to rebel; and that would be especially true for kids who are being forced to vote by their parents.
GeorgiaMiddie2-
For every person under the age of 18 who didn’t understand all of the issues involved in the election, I could probably find someone over 18, who knew even less, and actually voted. A celebrity could sway a 71 year old just as easily as a 17 year old. Why should we not let someone vote because they are more likely to be swayed by someone exercising free speech? Do you really think that issues like education or personal Social Security accounts don’t affect people under 18?
Just because a new group of people are given the right to vote doesn’t mean they are going to. Only a little over half of the people in this country actually exercise their voting rights, and that stat would probably stay consistent if voting rights were extended to minors, maybe a little lower. I would suggest that someone merely having the desire to vote should be all that is needed to prove that person should be given the right.

[BuckWyld]

Longest-
Most states let someone drive at 16, you can get in R and NC-17 movies at 17, and you can’t drink until you’re 21, so 18 isn’t the end-all for adulthood. There are responsibilities given before and held until after people reach the age of 18.


not exactly correct, you can get a Junior license at 16 which has restrictions adult licenses dont have. as far as movies you have to be either over 18 or accompanied by an adult for R movies. and over 18, or over 17 and accompanied by an adult for NC-17 movies.

[TheKOB]

not exactly correct, you can get a Junior license at 16 which has restrictions adult licenses dont have. as far as movies you have to be either over 18 or accompanied by an adult for R movies. and over 18, or over 17 and accompanied by an adult for NC-17 movies.


He said most states, not all. Here in SC, I believe you can start learning to drive at 14. I swear I've seen kids driving while sitting on phone books in their parents F-150

[Thrillhouse]

not exactly correct, you can get a Junior license at 16 which has restrictions adult licenses dont have. as far as movies you have to be either over 18 or accompanied by an adult for R movies. and over 18, or over 17 and accompanied by an adult for NC-17 movies.

I said most states, but nonetheless you can drive a car before you are 18. You can do more damage behind the wheel of a car than in a voting booth.

Interesting points about movies, but wrong. At 17, you can see any movie.
http://www.filmratings.com/

Who's laughing now?

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

Do you really think that issues like education or personal Social Security accounts don’t affect people under 18?

True, these issues do affect teens, since they are becoming part of the system and will one day have to pay for the baby boomers, but Americans aren't concerned with what will happen in 5 or 10 or 50 years. Americans aren't very long-term oriented... they deal with issues when they become a problem. As a country, we aren't very proactive, and therefore don't really care about issues that don't affect us right now. I'm not gonna lie, social security wasn't a big factor for me in this election. I was more worried about the economy, education, and the war, since i'm a college student, at prime age for the military, who will enter the work force in 3 or 4 years. I'm not really concerned with issues that will impact me way down the road.