Possible suspension (or worse) to be filed...

[Hooligan]

Rumor has it, the NLL is considering disciplinary actions, as a result of the on field actions of John Grant Jr, during the 3/12 game against the Philadelphia Wings at the Wachovia Center in Philly. It was not disclosed by the NLL what occured, or how long the pending suspension would last, but it has been suggested that a suspension is immanent. According to several eye witnesses in the audience, John Grant Jr. made a lude gesture, by grabbing his groin area in the direction of the crowd.

It was rumored a decision could be made soon, pending a conference call to be made soon. Again, nothing is certain now, and no one should jump to conclusions.

[RockStar]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

Lets see if the league actually has the balls to do what's right.

I'm still skeptical, since there's probably no conclusive and publicly available video or photo evidence.

[SDS416]

Honestly I think he is being accused (and may not have actually done) of merely expressing the sentiment that most of the visitors to the Wachovia center would like to express to some of the most classless fans in all of sport, those of the city of Philadelphia. Trust me there is no love lost here in Rochester for the fans of Philly.

Not a peep about a possible suspension of JGjr. here in Rochester. Probably some disgruntaled Philly fan, who is sick of seeing him just wreck Philly every time the 2 teams meet, brewed up a load of BS and is now trying to sell it. Not suprising. I guess some people get a bit upset when it becomes clear that their team will be busy booking tee times at the local golf course when others will be getting ready for the playoffs.

[1/2man1/2amazin]

Yes! That is so awesome. The NLL needs more people like that, John Grant is now my new favourite player, not because of his lacrosse skills, but his crotch grabbing at the fans skills. That is so awesome.

[stegmakk]

I heard a suspension was comming down also...sad that this has to happen in our sport...JGjr should know better...

[SDS416]

Its too bad if it does happen. I'll say this, the NLL better have some damn good proof, otherwise I can promise that the K-Hawks ownership will drag this one off to court if need be.
Personally I hope that if it comes down to it, the Hawks drag the league right through the mud. The powers that be at the NLL are a bunch of clowns anyway.
I know that JGjr. loves box, but I hope this sours him on the joke that is NLL and he goes outside this summer and just tears it up and turns his back on box until a league actually worth playing in and supporting comes around.

[SDS416]

I heard a suspension was comming down also...sad that this has to happen in our sport...JGjr should know better...

Whats really sad is what the NLL has done to the sport of Box Lacrosse and the perception of the sport in general in the public's eye. The NLL goes out of its way to promote everything about the product except the skill it takes to actually play the game. And its disgusting. Its clear they are more interested in trying to make it look like the WWF or a heavy metal concert than a lacrosse game. They have gone out of their way to promote an atmosphere of wild and raucous behavior on everyone's part, and when you promote "a war on the floor" (yes that was a NLL promotional pitch at one time, used in the advertising information) you get what you get when it goes bad.

If you had ever spent any time examining the media information or the advertising proposals that league generates you'd quickly see that the sport of lax is the last interest they have.

[LL71]

^ nice post, I hope the leauge won't be stupid and take away rochesters playoff chances and suspend him hopefuly it will be a fine if anything.

[RockStar]

^ nice post, I hope the leauge won't be stupid and take away rochesters playoff chances and suspend him hopefuly it will be a fine if anything.

They've fined and/or suspended players for simply flipping the bird to the crowd or just addressing fans with foul language.

If there's proof that Grant did what he's accused of, he deserves a stiff fine and to sit out for at least one game.

[Hooligan]

Honestly I think he is being accused (and may not have actually done) of merely expressing the sentiment that most of the visitors to the Wachovia center would like to express to some of the most classless fans in all of sport, those of the city of Philadelphia. Trust me there is no love lost here in Rochester for the fans of Philly.
And in the way of that disgruntled Philly fan was about 10 or so children, most of which were little girls under the age of 12.

He did do it, there are literally hundreds of eye witnesses, a good percentage of which have filed formal complaints with the league, and there IS SOLID EVIDENCE of the infraction.

Trust me, this one's not going down without any repercussions.

[banditsfan85]

Its too bad if it does happen. I'll say this, the NLL better have some damn good proof, otherwise I can promise that the K-Hawks ownership will drag this one off to court if need be.
Personally I hope that if it comes down to it, the Hawks drag the league right through the mud. The powers that be at the NLL are a bunch of clowns anyway.
I know that JGjr. loves box, but I hope this sours him on the joke that is NLL and he goes outside this summer and just tears it up and turns his back on box until a league actually worth playing in and supporting comes around.

are you kidding me, your saying that falshing the crowd doesnt deserve a suspension?
the league would be a joke if they didnt do anything about it.

[1/2man1/2amazin]

Its too bad if it does happen. I'll say this, the NLL better have some damn good proof, otherwise I can promise that the K-Hawks ownership will drag this one off to court if need be.


I hope you're kidding... I'm sure that an ARENA FULL OF PEOPLE WITNESSING THE INCIDENT is not enough proof.

[LL71]

so your saying he flipped out his junk to 10 12 year old girls in the middle of a game?

[1/2man1/2amazin]

I dont think he took it out. I think he just grabbed it.
I would disagree with a fine, because it's not like these guys are making huge money doing this, suspend him if you have to, but no fines. That's my opinion at least.

[Hooligan]

No, he didn't "flip out his junk" to the crowd. It was merely more of...well I can't really say what the gesture is on the forum, but you get the idea. It had to deal with making a gesture with your hand, in the groinal area, which included some uniform movement.

Latest I'm hearing is much less than originally planned. He's facing a very very hefty fine, with a 1 or 2 game suspension. Supposidly its been filed by the league, and immediately appealed by Grant. He'll play in this weekend's game in Rochester.

[SDS416]

are you kidding me, your saying that falshing the crowd doesnt deserve a suspension?
the league would be a joke if they didnt do anything about it.


A. He did not "flash" the crowd. He is accused of making a gesture towards them.

B. That league is a joke to begin with, regardless of what they do to JGjr. in this matter.

[SDS416]

I hope you're kidding... I'm sure that an ARENA FULL OF PEOPLE WITNESSING THE INCIDENT is not enough proof.


If the league can't produce INDEPENDENT witnesses or video footage, then I think its BS. These types of situations always seem to produce 40,000 people who were there and "witnessed" and were "offended" by the incident (who probably reacted by cursing, shouting and making some gestures of their own), when in reality about 10,000 were there. How many times have we seen and heard accounts of something happening that turned out to be so totally overblown that they are really an non event?

All I am suggesting is that the league get it right, instead of some overstated, ill thought out action in the heat of a moment.

Interestingly enough, inspite of a 1/2 page preview in todays Democrat and Chronicle, there is not one mention of any problem or issue regarding JGjr. Seems to me if this were at all a big deal or major incident it certainly would have made the news hear at least once in the past week. That, coupled with the fact that the league (according to reports here) has drastically reduced already their intended penalty, tells me its not as big an issue as all of you would like to make it out to be.

[RockStar]

If the league can't produce INDEPENDENT witnesses or video footage, then I think its BS. .....
.

Interestingly enough, inspite of a 1/2 page preview in todays Democrat and Chronicle, there is not one mention of any problem or issue regarding JGjr......

If they have proof (league official saw it happen, or clear and conclusive video/photo), then he deserves a fine and suspension. If the only proof is spam e-mail from fans claiming to be there, the league would ignore it (like last year when Mike Accursi whacked someone sitting behind the penalty box with his stick...no video, no punishment).

I bet the D&C didn't have a reporter at the last game, and since I haven't seen this Grant story on AP or any other conventional media.....well, they might not even know about it!

[Hooligan]

If the league can't produce INDEPENDENT witnesses or video footage, then I think its BS.

I bet the D&C didn't have a reporter at the last game, and since I haven't seen this Grant story on AP or any other conventional media.....well, they might not even know about it!
SDS416, there's plenty of evidence on the issue. Not to mention Jim Jennings was in attendance in the first place. And you want conventional media witnesses? It happened right in front of me, and about 5 other people who write for some form of media outlet.

I don't think Grant chose wisely, the section he wanted to annoy.

But please explain to me how the NLL is a joke for taking care of this situation? I can't fathom how making sure to take action upon indecency is a joke. Look, whether or not you want to believe it, John Grant Jr. is not infallible. He's actually done things like this before, but without some form of solid evidence, has walked away scott-free. But this time he made the mistake of being in a place where the game was televised, and motioned towards the crowd where several respected members of the media and NLL community were sitting.

I guess you'll just have to wait, and see what happens.

[LL71]

Holligan, Why did he do it? was he being chirpped or was he just arrogant??

[Hooligan]

He was provoked by a fan who was in the vicinity of where I was at the time. The fan was completely unruley, but lets face it...Grant Jr was just as arrogant, making several arrogant motions to the crowd during game stoppages and Rochester goals.

I don't condone the actions of either the fan or Grant, and find it disgraceful it exists at NLL games at all.

Grant was arrogant, and was recieving some crap from a fan as well. Shameful.

[konkomania]

idk i didnt see the game at all but could he have been adjusting his cup at the wrong time idk just a thought

[powellfan1]

Trust me, The DC has plenty of reporters who cover every Knighthawks game. I say if there is no proof there is no problem.

[SDS416]

He was provoked by a fan who was in the vicinity of where I was at the time. The fan was completely unruley, but lets face it...Grant Jr was just as arrogant, making several arrogant motions to the crowd during game stoppages and Rochester goals.

I don't condone the actions of either the fan or Grant, and find it disgraceful it exists at NLL games at all.

Grant was arrogant, and was recieving some crap from a fan as well. Shameful.

Here is the problem, and I may take alot of heat for this, but I've seen it happen in alot of places. Just because you buy a ticket for a game, it does not give you a right to provoke, abuse, incite or demean others. This is part of the whole WWF atmosphere that the NLL promotes. Lets create as wild an atmosphere as we can. Couple that with morons all drunked up and probably predisposed to that kind of behavior and you probably have the idiot you are describing who was going after JGjr. And the arena, team and league does NOTHING about it. Then when it finally reaches a "boiling point" and a MINOR incident occurs, its the player who is held accountable. What this fan was doing and saying was probably more offensive than JGjr.'s actions, yet his actions are unacceptable? Give me a break.
And as for the whole arrogance thing, get real. Players are pumped up and by the very nature of sport, tend to be a bit arrogant when they are in the heat of competition. Was he showboating and showing some emotion, probably. MOST ATHLETES DO! To me this is more about some jealousy about the fact that Philly can't get it up against Rochester even if you gave them a case of VIAGRA and that JGjr. is the tops in the league in terms of talent, playing on 1 1/2 legs.

[Hooligan]

Here is the problem, and I may take alot of heat for this, but I've seen it happen in alot of places. Just because you buy a ticket for a game, it does not give you a right to provoke, abuse, incite or demean others. This is part of the whole WWF atmosphere that the NLL promotes. Lets create as wild an atmosphere as we can. Couple that with morons all drunked up and probably predisposed to that kind of behavior and you probably have the idiot you are describing who was going after JGjr.
I agree 100%
And the arena, team and league does NOTHING about it.
Not true. I've seen many fans ejected from the Wachovia Center, and other arenas that I've been to. You can't act like an idiot, and get away with it.
Then when it finally reaches a "boiling point" and a MINOR incident occurs, its the player who is held accountable. What this fan was doing and saying was probably more offensive than JGjr.'s actions, yet his actions are unacceptable? Give me a break.
The problem isn't the fact that JGjr replied to the fan's heckling, it was the fact that he did what he did, with small children in the audience. Thats the problem. Not the fact that he replied. He wouldn't be the first player to respond to fan heckling. Most times, they turn towards the glass and smile, or wave. The fans want you to respond, so if you do, might as well give them a laugh.
And as for the whole arrogance thing, get real. Players are pumped up and by the very nature of sport, tend to be a bit arrogant when they are in the heat of competition. Was he showboating and showing some emotion, probably. MOST ATHLETES DO! To me this is more about some jealousy about the fact that Philly can't get it up against Rochester even if you gave them a case of VIAGRA and that JGjr. is the tops in the league in terms of talent, playing on 1 1/2 legs.
You're making it seem like I'm the one with the complaint. I didn't file any complaints to the comissioner. In fact, he asked me and my group what we saw. I didn't give much information, other than it happened. Not my place to assess punishments, or actions. Thats the NLL's job.

[SDS416]

You're making it seem like I'm the one with the complaint. I didn't file any complaints to the comissioner. In fact, he asked me and my group what we saw. I didn't give much information, other than it happened. Not my place to assess punishments, or actions. Thats the NLL's job.

I understand what you are trying to say, however, I hoestly wonder if a reporter from the D&C would have seen it quite the same way as you would have. You run Philadelphialacrosse.com, a fan oriented site related to Philly lacrosse. If a Rochester Lacrosse sight existed, I wonder if the commentary would have been more geared towards the fan involved, and the arena security, which in this incident clearly didn't do its job.

I'll admit I've never been to a NLL game there, just hockey and the only clown I have EVER seen ejected there was the one who fell into the penalty box trying to fight Tie Domi.

[mightymouth]

I understand what you are trying to say, however, I hoestly wonder if a reporter from the D&C would have seen it quite the same way as you would have. You run Philadelphialacrosse.com, a fan oriented site related to Philly lacrosse. If a Rochester Lacrosse sight existed, I wonder if the commentary would have been more geared towards the fan involved, and the arena security, which in this incident clearly didn't do its job.


Philadelphialacrosse.com has not written about the story for several reasons.
1)It does not help the league, it hurts them.
2) Conflict of interest. I was an eye witness.
3)Grant has appealed and the will be an arbitration hearing via telephone early this week.
4) He was caught on video.
5) After this incident where he DID pull down his pants and grab himself, he threw a cup of water on a fan. The fan was escorted out and his season tickets revoked. (arena security)
6) Its not the first time Grant has done this type of thing, just the first time he has done it while in uniform.

[Lax4Ever]

Alright, can someone PM me and tell me what happened? This sounds really messed up and I just want to know what on earth he did.

[SDS416]

Philadelphialacrosse.com has not written about the story for several reasons.
1)It does not help the league, it hurts them.
2) Conflict of interest. I was an eye witness.
3)Grant has appealed and the will be an arbitration hearing via telephone early this week.
4) He was caught on video.
5) After this incident where he DID pull down his pants and grab himself, he threw a cup of water on a fan. The fan was escorted out and his season tickets revoked. (arena security)
6) Its not the first time Grant has done this type of thing, just the first time he has done it while in uniform.


I doubt the league is as concerned about this harming their image as you would like to believe. That league goes out of its way to promote a WWF style form of sport and a bit of controversy is probably not something they would shy away from.

There is no conflict of interest if you report objectively, only facts without commentary or opinion. Granted there is a fine line between the facts as you see them and how others may view them.

As for the actions of arena security, its too little too late. I have no doubt that this guy was being loud, abusive and quite lewd himself long before JGjr. acted towards him. Where is the arena security then? Nowhere apparently. Only after it reaches a terminal point do they act. And where is the outrage on the fans part? Oh yeah, thats right, as long as its directed to the opposing player its okay, but when that player gives it back in kind, its morally repulsive. Right.

[1/2man1/2amazin]

Oh yeah, thats right, as long as its directed to the opposing player its okay, but when that player gives it back in kind, its morally repulsive. Right.

Making fun of a player at a professional sporting event is morally acceptable.
Pulling out your penis in front of a crowd of people because someone hurt your feelings is morally repulsive.

... at least where I'm from.

[stegmakk]

There is a line that should not be crossed as a spectator...granted there is yelling at players and getting them riled up...its part of the game...but there is a gray line that is hard to determine usually until after the fact...calling a goalie a sieve and telling him he sucks is different than berating a player with vulgarities...YET, if a player acts in cheap ways and say gets in many cheap shots on a player, is it acceptable then to berate the guilty player with vulgarities?
Either way, players are PROFESSIONALS...they need to act that way...with money and fans that love you come responsability to those fans as well as fans that will hate you...

[SDS416]

There is a line that should not be crossed as a spectator...granted there is yelling at players and getting them riled up...its part of the game...but there is a gray line that is hard to determine usually until after the fact...calling a goalie a sieve and telling him he sucks is different than berating a player with vulgarities...YET, if a player acts in cheap ways and say gets in many cheap shots on a player, is it acceptable then to berate the guilty player with vulgarities?
Either way, players are PROFESSIONALS...they need to act that way...with money and fans that love you come responsability to those fans as well as fans that will hate you...

It is now my understanding that the fan in question flipped Grant off on more than one occasion during the game. To me thats not a gray line, thats a vulgarity directed at him. If you are man enough to direct that at someone, you need to be man enough to accept a reply in kind.
Yes, players are professionals. And they are asked to do their job in a particular atmosphere and have a reasonable expectation to not be abused in that fashion.
The fact that the fan was still there after more than one incident is no one's fault but that of the team and arena security.

[1/2man1/2amazin]

It is now my understanding that the fan in question flipped Grant off on more than one occasion during the game. To me thats not a gray line, thats a vulgarity directed at him. If you are man enough to direct that at someone, you need to be man enough to accept a reply in kind.

You cant go whipping your **** out everytime someone gives you the finger, that ridiculous.

Besides, it's not about this one fan, it's about the rest of the fan's that saw, like kids.

[RockStar]

It is now my understanding that the fan in question flipped Grant off on more than one occasion during the game. To me thats not a gray line, thats a vulgarity directed at him. If you are man enough to direct that at someone, you need to be man enough to accept a reply in kind.
.......
:thumbsdow
No, not really.

Grant is a paid professional.

The fan was a drunken jackass who's only qualification was that he had $30 in his pocket for a game ticket.

As such, there's a bit of a difference in the level of responsibility that's expected for one's actions.

Also, I'm sure that said drunk jackass wasn't too upset with Grant's response....it was the others in that section that were.

[mightymouth]

The fan who flipped him off is a jerk who was a guest of a season ticket holder. The same guy cheered a week befor when the opposing goalie got run into and tore his acl. He was escorted out and hopefully not allowed back. There was another fan who caused some trouble behind the players bench who was also escorted out. Security did their job.

[Hooligan]

I understand what you are trying to say, however, I hoestly wonder if a reporter from the D&C would have seen it quite the same way as you would have. You run Philadelphialacrosse.com, a fan oriented site related to Philly lacrosse. If a Rochester Lacrosse sight existed, I wonder if the commentary would have been more geared towards the fan involved, and the arena security, which in this incident clearly didn't do its job.
There is a Rochester Lacrosse site. If you care to check it out, its www.gonzo.rochesterlacrosse.com.

But if you noticed, I did mention about the fan. And if you noticed, I never said that I saw anything. But, several of my writers did, and the fans in and around the area in which I was sitting at the time did as well. I can't give you my personal account of what happened, but from all the accounts I heard from people who did see it, and from what the league has been saying about the incident, it leaves me to believe it actually happened, and there is a reason to think that there was a possibility there was some indecent exposure.

[SDS416]

Well, I guess this was a whole lot of nothing. JGjr. got a 1 game suspension (which he served last night as Rochester whipped Minnesota in Rochester) from the league. According to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle article in todays newspaper, NO LEAGUE OFFICIAL testified to seeing the action of which JGjr. was accuused of making, and the whole hearing was called based upon some complaints to the league from a few Philadelphia fans, 2 of whom testified during the arbitration hearing on Tuesday via conference call. NO video evidence was presented by any party.
I guess the NLL is as full of crap as I thought they were and this whole thread was nothing more than some sour grapes by a bunch of Philly "homers"

[Hooligan]

SDS, Don't go blaming this all on some Philly "homers" (as I'm certain that comment was directed at me). Grant's situation was real. But I'm going to chalk this up to yet again an NLL inconsistency. Want to see lacrosse become a mainstream sport (at least on the professional ranks)? Then its time that someone in power for either league grows a pair. Until then, players can dictate where, when, and how they play, just by shoving their individual or collective weight around.

Now, don't take that comment wrong, I have no problem with any player. But when the inmates run the assylum, you tend to have nothing but problems. Thats the NLL's situation right now. Sit back and watch how this latest situation becomes yet another forgotten saga, that will go down in the history books...right next to how Pat Coyle was expelled from the MILL, but not in the NLL. *sigh*

BTW...there was video evidence. The front office can "officially state" what they want.

[LL71]

well it's all done with now, jr did his time and the hawks still beat the p*** out of the swarm and hopefully they can keep it up.


Hooligan
Today 09:32 AM SDS, Don't go blaming this all on some Philly "homers" (as I'm certain that comment was directed at me). Grant's situation was real. But I'm going to chalk this up to yet again an NLL inconsistency. Want to see lacrosse become a mainstream sport (at least on the professional ranks)? Then its time that someone in power for either league grows a pair. Until then, players can dictate where, when, and how they play, just by shoving their individual or collective weight around.

Now, don't take that comment wrong, I have no problem with any player. But when the inmates run the assylum, you tend to have nothing but problems. Thats the NLL's situation right now. Sit back and watch how this latest situation becomes yet another forgotten saga, that will go down in the history books...right next to how Pat Coyle was expelled from the MILL, but not in the NLL. *sigh*

BTW...there was video evidence. The front office can "officially state" what they want.

I totally agree, I think the league will start [hopefully, and not because of this insident(sp?)] take contol of what goes down on the floor.......

[SDS416]

SDS, Don't go blaming this all on some Philly "homers" (as I'm certain that comment was directed at me). Grant's situation was real. But I'm going to chalk this up to yet again an NLL inconsistency. Want to see lacrosse become a mainstream sport (at least on the professional ranks)? Then its time that someone in power for either league grows a pair. Until then, players can dictate where, when, and how they play, just by shoving their individual or collective weight around.

Now, don't take that comment wrong, I have no problem with any player. But when the inmates run the assylum, you tend to have nothing but problems. Thats the NLL's situation right now. Sit back and watch how this latest situation becomes yet another forgotten saga, that will go down in the history books...right next to how Pat Coyle was expelled from the MILL, but not in the NLL. *sigh*

BTW...there was video evidence. The front office can "officially state" what they want.

Look at the facts of this: this case was heard by an arbitraitor, a NEUTRAL 3rd party, with no vested interest in how this case was resolved. Both parties in the dispute had the opportunity to present all the evidence they wished to in order to prove their case. If the league had all this proof, videotape, eyewitness accounts from league officials, media members and fans in attendence as everyone claims they did, then this should have been a slam dunk case where the league would have easily won. In the end, no video was presented, no league officials could testify that they saw this act personally, and all the league could produce in terms of witnesses were 2 people, one of whom I understand was the person who was ejected in the first place for his role in the situation. And I think the ruling pretty well summarizes the whole situation: that this was an overblown load of BS. BTW, the reason JGjr. got the suspension he did was for throwing a cup of water into the crowd.
All this whole situation, and in fact this thread was IMHO, was a bunch of Philly "homers" and JGjr. haters finding a BS excuse to heap a bunch of lies and charcter slams against him, all under the poor excuse of some moral afrontary that the league and the world must be protected from. And the sad part of it IMHO is that now the whole manufactured case has been exposed for what it was, its easier to blame the league for not making this joke of a case stand up to the sniff test of a independent 3rd party.

[powellfan1]

The whole stupid "incident" is over. It seems to me that nobody here really knows what is going on. Grant's suspension is over and it made minimal news. If anyone had hoped that the K-Hawks would lose because of this, they scored the most goals in a game in the last 2 years. So either way here, neither party wins and the situation is over. I'm hoping I won't have to read this anymore.

[RockStar]

The whole stupid "incident" is over. It seems to me that nobody here really knows what is going on. Grant's suspension is over and it made minimal news. If anyone had hoped that the K-Hawks would lose because of this, they scored the most goals in a game in the last 2 years. So either way here, neither party wins and the situation is over. I'm hoping I won't have to read this anymore.

Funniest thing was that they lost the game that Grant played.(Losing the season series to Minnesota in the process :rofl: )

Then they took Grant out of the lineup, and lookie here, the offense played better than they had all year.

Maybe the answer is that Grant doesn't need to touch the ball twice every shot clock.....when you've got Williams and Accursi, why would he? Shaking things up every now and then is always a good idea.

In five years of being the coach, Paul Day has had talent-loaded offenses, but seemingly hasn't figured out that routing the attack through the same guy every shift has mixed results at best.

Assistant coach Eddie Comeau knows this (he was a big part in developing the defense scheme that shut Grant down and won Toronto the 2003 championship).....wonder if he's just not telling Day, or if Day's just not listening.

[powellfan1]

I agree RockStar, Grant touches the ball way too much. Sometimes he is even a ball hog and will just hold for 5 seconds or not pass and do all of that fake pass crap. He is probably the best passer in the league from what I've seen. The problem is that nobody cuts at all when he has it. Yesterday just showed that Grant isn't needed to get 7 points a game. He could take a smaller role. The team made the playoffs last year without him anyway.

[Hooligan]

Locking this thread because its just not going to ever be productive...

Split the discussion about Philly from this thread and placed it in the Open Forum...under the same name as this thread (I hate the fact I can't change the title of the thread). Feel free to continue the discussion there!