Goalie Fouls and game situations

[zebra618]

I'm a first year LAX official, with about 25 games under my belt.
I would like to hear from some more "seasoned" officials about what they might have done in this situation:

About 2:30 left in the 4th period.
Score is tied 4-4.
Team A scores.
Team B goalie bangs his stick against the pipe, then throws it down in front of himself.
No one really close to being hit by the thrown stick.

I ruled a 1 minute US.
The coach of Team B was very controlled, and asked "Why I would call a penalty on his goalie in a 1 point game?"

What is your call?

Thanks!

[shrekjr]

I'm a first year LAX official, with about 25 games under my belt.

I ruled a 1 minute US.
The coach of Team B was very controlled, and asked "Why I would call a penalty on his goalie in a 1 point game?"
First, welcome to the jungle of officiating.

While the coach may or may not be asking a valid question, it is up to you to determine whether or not the goalie's actions should be penalized. Over time, you will learn when to make the call and when to "not see it".

In this case, I certainly can't make that determination without being there and seeing it and using my best judgement as to the degree and severity of the goalie's anger and subsequent throwing of the stick. On the surface, it sounds like you did the right thing. There is a big difference in the stick being dropped in frustration vs. being physically thrown in disgust. Somewhere in the middle is the line that you have to decide was crossed. And your line may be different than my line.

When I first started, there was an experienced referee who used to say all the time, "You are being paid to make decisions. Make one." If you decide the actions justified you giving him a penalty, so be it. It isn't your fault he did what he did!

I'm sure what the coach was really getting at was that we usually tend to allow a little more late in a close game and he probably wasn't happy that his team just fell behind and was now also going to lose their goalie. I'll say it would take something severe for me to put a player down during the last two minutes of a close game, but again, if they get themselves in that situation, it isn't your fault, unless you don't make the call that needs to be made!

Clear as mud? Welcome to officiating. :bye:

[Shorelax]

My question - Where did he throw his stick?? On the ground in fromt of him??

If the goalie threw his stick down within the crease during a deadball. No foul language or jestering. I wouldnt call it. That doesnt mean you didnt make the right call. You were there

[LaxRef]

About 2:30 left in the 4th period.
Score is tied 4-4.
Team A scores.
Team B goalie bangs his stick against the pipe, then throws it down in front of himself.
No one really close to being hit by the thrown stick.

Well, like everyone else says, it depends, and I wasn't there. I'd be more inclined to call it a USC for a lower-level game (maybe in HS, probably in JV, definitely in youth), and I probably wouldn't call it in college. However, if I didn't call it a USC, I'd sure as heck call it illegal procedure (throwing the crosse) and award possession. That way, you send the message that you saw it and you think it's unacceptable, but you avoid some of the other problems. Plus, team A now has the lead and the ball; that's pretty significant.

But if you thought it was USC, that's the call for you to make.

[eme]

Talk to the goalie, but no call. You've now probably killed any chance they had of getting back in the game with an USC penalty.

[Snake~eyes]

I think we as Officials over look a key fact way too much, sports have a lot of emotion in them. Players are going to react, sometimes good sometimes bad. Here we have a bad reaction, but the reaction is not severe(or atleast it doesn't so like it it is). We cannot take emotions out of the game, we have to teach players how to control themselves. Our flag is not the only weapon in our arsenal, often times we tell a player to "get stick" by using our mouth. In these cases we are often too quick to react and need to slow down before making a decision.

I have had what you described happen to me a couple of times. In this scenario I would have verbally told the player that he needs to calm down. And I would not threaten the player either like "do that again and it will be a penalty!" I would have walked up to him and said "I know you're frustrated but you need to keep your head in the game."




Talk to the goalie, but no call. You've now probably killed any chance they had of getting back in the game with an USC penalty.
So the score matters on whether you will call this a USC or not? Just curious on your philosophy.

[CoachRob]

I agree with Snake and LaxRef. That call turned a close game into a definite loss. He was upset, and that's acceptable. He threw his stick; call IP and award possession. Sending him to the box when he didn't hit anybody, violently throw his stick at anybody or interfere with play, or otherwise influence the game in any manner is maybe excessive. I wasn't there of course, but I would think that was a bit harsh on your part. But it is YOUR decision, and I wouldn't apologize to the coach if in retrospect you realized you were too harsh. It's over, and you may have learned something.

The NCAA B-ball tournament is a perfect example. As the games move on, and get more important, what was a foul becomes a warning. You simply don't want a team going to the Final Four because of some questionable official's call. In the round of 64, it's more acceptable. In the Elite 8, you need to give a little leeway, Of course,a hard foul is always a hard foul. We're talking about soft calls here.

When officials get more recognition than the players, "Houston, we have a problem."

[LaxRef]

I agree with Snake and LaxRef. That call turned a close game into a definite loss. He was upset, and that's acceptable. He threw his stick; call IP and award possession. Sending him to the box when he didn't hit anybody, violently throw his stick at anybody or interfere with play, or otherwise influence the game in any manner is maybe excessive.

Don't you think the level of the game should matter somewhat? I think in a youth game you should be more likely to call the USC in the same way you call the "uncontrolled stick" more tightly in a youth game. You're trying to get the kids to learn the standards of behavior; if they don't learn when they're young, they're just going to be a bunch of jerks when they're older and it will be too late to do much about it, at least IMHO.

Some of it depends, too, on how much of a scene the goalie is making. If he's just blowing off some steam, probably I just call the IP. But if he's attempting to draw attention to himself ("Hey everybody! Look at me! I just let up a goal and I'm ANGRY! Watch, I'll hit the goal and slam my stick into the ground so everyone pays attention to me!") then the USC might be warranted.

I think in most cases, the IP is enough of a penalty and it sends the message, and sometimes you might even pass on that.

Personally, I wouldn't let the score influence my call anymore that I would let it influence a slash call. If I call a slash with a minute to play in a close game, did I prevent the other team from getting back in the game, or did the kid who made the slash do it?

[farside268]

Instead of IP, couldn't you call a conduct foul on him? Same effect as IP, but makes it clear that the foul is because of his conduct.

[LaxRef]

Instead of IP, couldn't you call a conduct foul on him? Same effect as IP, but makes it clear that the foul is because of his conduct.

You can't really call the conduct foul in this situation anymore. They've changed the language in the past few years; see

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=15814

[lax save man]

welll im no ref but i do play golie and i have a very strong oppion on this. i do not want our sport to become like foot ball. i would have made the same call. we need to keep sore losers out of our sport. now im not saying that iv never done it but im saying iv stoped doing it and it dameges your stick. plus it makes it look OK to be un sports man like

[CoachRob]

Personally, I wouldn't let the score influence my call anymore that I would let it influence a slash call. If I call a slash with a minute to play in a close game, did I prevent the other team from getting back in the game, or did the kid who made the slash do it?

A slash is a whole different beast due to the potential for injury. A kid throwing his stick TO THE GROUND in anger when it doesn't hit anybody, interfere with play, etc, is not akin to whacking somebody in the head no matter WHAT the score.

There are some discretionary calls and some mandatory calls due to intent. Are you really going to call an incidental offside (a foot touches the line) during a blow-out with 30 seconds left, or ar you going to say "Oops, didn't see that one Coach" and get off the field with the score 13-1? Fouls with the potential for injury simply are different, IMHO. I think you agree LR.

DISCRETION is the better part of valor and is one of the best tools a ref has at his disposal. It is the principle behind escalating calls (conduct foul against the coach progresses to USC, etc.)

We were up 6-4 in a game this past weekend with 1:15 left when we called for a tiime-out. the official came over and said "Coach, come on, do you really need to do this?" We did because our team needed to know about the "Keep it in" rule, which we had not had a chance to discuss with them yet. But I saw his point. At some point, unless there's mayhem, best to get off the field and let incidentals fall where they may, keeping in mind that things may escalate. But a GK throwing his crosse in disgust is not likely to cause a retaliatory incident.

[zebra618]

Many thanks for all of the comments! In retrospect, I think that that a word to the goalie would have been better - and I will be adding a new phrase to my pre-game line-up, "Teams keep your cool and do not abuse your stick by banging against the goal or on the ground" ;)