DOES DEFENSE WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS?

[storm_q2]

I'm doing some research on this subject and would appreciate your insights on these questions:

1. Many lacrosse fans believe that "Offense wins games, but defense wins championships." Do you agree?

2. When people say, "defense wins championships," do they mean defense including goalkeeping, or defense without goalkeeping?

Thanks!

[SenatorLaX30]

well its really a footbal term, but not really in lacrosse because if u cant pass or catch u cant win

[zak]

The whole team plays defense. On the teams that win championships, everyone plays defence well.

[storm_q2]

Thanks for your answer, Senator, but when I google "defense wins championships" lacrosse I get 2,260 hits. I've seen people claiming that defense wins championships on this forum, in other lacrosse forums, and in Inside Lacrosse magazine. I've also seen that adage pop up in baseball, hockey... it seems to be a common belief among sports fans.

Thanks again for your response.

[liveforlax19]

i dont believe in one part of a team being bigger than the other...

everyones role on a lacrosse team is just as big as the other... u cant have a team if ur missing one...

so i guess i disagree... defense doesnt win championships... a TEAM wins championships

and yes, the goalie is part of defense

[fenwicklax89]

the defense cant win a game, or a championship for that matter, without an offense. the way i see it, the defense/offense are encouraged by each other. for example, if a defensemen makes a huge play and carries the ball up, it gains momentum and helps the offense mentally. the same thing happens on defence after the offense makes a big play.

[laxman359]

i believe that you meant to say offense sells tickets defense wins championships?

[BigTony]

I would change that to "Middies win champoinships." If your middies can't control ball movement than your attack will get the ball; no matter how good your defense is, they can't protect against an extra 3 people.

[Hooligan]

Defense is the fundamental constant in all champions. If you're able to keep points away from your opponent, theoretically you have a much better chance at winning. Coaches pull their hair out by the root when an opponent scores on a botched defensive drill.

But lets be honest, a perfect combination of both offense and defense is what wins championships. If you are able to keep a team from scoring more than 10 goals, and if you are able to score 11 goals per game, then by those numbers you are going to have a winning record (by the slimmest of margins). Think about it, if the score by the end of all your games is 11-10, you win. You needed your defense to hold the opponent to their pre-set 10 goals or less per game, and the offense was able to score their 11+.

Defense wins championships is an over-used chiche. But what is the true definition of a champ team is "everything in moderation".

[Ginjiroku]

If you think about it offonce actually wins the game. You score goals to win and the offence scores but a good defence is just as important because it keeps the other team from outscoring you. Overall they're equal.

[Ventral]

I like to think of it as:
Attack Draws the Crowds, and the Defence Wins the Game.
But that is my very biased opinion on it.

[MontclairLax]

Defense wins championships. Dont forget everyone on the field plays D. The GOalie, Defensmen and MIddies obviously do but Attackmen riding is just as important. If there was another thing that one championships it would be groundballs. Lacrosse is about possesion and if you cant get the groundballs you wont have a chance to score.

[stegmakk]

First off to answer 2nd question (easy) is YES goalkeeping is included in Defense...a goalie is THE last line of defense...

Now for the first one...I agree with hooli that you need a good mix to really win a championship...now as a Dman you might say I am biased but I played attack a couple years and middie MANY more...I still say defense.

Why? Think about this. Wether your D is good holding the other team to 5 goals and your O is horrid getting 0 versus your O real good scoring 10, but your D letting in 15...either way you are down by 5.
What the difference is is the mental game. I have been in both situations, and it is more disheartening if your D is swiss cheese even if yourt O can score. If your D is great and your O is sucking, you still have that feeling of "OK they are keeping us in the game lets score some for the goalie"...how many times have you heard the term that so and so is keeping us in the game...who/what unit is this said about most? Defense/Goalie

[Hooligan]

Reference the Calgary Roughnecks stats from 2002-2004. They took two seasons to learn that you have to play both sides of the ball. They had an offense that could score 18 goals per game, and a defense that still let in enough to help lose games. When they got some balance, they won the championship.

[PHSLaxDude]

Okay, this whole thing, "offense wins games, but defense wins championships" should be put into perspective along side its counter part "The best defense is a good offense".

It is a team effort. Here's an example:
1)Offense wins the the face-off and scores.
2)The game goes back and forth and in the final quarter its a one point game with your team on top.
3)Your defense is getting really tired because the ball has been down on your end for the past couple minutes.
4)Your defense clears the ball and your offense uses good passes and catches to control the ball so the defense has time to rest.

...so think about it this way, YES defense is very important in winning games, but for the defense to be good so must the offense. The Offense needs to control the ball in the box giving the defense time to recover after their last clear.

My two cents.

[HdGLaxWarrior]

If the opponent cant score, then you have a better chance to win.

[slinkyspine]

If the other team does not score a goal becuase you defend so well then they cannot win. but if u dont score the game goes on forever . The better your defense the more you get the ball the more u chances to score the less for them see where im goin

[LCNlaxman]

"If you can't score, don't let anyone else."

[LFLax12]

Okay, this whole thing, "offense wins games, but defense wins championships" should be put into perspective along side its counter part "The best defense is a good offense".

It is a team effort. Here's an example:
1)Offense wins the the face-off and scores.
2)The game goes back and forth and in the final quarter its a one point game with your team on top.
3)Your defense is getting really tired because the ball has been down on your end for the past couple minutes.
4)Your defense clears the ball and your offense uses good passes and catches to control the ball so the defense has time to rest.

...so think about it this way, YES defense is very important in winning games, but for the defense to be good so must the offense. The Offense needs to control the ball in the box giving the defense time to recover after their last clear.

My two cents.
thats a great explanation :thumbsup:

[wilsontopowell]

i think it depends on wat kind of team it is. for instance take JHU. they had a stellar d and didnt like to take a lot of shots and had more of a possesion game. now take last year when syracuse won the national championship. they had an offensive minded gameplan which included taking a lot of shots and obviously their d didnt win it for them even though they had a tremendous goalie whith jay pfeifer

[moondog]

Defense absolutely wins championships.

Can somebody say PRINCETON?

Even Syracuse has always had solid D. Don't be distracted by the spectacular offense--they also (have) had good D.

And yes--the goalie is the cornerstone of the Defense. He calls out checks and slides and coverages...I'm really not sure this warrants a thread.

[mustang_lax]

Coaching is what really wins everything. If you have a great team but they are horribly coached, everyone wil be goig around doing their own thing. 2 season ago we had a great defense, however we finished 4-14. This past season we didn't have as talented of a defense and yet, we finished 10-8. It's also all team chemistry. If the offense is scoring tons of goals that makes the defense become more relaxed and calm ,which relieves pressure and makes them perform without being afraid of screwing up. Same with the offense. If you have a stingy defense which allows little goals. The makes the offense less afraid to pressure more and try to get more goals because they are confident that the defense will stop the opposing attack. Also with the goalie. If the goalie is stopping everything, everyone gets a boost and tries to help out.

[12345]

2. When people say, "defense wins championships," do they mean defense including goalkeeping, or defense without goalkeeping?

Thanks!

How could defence not include goalkeeping?

[ahslax18]

yes it does, i'm not sure as much in lacrosse than other sports...

look at the last few superbowl champs, the pats, bucs, and ravens all had excellent defense.

the last 3 years, the pistons and spurs, both top notch defense, this year they were 1 and 2 in the league

hockey...isnt be played, so who cares


in baseball, defense, (which you could include starting pitching as defense) can win championships, like the sox (as much as i hate to sa that) and marlins.

thats all i can think of

[NJOldGuy]

I think the term assumes that you will have at least an adequate offense.

I really think it refers to the former poplar "Run and Shoot" offenses in basketball and football. The concept being that you push the points onto the board and in theory the last possession wins.

In building a team I like to build from the goalie out. A good goalie can keep you in games, will generally be the start of a fast break clear and be leader.

I think the key to a good defense is every player palying D! From the attack ride, to middies hustling back into the box. Longpoles should always have it as their priority.

Their a few game situations more exciting than stopping a well executed play and converting that into a score of your own.

Defense defitnely wins championships, but you need offense to win the games to get into the championship game!

[PimpD-LaxRider]

u need a 50-50 mix half D and half O

[lyonslax98]

offense and defense go together. you can have a great defense, but if the ball is down in your end 75% of the game b/c the offense can't possess, the other team will score, if only b/c they are getting more shots and tiring you out. and not only do they have the ball a lot, that means that your offense DOESN'T have the ball, so you won't be getting much support from them.

also, middies may be the most important part of the game. they need to get the ball to the attack, whether its from GBs, a faceoff, clear, or a ride. they also have to get back on defense so they can minimize fast breaks and make sure all the responsibilities are covered in a settled situation.

this year when we played the best jv team in state, we held them to 7 goals. that was alright, but when our offense could only manage 3...you get the picture. as a defenseman, it was very difficult to watch the o struggle, and conversely it was a great boost for the defense when the o did put something on the board. and with the middies, it was really discouraging when we had our men but they would feed a middie right in the crease for an easy goal...the moral of the story is that great defense is necessary, but it only goes so far if you don't have the other pieces.

[Woodenstick]

I think that the theory behind the statement is that a good defense is based on teamwork and fundamentals and will always be there, while a good offense may be based more on individual play and can go bad either because your star has a bad day or gets shut down. And the only way to win the championship is never to have a bad day.

Ultimately, though, you have to have good O and good D to get anywhere.

[CoachK]

In my experience, the keys to any team are balance. I played for a team in college that averaged 15 gpg, but we allowed 13. Our poles were studs, and our goalie was horrible. In the following years we balanced out, and only allowed 6 gpg.

Once the beginnings of a defense is set, which as a coach, I do view as most important, I move to choosing the attack. I don't really want dodging, flashy attackmen. I now use the best riding, possession, feeding/finishing shorties. Anyone can be an attackmen on my team, that's not asking for a ton of natural talent.

Middies are where the game is won. You have to control the game between the lines, play great D, be there for the second or third slide (which is most teams downfall), and push that ball in transition. I'd suggest to coaches coaching new teams to move the previous attack to midfield, and watch them work.

With that said, it comes down to how to do you get an advantage over your opponent? Its still a team game, and it was said before, moderation wins, but the moderation needs to give you an advantage.

[spenny]

defense wins championships?
you betcha. 2 words: tilman johnson. '03 ncaa finals. put a lesser goalie in the cage and JHU ends the drought 2 years ago.

[RockStar]

Can't post much that hasn't already been said on this topic. Here are a few points to ponder

-Good defense is a major asset to any team
-A defense is only as good as it's anchor (the goalie)
-To win an individual game, a defense only needs to be "good enough" to suit the offense's goal production. To win consistently, you need a good defense. They'll steal some of those close, low scoring games for you.

Most important point:

-Every save by a goalie, and every loose ball collected by a defense unit can lead to a clear and then a goal at the other end. Better defense almost automatically equals higher offensive output (or at the very least, more chances for the attack unit to screw up!)

[chmcclellan]

Obviously both are important but since I have started catching MLL games on ESPN2 I am surprised that there isn't more of an emphasis on defense. It looks like either the Cannons or the Bayhawks will win and they are both offensive powerhouses. I have only seen a few games but it seems like if you are Baltimore or Boston you could let in twice as many goals and be ok.

Just my take

[JHU43]

defense wins championships?
you betcha. 2 words: tilman johnson. '03 ncaa finals. put a lesser goalie in the cage and JHU ends the drought 2 years ago.


In a related vein, look at this year: Duke had the highest scoring offense in the country. Hopkins did not. Hopkins held Duke to 8 goals, including 1 in the last 27 or so minutes. Hopkins wins. Duke loses.

[hankooklax]

i think the idea is that everyone is taught to shoot and score but its hard to teach defense because defense doesnt only rely on the skill of one person like you can do when you iso. You need all six guys to play good solid team defense with accurate field reading and good slides.

[DashLAX18]

[QUOTE=Ginjiroku]If you think about it offonce actually wins the game. You score goals to win and the offence scores but a good defence is just as important because it keeps the other team from outscoring you. Overall they're equal.[/QUOTE

Maybe but then again when you think about it in high pressure games at a level like the NCAA Championships most of the goals are scored on Transition whick is started by either a great save by the Goalie or A turnover caused by a defensman. I am an Attackman myself so i would love to say O takes the cake but its just not possible to score as many goals as needed against a quality team without your defense coming up with some great stops to get you the ball in a un-settled situation. Look at the last couple NCAA Semi-finals/championships:
*Virgina's Tilman Johnson notches 13 saves against JH
*Navy beats Princton with an transition goal (matt russel makes the save)
*Syracuse beats Navy with Brian Nee feeding Powell on a Fast Break Goal when Navy makes a bad pass due to the Oarnge's D
*Johns Hopkin's Schwarztman makes 2 OT saves resulting in a JH transition OT winner from Benson Erwin
*Hopkins holds Duke to one goal in the second half.

[Upintheclouds]

the defense cant win a game, or a championship for that matter, without an offense. the way i see it, the defense/offense are encouraged by each other. for example, if a defensemen makes a huge play and carries the ball up, it gains momentum and helps the offense mentally. the same thing happens on defence after the offense makes a big play.
i dont think hes trying to say that either one can win without the other, i think the question was leaning more towards whats makes it easier to win championship games (wasnt really sure how to word that one :WTF: ). But anyway, i think that in lacrosse the best offense will beat the best defense im not really to sure though.

[TweeK]

Some thing is for sure, scoring more than the other team wins championships, thats were i come in :worship:

[Lacrosseology-1994]

No.... you need a steady balance of both offense and defense. True enough however, the defense is always important to have, especially if the offense isn't that productive. I believe it's a luxury to have a high scoring offense since it's hard to score on the field. But in box lax, it's very common to have high scoring games so defense isn't emphasized as much. Defense is alot more common in hockey and soccer than in lax.

[NadsLaX06111]

Actually, if offence wins games, and the championship is a game, doesn’t the offence win it?

[RockStar]

.....But in box lax, it's very common to have high scoring games so defense isn't emphasized as much....

For a guy from Brampton, you've got a funny opinion about box-laX defense. It is THE focus with many if not most box teams.

These days, there are far more 8-7 games than there are 16-14 games in Junior A!

Major scores are a touch higher, mostly because of better shooters and bigger nets.

Whitby, Toronto, Six Nations and a few other Jr. A teams are starting to run-and-gun a bit more these days, but pretty well all of them were doing the 5-off/5-on offense/defense unit switch for the last several years.

[Conrice]

i personally think that a strong midfield unit will win championships because they play both sides of the ball....

in soccer, for example, they dont have this debate about offense or defense, they say its the midfield that makes or breaks a team...

midfielders make great contributions on defense, they win face-offs, and they can shoot and score on offense

look at the last championship between duke and hopkins....duke had a better defense and a better offense (mainly attack and goalie), but, hopkins had a stronger midfield and they won

[Truebeast]

yes, defense definatley can win championships depending on how good your defense truly is. As long as teh other team can't score, you can't lose. And yes, goalie is included, the goalie also helps the ball stay out of the net. Why wouldn't the keep be considered Defense?

My team had the best D in the state this year but we lost by one in the state final probably because of a large lack of experience.

Of course your team also has to have the other elements of a team, and ATLEAST a decent midfield and attack.

[swordsman]

My vote goes to midfield. They as previously said have more to do then all others. Except maybe goalies(But that's more mental).