Brine succesfully Sued STX for 1.9M.

[CDLax2]

Here is the link to the article: http://www.lax.com/stories/1150


What do you think?

[ampedxpinoy]

what the hell.....greedy *******s. wouldnt they be able to sue warrior also technically? what is trhe exact patent? an offset head?

[jmplax31]

OMG, that is some crazy s**t

[CDLax2]

"what the hell.....greedy *******s. wouldnt they be able to sue warrior also technically? what is trhe exact patent? an offset head?"



I dnt know, something like that, the whole thing is crazy to begin with

[laxcrazy]

wtf:wtf over offset heads, and their trying to get them to take the Proton and X2 off the market:bs :wtf Then why aren't they suing Warrior too. Warrior has offset heads!:wtf :bs :omg

[CDLax2]

b/c warrior didnt supposedly "infringe" on the patents

[laxcrazy]

my vocabulary isn't all that big but what does "infringe" mean?

[CDLax2]

to go against the rules of something, in this case a patent

[lesSspike]

ya we better save all of our stx sticks they might make a collectors item 50 years from now lol. But ya it sucks that they might go out of busiess. Brine would definatly lose my business and probably lots of other ppl's businese too.

[CDLax2]

I now hate Brine, they should die

[laxcrazy]

brine sucks @$$ anyways, onlything thing they ever did besides coming up with the offset stuff, only other things they did was the shafts, which are OK, and the Edge, and that is all they did!

[CDLax2]

i would credit them with supercrosses
but they did come up with the original, the classic, first offset head ever created-they revolutionized the game but now they suck ****

[attacklax]

im not a big fan of stx or brine. so i am pretty impartial about this subject. but i dont see why the brine company has to be jerky about how other companies make their heads. them tryin to put stx out of business is not going to help the lacrosse world in any way.

[BuckWyld]

warrior may have paid brine to use their patents or it may be that Brine thought that STX was the weaker of the two and that they had a better chance of winning that case

[bigDman]

brines always sucked cept the edge

[MiddieMan]

Thats pretty stupid....trying to knock STX out of the market...greedy

[laxcrazy]

really, i think STX is catching up with competition, with the Profile out, i know that will be a big hit! But shoot, with all the money STX has, they could pay it

[Fogo 8]

DOWN WITH STX, BRINE IS TIIIGHT

[lizlax22]

hey i love brine but i would realy hate to see stx go

[bigOHlax]

and people called warrior greedy
at least they never sued another company

i just don't get why they did it

[lizlax22]

it says that stx also sued brine and warrior b4 too

[BuckWyld]

one company sueing another is part of business like it or not. The one thing that suprises me is that the article seems to think that this will bankrupt STX. In this day 1.9 million is not that much money

[lizlax22]

but remember stx is't exactly microsoft

[Aussie_kid]

it's too over the top offset heads cmon!
Brine should just be happy that they started the offset head.
Over the top

[bigDman]

I TOLD THEM TO WATCH OUT FOR BRINE

[laxattack]

ok screw this....no proton, or x2 anymore..........F*CK THAT, I WILL BOYCOTT BRINE PRODUCTS FOREVER........

[WestSideLa X eR]

This isnt only brine, its all 3 companies. And it says stx makes around 10 mil, so 2 mil would be alot. Its not only brine, all 3 companies have been suing.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

maybe if brine made a decent or new design it would help too!!!


Long live stx and debeer!!!!!!!!

down w/ brine!

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

how can the hockey companies get along in a sport where there's a million companies... and then in lax there's like 3 or 4 and then like 2 crappy ones nobody uses, and brine, stx and warrior have like the 90% share of the market and complain, you don't hear easton complain over everybody's one piece sticks...

[laxattack]

sorry i have to refute my claim.... as i reviewed the article i noticed that the stx rep is very confident that the patent inforcement will not stand due to certain restrictions or whatnot.... but anywho cant this be compared to the first automobile manufacturer who used electronic windows suing there direct compitition after a long period of dormancy? that kind of thing doesnt happen in the auto industry, why should it in the lax industry. and if im not mistaken, isnt stx still allowed to manufacture there heads as long as they pay a royalty to brine?

[smitt5168]

i'm gettin a profile before they get taken off of the shelfs. stupid greedy brine. what's the difference going to be. they'll keep the sticks the same they'll just make them straight heads. it'll just make stx lovers go back to the fundamentals of lax. LONG LIVE STX!!!

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

whoever said warrior didn't sue anybody read up on why heads like the xcalibur and curved heads left the market due to warrior!

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

dude...they won't go off the shelves, they're gonna have to sue debeer...shamrock..warrior... mohawk...all of them for the same thing.... the truth is, stx made a totally different offset!!!!!

as if brine wa the first to think up offset,

golf companies should sue BRINE!!!!! Golf was probably the first place the term offset was used in sports

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

pffff. and as if brine never ripped of stx with shafts , gloves, open sidewalls, shoulder pads, and pockets!

down with brine, rather than sue, how bout doing what the others are doing and think up something new, rather than pushing the stupid edge for the last like 10 yrs.!!!!

[Dan]

i'm confused. my goal has been to start my own company for a few years. i mean, when i'm out of college. does this mean that i won't be able to have open sidewalls or offset heads? i would like to know pretty bad, because i want to start a successful company after college.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

nah that's garbage! Its not the first time brine's tried this and stx has tried otherwise!!!!! they tried to sue warior and them with the open sidewall, if this goes down, it means the govt just handed brine the lax monopoly, and i will buy out evry freggin triton and proton left in the world beforei convert to an edge....

.... stx breeds innovation and so does debeer, brine milks off a patent from 10 years ago, they can make a case stating that their offset and designs are 100% different from the crap brine's put out over andover and over!!!!! (edge, aeoro matrix... cyber is the only real change ever,!)

prepare to start your company to, just make sure you don't use the same exact offset as brine and patent your stuff before it'll hit the shelf!

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

plz note my new signature and all canadian ppl read my new thread in the canada section.....

[Dan]

well, you have to look at the offset design. i tried reading the patent, but blah blah blah i'll care later. brine has an offset that slopes down in the part nearest the throat. i imagine they're suing stx for doing the same thing. debeer and warrior have unique offsets, at least debeer does. i don't understand why brine is suing, you'd think that there'd be plenty of lawsuits flying around with all the similar equipment, but i guess we'll see.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

indeed, and thanks for acknowledging that debeer does indeed seperate itself from the gang!

[laxattack]

but stx offset isnt really even an offset.... ill draw i diagram to contrast the 2.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

yeah i know lax attack, which is one of the reason i am pissed about this, brine being really freggin retarded here

[laxattack]

if youll notice the fact that stx heads are not offset but actually "redirected at about a 20 degree angle from the shaft. brine simply drops a strait head down an inch and calls it offset

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

toucher lax attack...and my research has proven that STX actually has the first us patent for a two wall synthetic lax stick....


.... so stx can sue brine for even having made a synthetic lax stick in the first place!!!!!

it says so in the time line and company history on the stx website for the curious one!

http://www.stxlacrosse.com/home.html

read the year 1970 attentitively!

[CHMiddie]

Originally posted by Fogo 8
DOWN WITH STX, BRINE IS TIIIGHT

:werd

[Dan]

pgr, stx worked a deal with brine back then that allowed them to use the plastic head. this was when brine sponsored johns hopkins. you can find this in bob scott's "Lacrosse". i don't know how the whole thing works legally. also, let's think here a moment in defense of brine.

let's say it's '94, and you just came out with the offset head, a brand new unheardof design. BAM stx copies it with the proton, and your edge on the market is gone. (no pun intended) nobody copied cascade when they came out with their helmet in '97. they had utter dominance until about 2001 or 2002 when stryke arrived. the thing about that was that helmets are far easier to innovate. of course they couldn't complain. the helmet was basically unlike theirs. either that, or they had an undetailed patents that allowed stryke to make their own helmet. i'm betting brine has an ultra specific patent that pretty much guarentees them the rights to the offset. perhaps warrior pays royalties.

if stryke or cascade or gait copied the triad's oc-loc system i wouldn't doubt or denounce brine from suing anyone of them. i just don't know the whole offset history. the thing about this is is that we are coming from an angle where we don't know the legal history of these two companies. we don't know how long this has been going on or how many lawsuits have been filed. we can't fairly judge either.

[FredtheCat]

You can't call Brine greedy for making a business move that will help their company. I'm sure that if any of you owned a major business and another company infringed on a patent of yours, you would do the exact same thing.

[shooter]

There are only a few good lax companies, and one of tem has just slaughtered another in the court room.
I know that its a buisness but if brine want to get rid of STX then do by creating new gear, innovating new designs, by making better crap. NOT by hiring better lawyers.
Now STX are gonna have less money for advertising, research, production, paying workers, they may still have money left but they are goping to have to cutback on everything, slowing down the companies growth and damaging their chance of survival. They may even have to fire people.
I know STX have sued brine and warrior in the past, so maybe they were asking for it. But all the companies should settle their differences in the stores selling good gear, not in the courtroom killing each other financially.

[Alex]

This lawsuit is bulls.hit for 2 reasons. First, is you can patent only the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. Meaning you can patent the design of the edge but not the concept of offset advantage. Look at the link they give you for the STX vs Brine/Warrior for the open sidewall head, it was deemed a crock (yes that's a legal term) and it's basically the same lawsuit. Secondly is Brine didn't even invent the concept of the offset head, the Gaits were the first recorded to start bending shafts, Brine even put that on the Edge labeling (if they don't still now, I haven't looked recently). The Edge remains my favorite head, but Brine has headed the way of Warrior recently with overpriced products, I guess this lawsuit isn't terribly indicative since the STX suit above is the same thing, and Warrior successfully sued StX over the Raptor (maybe that was a legit one, too late to think about it :P), so I suppose it's fair game in the market. But if STX has decent lawyers Brine shouldn't see a dime of their money for this.

[longpole3661]

Brine blows!!!
The only good thing they have our gloves, but you can by those from any company. Stx is the best lax company ever if stx goes out of buisness most lax stuff will suck

[CHMiddie]

IMO ur wrong. stx is just another company to me. i do not find anything they make more appealing than WARRIOR. none of their pads impress me. none of their gloves. and def. none of their sticks. most lax stuff will probably get better seeing as brine can now put the money they won into developing better sticks instead of finding ways to stick a piece of rubber in everything.

now ide be sad to see the proton or X2 go which i look at as stx's best achievements.

[Stopper22]

Originally posted by MiddieMan
Thats pretty stupid....trying to knock STX out of the market...greedy yeah greedy, thats what bussiness is. you all cant get all upset about this. Thats what happens in bussiness. STX should have known better than to infringe on the offset head. Its STX's fault not Brine. Look at it this way. If you owned Brine and had a patent and one of your rivals infringed on the patent and was making money that could be yours you would do the same thing. You would try to get the most money for yourself. So easy does it boys

[Dan]

i definitely have to disagree about brine becoming expensive. if anything, they're becoming cheaper. guys, i know this may take more time, but it helps the rest of us if you base your opinions on facts. for example, the brine element gloves are high quality at a low price. all of their new elbow/arm pads are about ten or more dollars cheaper, and the x-factor gels are 30 dollars cheaper. you can't judge the triad yet, not until it's used by tons of people, at least 1/3 or the lacrosse population. brand new products are not good ways of judging prices.

so folks, i may be the only one who likes examples, but just put the little bit of effort it takes to legitimatize your opinion, even if i do disagree. and once again, we don't know the whole history of this ordeal.

[Reinholds]

yes, we shall lead a march of stx fans up to the brine plant and burn it down then piss on the ashes of the smashed factory

[Alex]

As far as the shaft bending goes, it does impact it somewhat because then Brine can argue neither that they invented the concept of offset nor can they patent the idea (the Gait part affects the first of those). Again, Brine can only patent the expression, not the concept, see my last post for that. As far as Brine being more expensive goes, yeah you're probably right there, my statement was a bit misguided, I suppose I took the Prophecy (an overpriced gimmick) out of context, I haven't had a chance to try on the new gloves to see if they perform well for the value but that may be so, and although their comparable shafts are more expensive than debeers they aren't grotesquely expensive ala Warrior. So forgive me on that one :P

[Greener]

All I know that for beginners, such as me, you don't really care what you use yet. I don't care if my gloves are heavy or not, I don't care if my slash gaurds are heavy. I have a pair of used hockey shoulder pads, my kidney pads are stx, but only because thats really the only size big enough for me, the same goes with my slash gaurds, and I think my gloves are a pair of STX PG 22 which I bought off my teamate for $5 my first year playing, he said he would practily give them to me.

At the time I was using a pair of 5 year old hockey gloves which were falling apart and he let me try them out one game during a tourney, then later that night at out hotel I bought them from him.

anyways I don't care about lightness, all I care is that they are somewhat cheap, and durable for about 3 years.

[broslax16]

GAY!!!!!!!!!!, i mean i understand that they want to have a level of competition but thats stupid to sue them for so much that theyll have to go out of business

[bigdumplings]

i like the vector alot at least its not going to be taken off the market

[ampedxpinoy]

ok so if it is the patent for OFFSET.....stx heads have the cant still.....it is not parallel to shaft below the level...its tilted backwards. which is y its called a CANT and not OFFSET. anyway.....this was just when stx finally relased new heads that aren't stupid. the profile is getting popular already. stx is getting their name back after their failed heads from last year. at least stx tries to make innovations. brine started doin experimental stuff like the prophecy after the liquid came out. technically its the same kind of. im not sure. but brine makes an innovation, after stx has, and see whcih one is better. and they patent it.

[laxattack]

Originally posted by laxattack
if youll notice the fact that stx heads are not offset but actually "redirected at about a 20 degree angle from the shaft. brine simply drops a strait head down an inch and calls it offset

made that statement...:dummy

[Alex]

Originally posted by Greener
All I know that for beginners, such as me, you don't really care what you use yet. I don't care if my gloves are heavy or not, I don't care if my slash gaurds are heavy. I have a pair of used hockey shoulder pads, my kidney pads are stx, but only because thats really the only size big enough for me, the same goes with my slash gaurds, and I think my gloves are a pair of STX PG 22 which I bought off my teamate for $5 my first year playing, he said he would practily give them to me.

At the time I was using a pair of 5 year old hockey gloves which were falling apart and he let me try them out one game during a tourney, then later that night at out hotel I bought them from him.

anyways I don't care about lightness, all I care is that they are somewhat cheap, and durable for about 3 years.

Wow, I would bet you're in the minority as far as new players and equip go. When I coached under 10 they all wanted titanium and a matrix (which was the new head that year), it's good that you realize its not that important. Get gloves that are the proper size, a pocket that throws straight, and arm pads that work comfortably and you're good to go until like 8th grade, about that time I needed to get better arm guards since dmen started throwing better checks.

[Greener]

Originally posted by Alex
Wow, I would bet you're in the minority as far as new players and equip go. When I coached under 10 they all wanted titanium and a matrix (which was the new head that year), it's good that you realize its not that important. Get gloves that are the proper size, a pocket that throws straight, and arm pads that work comfortably and you're good to go until like 8th grade, about that time I needed to get better arm guards since dmen started throwing better checks.

I only started playing in the 9th grade ( for us it isn't highschool but rather age groups, i was in U-16 that year), when I first started playing box I had STX slashgaurds because that was really the only thing there, that was big enough and not too expensive. I am only looking at getting a new shaft because the one I have no wont stand a chance in Jr box this year. I'm not to sure about my current head, might get a new one. so I don't care whether or not its the newest pair, and its the pair that everybody has, if it fits and is fairly cheap, and I know it will last, I'll get them.

[baxlax]

to greener: if you want any advice on your equipment just let us know

about the lawsuit...
what heads will this affect then? proton x2 bionic and profile?
prolly their new ****ty ones from last year, but i dont even count those

if the bionic proton and x2 are taken off the market, there wont be a good defensive head out there

[laxcrazy]

if they take the profile off the market...ugh....i will find my own way to sue Brine!

[jmplax31]

This story has been out for a couple days now, so I want to know why no other lax web site has said anything about it.

[CDLax2]

Originally posted by baxlax
to greener: if you want any advice on your equipment just let us know

about the lawsuit...
what heads will this affect then? proton x2 bionic and profile?
prolly their new ****ty ones from last year, but i dont even count those

if the bionic proton and x2 are taken off the market, there wont be a good defensive head out there

the lawsuit will effect the
x2
proton
octane(sp?)

[Dan]

yeah, sp's right. kids, upon looking more closely at that picture, the edge and the proton's offset are for more similar. yes, the proton does slope down, but it becomes parallel to the shaft about midway through the head. the difference between that and the edge is that the parallel comes at a later point. i'm guessing the x2 and the octane do the same thing. the offsets are far more similar than you guys care to see. am i the only one fighting this battle?

[8-ball]

im actually surpised that it didnt end up being delt with out of court. personally im not a big STX fan, but things like this will happen newhere.

[defensemanrule]

You know why Brine did this? Because they have No good heads! All Brine is is a worthless company at the back of the line. Hah, I wouldn`t be suprised if they had to pay people to come to their camps!:angry . STX is so much better than Brine, and STX`s equiptment is a lot more durable. Brine sucks!:cussing

[defensemanrule]

They take Bionic or Profile off the market and I wouln`t only find a better way to boycott then(which I already have been doing)but I`ll find my own way to help STX.

[laxattack]

covert ops to slit the brine corprate leaders throats, and there lawyers.... jk dont take this litterally!! :laugh

[RockStar]

No comment about the lawsuit, don't know who was first, or whether STX did swipe the design. All I know is that every company makes offset heads, so its funny that only one competitor was sued. What about Warrior, Mohawk, DeBeer, Shamrock........They've all got offset heads too!

(Hell, it seems very few still put any energy into straight heads. you can't even hardly find a straight head for advanced players anymore!)

One other thing I know is that if Brine didn't keep making ultra-light heads out of recycled pop bottles that feel like a noodle or a cheap spatula on the end of the stick, then they'd have a bigger market share. The Matrix is pretty nice, but I've never cared for most of the rest of their heads.

[ampedxpinoy]

well STX is their main competitor. MAYBE debeer will be next if brine wins. who knows. warrior is too big to compete against. so STX and Debeer are the only companies they can sue. Mohawk and Shamrock are pretty small companies so they dont have to worry about them that much.

[RockStar]

Originally posted by LaxMiddie32
The gaits have nothing to do with it. First, they bent SHAFTS, not heads. And even if they did bend heads, they never patented anything.

Bending a shaft like the Gaits used to has exactly the same effect as an offset head - the plane of the top sidewall ends up below the centre of the shaft. In fact, DeBeer still sells an offset shaft packaged with a relatively straight head (Phantom).

Someone else also touched on a key issue - you can't patent something that's just a concept (i.e. offset heads). That's like patenting the process of using coffee grounds and hot water to make a drink, ridiculous when you think about it. (although US courts have upheld some pretty ridiculous patents lately).

What you can patent is certain key design features that make your offset head different from the other ones on the market....angle of offset, distance from bottom of head until offset starts, length, width, pinch, sidewall design, scoop angle, etc. Don't know if STX ripped off key design features or not, but simply designing and fabricating their own offset heads should not be a patent infringement.

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

i've said it many a times, offset was used in golf before lacrosse, its a concept that made sense taken from golf really.... brine patented the name offset and the edge design, not the greggin concept... if they did ...king cobra and ping and all them could sue brine....

[BuckWyld]

I think that some people are not looking at this issue objectively, if you had come up with the idea of offset heads and stx ripped it off you would be pissed. Also I think that if brine wins the case they will be force to sue the other companies because I dont think that patents stand up if you selectivly defend them.

[stegmakk]

Rockstar got the point nailed...You can patent certain design features that make your product unique etc...
If the courts rule FOR brine (don't see why)...Then the next phase would be if STX wants to continue to produce the infringing sticks, Brine could demand patent royalties...or STX could just drop these sticks and go with something else...
And lastly...one can not patent a name...you can trademark or copywright such a thing...but patents are only concerned with design...

[Alex]

Originally posted by Greener
I only started playing in the 9th grade ( for us it isn't highschool but rather age groups, i was in U-16 that year), when I first started playing box I had STX slashgaurds because that was really the only thing there, that was big enough and not too expensive. I am only looking at getting a new shaft because the one I have no wont stand a chance in Jr box this year. I'm not to sure about my current head, might get a new one. so I don't care whether or not its the newest pair, and its the pair that everybody has, if it fits and is fairly cheap, and I know it will last, I'll get them.

Yeah, I haven't played a ton of box but I have heard from those who do that a dedicated box shaft is necessarily to last the long haul. When I played it I used an old F15 which is practically indestructable, they don't make em like they used to tho :P I would ask one of the Canadians on the board which box shaft is worth it, I know debeer makes a db803 box which might not be priced too badly, and there are a ton of others.

[FredtheCat]

Bah, y'all should stop complaining. STX will prolly come out with some amazing new design for heads that will crush Brine and Warrior sticks. Or maybe they'll just go out of business. :clap

[laxcrazy]

n0oo0o0o, I say we start a petetion on Brine and send it to them !

[CDLax2]

were not complaining we are discussing/debating lol
and no I dont think stx will come out with a head so amazing that it will crush brine and warrior- no head could but two entire companies out of biz
They will mostly likely go out of business if you look at the article they already lost 1.9 million and could lose 5.7 million more and based on annual profits this is a huge blow. I hope they dont tho- they are a great company

[ampedxpinoy]

yea. the profit stx makes isn't that much considering lacrosse is not a huge sport with only a few thousand players each year buying equipment.
did anyone ever say why brine choose STX over debeer, shamrock, and warrior?

[CDLax2]

probably its biggest rival

[defensemanrule]

No, Brine started it. They sued, but I think Brine has to get over it, they aren`t the best yet(niether is Warrior) so they should just try their best, because STX isn`t the best, and DeBeer is not either. So they should just go with the flow, why they put a TM on the "offset" of all their heads I woln`t know, but it sure was something to save money, I bet.

[RockStar]

Originally posted by Alex
....I would ask one of the Canadians on the board which box shaft is worth it, I know debeer makes a db803 box which might not be priced too badly, and there are a ton of others.

I've got ash handles on two of my sticks, and I like it best by far. Nothing cracks heads like lumber! Increased checking power better ball retention (more weight to absorb a check), and really not even any heavier than a fat-boy. You also get wicked durability for a fraction of the price of these exotic metal things.... I can buy 5 or more shamrock ash-poles for the price of one TI shaft.

For my wussy masters league, I lighten up a bit. I prefer the cheap DeBeer triax 6000. This thing is by far the strongest $20 shaft out there. Since there's so little hitting in masters, there's no need for expensive shafts. The cheapies last for years.

[CDLax2]

Originally posted by LaxMiddie32
Tell me how Brine started it. And if they didnt patent offset, someone else would patent it, then brine would be forced to pay royalties to them.

I dont know, read the article again