3-man? [Archive] - The Lacrosse Forums

LaxRef

04-01-2005, 03:20 PM

In Indiana, 3-man happens in the post-season for high school and for the occasional "big game" during the regular season if the host school is willing to pay for a third official. In Minnesota, at least a few years ago, 3-man started in the quarterfinals of the state tournament.

I'd love to see the state lacrosse associations budget for doing a few "big games" with 3 officials during end of the season so that people would have some recent 3-man experience before the playoffs. Sometimes I think we'd get better officiating with two playoff officials since we could focus better on the game and not the mechanics. This may be even more true now since we won't have any current experience at all doing high school rules and 3-man mechanics.

rilax

04-01-2005, 03:23 PM

RI is 2 man for the regular season

We did 3 man for the championship game since it started for the NFHS league the state has and for the semi-finals last year. We did split into two divisions each with there own championship but I don’t think there is been a determination of what games will be 3.

The private school leagues have 2 man the whole season (and NCAA rules)

shrekjr

04-01-2005, 11:46 PM

Texas is mostly 3-man for playoffs and 2-man regular season. There is occasionally a third man in some of the bigger games if requested by the teams.

farside268

04-02-2005, 08:42 AM

I guess we're fortunate. In western PA, almost all varsity games have three officials on them. The sport is still relatively young here, but we've been fortunate to be able to recruit a lot of officials. I'm only in my first year though, so it doesn't impact me a great deal.

EdT

04-02-2005, 11:10 AM

LaxRef

04-02-2005, 11:59 AM

Way out west here in Washington state, where the growth in lacrosse is 20% each year for the last five years, we feel fortunate to get two officials at each high school game, although I have done a few one-man varsity contests. Yuck. We do use three-man mechanics for the playoffs.

The explosive growth of lacrosse can be a real problem. Some states cap the number of new teams that can be added each year to avoid trouble with, among other things, expanding more quickly than officials can be recruited and trained. Sometimes they put in requirements like "Each team must recruit one new official," but the teams don't follow through and there's no enforcement.

My idea was this: Bump up the league fees for each team, but give a partial refund to each team that recruits a new official that completes the training and works x games. Maybe give a bonus to teams that recruit more than one official, assuming some teams don't recruit any. Use whatever money is left to fund an incentive package for new officials (e.g., new officials who complete training and work at least 10 games get partial reimbursement for equipment expenses up to $100; they'd have to provide receipts to show they really used the money to buy gear).

Shorelax

04-03-2005, 07:28 AM

In Maryland High School-

Regular season
Private schools (MIAA) - 3-man
Public Schools - 2-man

Playoffs - 3-man

ploaref

04-04-2005, 07:32 AM

Two seasons ago the Philly area LOA (PDLOA) negotiated contracts with its leagues that required two of the top leagues (Inter-Ac and Central) to use 3-man crews in all varsity matches. Since then, every league we have must allow the assignment of 3-man crews if we have enough bodies. There are some heavy game days when our numbers are stretched to the limit...but on those days, the BIG matchups still have 3-man crews. Our online assigning system alerts the schools about how many officials are coming to a given game.

Fee negotiations were a little dicey for this situation. As it turned out, when we do a 2-man, 12-minute varsity game, the fee is "fee-and-a-quarter".

LaxRef

04-04-2005, 07:52 AM

Fee negotiations were a little dicey for this situation. As it turned out, when we do a 2-man, 12-minute varsity game, the fee is "fee-and-a-quarter".

So, you guys get paid and you only have to work a quarter? That's a pretty sweet deal. Do they play the last three quarters without officials, or do they get a different crew for each quarter? I'd bet the schools would get annoyed having to cut 8 checks per game. Are your officials so out of shape that they can only work one-quarter of a two-man game?

At first I thought you meant something else, but then I noticed you said "12-minute varsity game," which would be one-quarter of a regular game. Or maybe they just play 12 minutes for the whole game? That would make a quarter only 3 minutes; that hardly seems worth driving out there for.

They sure do things strangely out in PA.

eme

04-04-2005, 09:35 AM

"fee-and-a-quarter".

No wonder PLOAREF has so many coins for the pre-game coin toss.

Laxref_36

04-05-2005, 06:38 AM

"fee-and-a-quarter".

No wonder PLOAREF has so many coins for the pre-game coin toss.
Fellows, you've mis-interpreted that post. To be more explicit, the officials ref the whole game, but are paid a full fee plus 25 cents. Hope this clears this up.

That extra quarter is not used for the coin toss.

ploaref

04-05-2005, 11:32 AM

Sheesh! i forgot the cutting edge alacrity of the good folks i hang out in here with...

OK, since April Fools Day is over, here's a primer for anyone interested. See, in Eastern PA, the slang for "12-minute quarter boys varsity lacrosse game" becomes "12-minute game". "Full Fee plus another quarter-fee" = "fee-and-a quarter". That better?

Now when you come to Philly looking for work (love to have you) or to visit the host LOA during the upcoming NCAA Championships in May, you won't look like mid-western or northern New England HICKS while yer ordering your cheesesteaks!!

Wanna talk specifics about the fees? We're not the highest (but maybe close), but with a doubleheader or two, why do college!?!?

Vector_Joe

04-05-2005, 11:44 AM

OK, since April Fools Day is over, here's a primer for anyone interested. See, in Eastern PA, the slang for "12-minute quarter boys varsity lacrosse game" becomes "12-minute game". "Full Fee plus another quarter-fee" = "fee-and-a quarter". That better?

(based on a theoretical $50 rate)
So you are saying that if you get $50 each/3 man, then you get $62.50 each for a 2 man?

So for a school paying, they can get 2 refs for $125 or 3 for $150?

LaxRef

04-05-2005, 11:58 AM

Now when you come to Philly looking for work (love to have you) or to visit the host LOA during the upcoming NCAA Championships in May, you won't look like mid-western or northern New England HICKS while yer ordering your cheesesteaks!!

What is this "cheesesteak" of which you speak?

(Just kidding; I grew up near Philly.)

Wanna talk specifics about the fees? We're not the highest (but maybe close), but with a doubleheader or two, why do college!?!?

Because the pay for college double-headers is even sweeter?

I don't know why I do both, but I think working the higher-level games makes me a better official. Plus, at least in the upper midwest, the college games are a lot more enjoyable since the players know how to keep their mouths shut and just play. The high school kids, not so much.

LaxRef

04-05-2005, 12:04 PM

(based on a theoretical $50 rate)
So you are saying that if you get $50 each/3 man, then you get $62.50 each for a 2 man?

So for a school paying, they can get 2 refs for $125 or 3 for $150?

So, that's 20% more for the third official; this isn't completely out of line. For USLIA college club:

Div. A games:
3 officials $120 each = $360 total
2 officials, $145 each = $290 total
24% more for the third official

Div. B games:
3 officials, $110 each = $330 total
2 officials, $135 each* = $270 total
22% more for the thrid official

If the pay rate didn't change, it would be 50% more for the third official, but I don't think the difference between two-man and three-man is worth 50% more cash.

BTW, it's typical for a one-man game to pay 50% more than the two-man rate as compensation for how bad doing a one-man game sucks.

Personally, I'd rather spend the extra $60

shrekjr

04-05-2005, 02:12 PM

Because the pay for college double-headers is even sweeter?
Under the new agreement, I thought we weren't supposed to work college double-headers? With so many college officials, this is never a problem, right? :lol:

LaxRef

04-05-2005, 02:25 PM

Under the new agreement, I thought we weren't supposed to work college double-headers?

I'd never heard that. I think they probably never told us that because they were afraid we'd hurt ourselves laughing. I was scheduled for two triple-headers this season before I found out I was moving and had to cancel.

ploaref

04-05-2005, 03:10 PM

I don't know why I do both, but I think working the higher-level games makes me a better official. Plus, at least in the upper midwest, the college games are a lot more enjoyable since the players know how to keep their mouths shut and just play. The high school kids, not so much.

We don't have a whole lot of college double-headers out East. Most of the colleges out here are NCAA, which means one team in 90% of the cases. Some have freshman teams.

The NCAA D3 player has, for the most part, played in high school. They know the rules (OK, kinda). Point is, the high school game involves players, often physically gifted, that are playing lacrosse for only a few years. Not only do they not know the rules, their coaches don't either, so THOSE games end up being WAY more of a challenge, IMHO, to officiate. The LaSalle - Haverford School game glides by with nary a foul. It's like a "higher level" college game. The pace is fast, the coaches questions are pointed, but again, IMHO, they are "easier" to officiate. From that standpoint, LaxRef, doing your "lower level games" (games that have players and or coaches who are collectively less skilled at what they do) may actually make you a better official, since you often need to dig deeper into your knowledge of the rules. Around here, college club teams have players that often never played lacrosse before college, and their "backtalk quotient" - and level of potentially dangerous play - is often quite high...i wouldn't describe those games as "higher level"!

shrekjr

04-05-2005, 03:59 PM

I'd never heard that. I think they probably never told us that because they were afraid we'd hurt ourselves laughing. I was scheduled for two triple-headers this season before I found out I was moving and had to cancel.
"No official shall work any officiating assignment other than that assigned to the official by the MDOC prior to the MDOC assignment on the day of such assignment."

Actually, I guess that could mean if you're assigned the games by MDOC, it's okay to work multiple games in a day. So then maybe we're not supposed to work a youth game before a college game on the same day. How else are we supposed check out the hot young mothers to compare them to the hot co-eds we'll be checking out later in the day? :drool:

Vector_Joe

04-05-2005, 04:54 PM

How else are we supposed check out the hot young mothers to compare them to the hot co-eds we'll be checking out later in the day? :drool:

The game I reffed yesterday, the mother keeping the time was pretty hot.
:agree:

LaxRef

04-05-2005, 05:46 PM

The game I reffed yesterday, the mother keeping the time was pretty hot.
:agree:

Guys, guys, guys, as a moderator, I think I need to step in here. This forum is for serious discussion about lacrosse rules and officiating, not for prurient babbling about titillating happenings off the lacrosse field, so cut it out!

(What was she wearing? :drool: :chuckle:)

Vector_Joe

04-06-2005, 09:13 AM

sorry, will behave

LaxRef

04-06-2005, 09:31 AM

sorry, will behave

I was kidding! Did you see the "What was she wearing? :chuckle:" at the end of the post?

Vector_Joe

04-06-2005, 09:38 AM

Yeah, I saw that right after I hit 'post quick reply'.

She was just wearing a track suit, but she had a really nice face and you could tell she had a good body to go with it.

dislaxxic

04-06-2005, 01:34 PM

She was just wearing a track suit, but she had a really nice face and you could tell she had a good body to go with it.

Hey V-Joe, can you say "Cell Phone Picture"???

Can we start a thread about the best timer-table girl stories? Alberto Gonzales will jump in and let us know if it gets outta hand, right?

LaxRef

04-06-2005, 01:40 PM

Hey V-Joe, can you say "Cell Phone Picture"???

Can we start a thread about the best timer-table girl stories? Alberto Gonzales will jump in and let us know if it gets outta hand, right?

I can't contribute much to "best," but I have a story about the dumbest. College club game, timer and scorer are girlfriends of players, I assume. They couldn't even master the concept of "Start the clock when we blow the whistle, and stop it the next time we blow the whistle." We'd stop play and I'd hear her counting down the end of a period or a penalty. The visiting coach was freaking out--one of the few times I thought a coach freakout was reasonably justified, although his team was going to lose regardless. It was an ugly scene. Well, *they* weren't ugly, but you know what I mean.

shrekjr

04-06-2005, 05:49 PM

Can we start a thread about the best timer-table girl stories?
CSU has a good one, AND she knows what she's doing!

North Texas isn't bad either.

rilax

04-07-2005, 12:12 AM

Hey V-Joe, can you say "Cell Phone Picture"???

Can we start a thread about the best timer-table girl stories? Alberto Gonzales will jump in and let us know if it gets outta hand, right?
Went to a game to watch (night game after mine) first half the home team had a kid on detention duty (or some what not) mostly likely for smoking something on school grounds as he was obviously high (or permanently mentally deferent for being high to many times). He had no clue had his headphones on and walking up and down the side line (once the official could not find him to get a time check). First half was 1 hour and 15 minutes (off of a 12 minute stop clock).
At half time went down to the field and said what’s up at this rate you will not be able to get dinner (was hitting the limit on that) at the place after. (Normal not that hard to do but the rate they where going was an issue) So I ended up doing the game/penalty clock (off of the same timer :wow:) got the game done in 2 hours from opening face off (8 goal game worked the clock some and compensated for the longer first half)
Ever time there was a penalty would let the girls with the books know how much time was left etc. About half way through the forth quarter noticed that they where not writing down what I was saying. One of the girls did nothing but write down who scored the goals for her book and the other one shaded in the thing on top ever time there was a goal. Technically a player could have fouled out and no one would have be the wiser about it.

Vector_Joe

04-07-2005, 09:20 AM

eme

04-07-2005, 09:32 AM

Vector_Joe

04-07-2005, 09:50 AM

dislaxxic

04-07-2005, 09:54 AM

Official checks in with table area/timer before the game:

Official: "Are you the timer today?"
Timer: "Yes, I am. I am the girlfriend of the captain of the blue team."
Official: "That's great. Have you done this timing before?"
Timer: "Oh yes. I am also the captain's sister so I've done lots of games."

You refs in urban, sophisticated areas never have these situations, do you?

[[[[shudder]]]] oh MAN! just spewed my coffee across my desk!! Man, thats just WRONG! :imparied: Hope you threw the flag on that one. The signal is: put your fingertips together, turn parallel to the ground, and clap your palms together while holding fingertips together...

3rdPersonPlural

04-10-2005, 03:57 PM

Scanning this thread, my interest was piqued on the discussion of game fees. I'm curious to find out if there is a consistent fee scale nationwide, or if refs in mature lacrosse communities get more, because their value is more recognized, or less, because refs where lacrosse has no generational tradition are harder to come by.

I get 60 bucks per game which is 10 more than a novice ref and 10 less than a senior ref. College refs working our HS games get even more, but I never asked how much. Is this in line with what a Long Island ref gets or a TX ref?

(I can't imagine that this discussion would violate any confidentiality clauses, but if it would, please delete this post. However, I see it as a theoretical economics [supply and demand, value analysis] issue.)

LaxRef

04-10-2005, 04:23 PM

I get 60 bucks per game which is 10 more than a novice ref and 10 less than a senior ref. College refs working our HS games get even more, but I never asked how much. Is this in line with what a Long Island ref gets or a TX ref?

Indiana = $50/game for two man, whether middle school, JV, or high school.

Minnesota = $60/game this year ($65 next year) for varsity; $40 for JV games, which are two 25-minute halves running time

Neither place does the "more pay for more experience" thing. We found it just discouraged new officials, and it's hard enough to get new officials out there in the first place. When I started, it was $50 for the "experienced" guy and $35 for the new guys, and I remember resenting the heck out of that.

shrekjr

04-10-2005, 04:51 PM

Texas

Anything 5th-8th grade - $40 (1st-4th grade doesn't use officials, it's more of a scrimmage)

JV - $47 10 minute quarters, $57 12 minute quarters (up $2 each of the last 2 years)

Var - $57 whether 2-3 man crew (up $2 each of the last 2 years)

All fees are an extra 50% if 1 man

3rdPersonPlural

04-10-2005, 04:52 PM

Neither place does the "more pay for more experience" thing. We found it just discouraged new officials, and it's hard enough to get new officials out there in the first place.

I don't think that anyone does the job because of the money. I could make a heck of a lot more money spending the afternoon playing online poker.

You're right, though, a flat pay scale does make more sense. Frankly, the new refs work harder than the old hands who practically do it by rote.....

And an extra few bucks a game is hardly a noticeable incentive to come back for another season......

Maybe an inverted pay scale?

LaxRef

04-10-2005, 05:36 PM

I don't think that anyone does the job because of the money.

True. Well, maybe not true, I've worked with a few guys that I think were there for the money, but they were college students with limited earning power.

But few people are in it for the money. However, the money makes it possible to justify the time you spend officiating as opposed to doing other things. And it's a lot easier to get my wife to agree to me spending a Saturday officiating--where I'll make a few hundred bucks--than it is to, say, get her to agree to let me go for a 100-mile bike ride.

shrekjr

04-10-2005, 05:43 PM

But few people are in it for the money. However, the money makes it possible to justify the time you spend officiating as opposed to doing other things. And it's a lot easier to get my wife to agree to me spending a Saturday officiating--where I'll make a few hundred bucks--than it is to, say, get her to agree to let me go for a 100-mile bike ride.
I'll agree with that. Most of the money I make from officiating goes toward family vacations, or NASCAR season tickets, new lacrosse equipment for my son or drill team summer camps for my daughter, etc. It's just nice to have that "extra" money for fun stuff while the real money from working pays the bills.