Does goal count?

[pboyd]

NFHS Situation: A1 scores and Team B head coach requests an equipment check on A1. A1 does not have a mouthpiece but his crosse and all other equipment are legal. Does the goal count?
Review of prior threads for similar scenario's indicate that you only take the goal off the board for an Illegal Crosse or an USC related to "adjusting" crosse after being asked for stick. Is there any rule to substantiate this position or is this another shortcoming of the NFHS Rules?

[CoachRob]

No, the goal stands if an illegal mouthpiece is found AFTER the goal. If it was noticed BEFORE the goal, but the official simply did not blow his whistle in time, the goal does not count as play should have been stopped prior to the shot. Goals are disallowed when/for:

* the period has ended
* attacking player in the crease at the time of the goal
* attacking team has more than 10 players on the field at the time of the goal
* attacking team or both teams are offside at the time of the goal
* after the official has sounded the whistle, even inadvertently
* the goal scorer is found to have an illegal CROSSE (all other equipment violations are penalized accordingly, but the goal is still allowed).

EXCEPTION: If the goal is an OT goal, the coach cannot ask for a stick check after the goal, as the game is considered over. It is, in effect, too late to catch the attacker for an illegal crosse if he scores the winning goal in "sudden victory" OT games. Bad luck for the losing team.

The cases of illegal crosses and equipment are discussed in the case scenarios in the back of the rulebook. See cases 5.4-D, E, and G.

[LaxRef]

You specifically mentioned NFHS, and CoachRob answered in detail. However, I'd like to point out that NCAA does not say anything about the goal coming off the board if the crosse is adjusted, only if it is found to be illegal.

Here's a related one for the peanut gallery (NCAA or NFHS):

A1 gets off a last-second shot at the end of the period which goes in just before the horn sounds to end the third period. The officials rule that the goal is good, A1's seventh of the game. The officials immediately grab A1's crosse for their between-period check and determine it to be illegal (pocket, length, whatever; that part's not really relevant here).

What happens? (Think very carefully about what's going on here; there's more to it than first appears.)

[SF_13]

is this supposed to be a trick or something are we supposed to pick up that te other team didnt ask for a stick check or that it shouldnt be done in between periods?

[rilax]

You specifically mentioned NFHS, and CoachRob answered in detail. However, I'd like to point out that NCAA does not say anything about the goal coming off the board if the crosse is adjusted, only if it is found to be illegal.

Here's a related one for the peanut gallery (NCAA or NFHS):

A1 gets off a last-second shot at the end of the period which goes in just before the horn sounds to end the third period. The officials rule that the goal is good, A1's seventh of the game. The officials immediately grab A1's crosse for their between-period check and determine it to be illegal (pocket, length, whatever; that part's not really relevant here).

What happens? (Think very carefully about what's going on here; there's more to it than first appears.)

Technically the ball needs to cross the goal line before time expires for the period. Therefore no matter how small of an amount there is some time on the clock. Now here is where it gets somewhat interesting. From what I understand the NCAA has come out with memos basically saying blank the face off when the ball went in but then there is 0:00.0 on the clock how ever I could be 100% wrong on this (basically you can put on some time on the clock but there is not enough time to do anything, although if there is still an extra man situation this can be augured.)

Now verbiage gets somewhat interesting

Rule 5 A.R. 6. A1 scores. Before the next whistle, it is discovered that A1 was playing with an illegal crosse. RULING: Goal does not count. A1 serves a one- or three-minute nonreleasable penalty.

So sounds like no goal period still has ended team B has the ball to start Q4 up one man 3 minutes and that is locked in.
This is among various reasons why I think there should be a face off after a goal no mater what. (excluding overtime)

[CoachRob]

As A1 was found to have an illegal crosse, I have to rule it no goal. The specifics of WHY the crosse was checked are irrelevant. Be it at the request of a coach or an official, it was found to be illegal before the first whistle to restart play.

What is unclear is whether the crosse they grabbed is the one that was used for the goal. At times, when a period ends, players go to the sidelines and exchange crosses. So, unless the official is certain the crosse is the one that was used to score the goal, the goal cannot be taken off. However, LaxRef did specify that the "officials immediately grab A1's crosse for their between-period check" so I don't think that is the issue.

The other factor is that it is between periods. However, the whistle still has not blown to restart play so I still revert to NFHS case 5-4.E, which states a goal is disallowed if the scorer's crosse is found illegal before the whistle to restart play.

So unless I'm missing something (?????), this goal should be disallowed.

[eme]

I think RiLax has found the wording :"Before the next whistle."
If there was no ensuing FO after the goal...you'd take the goal away.
If there was a one-second FO..it would be a regular stick check penalty.

[CoachRob]

I think RiLax has found the wording: "Before the next whistle."
If there was no ensuing FO after the goal...you'd take the goal away.
If there was a one-second FO..it would be a regular stick check penalty.

The case scenario does not specify the next whistle has to be for a face off. All they are trying to convey is that the stick infraction must be found BEFORE the next whistle TO RESTART play, be it for a FO or a restart with possession. I don't see anywhere in the case that the restart whistle needs to be for a face off.

In the case scenario, since the crosse was found illegal, there is no FO. So, I don't see this making one iota of difference. A crosse found illegal during the dead ball period after a goal is disallowed, and that is the jist of the case and AR, except for the OT scenario.

[LaxRef]

I think RiLax has found the wording :"Before the next whistle."
If there was no ensuing FO after the goal...you'd take the goal away.
If there was a one-second FO..it would be a regular stick check penalty.

You guys are really getting at the issue. As you say, if there's a faceoff and then the stick is checked, no goal. But, as Rilax points out, theoretically if the goal is good--if it's in the goal before the horn--then there should be some non-zero amount of time on the clock, there should be a faceoff, and the goal should not come off the board.

However, we all know that our timing systems are not quite sophisticated enough to deal with this sort of thing. So, should we always do a sham faceoff a goal is scored before the horn but with no time on the clock? It seems like a waste of time to me. OTOH, I have had this situation come up in a game (although the guy hadn't scored 7 goals).

[LaxRef]

The case scenario does not specify the next whistle has to be for a face off. All they are trying to convey is that the stick infraction must be found BEFORE the next whistle TO RESTART play, be it for a FO or a restart with possession. I don't see anywhere in the case that the restart whistle needs to be for a face off.

The point is that in some sense there should have been a faceoff since there must have been time on the clock if the goal was good.

In the case scenario, since the crosse was found illegal, there is no FO. So, I don't see this making one iota of difference. A crosse found illegal during the dead ball period after a goal is disallowed, and that is the jist of the case and AR, except for the OT scenario.

I agree with your logic, to a point. But what do you say to that coach screaming, "If the goal was good, there was time on the clock, so there should have been a faceoff and the goal should still be on the board!"

The other thing is that if the goal was scored at the end of the second period (no time on the clock) and then just before the opening faceoff in the third period the opposing coach asks for a stick check and the stick is illegal,would you take the goal off the board? There's been no whistle since the last goal, so according to what you're saying you should disallow the goal. However, I have no way of knowing that it's the same stick, since a lot can happen in 10 minutes, so I don't think I'd allow it. "Coach, if you wanted the goal disallowed, you should have called for the equipment check right after the goal was scored so I could be sure were were getting the same stick."

[CoachRob]

I agree with your logic, to a point. But what do you say to that coach screaming, "If the goal was good, there was time on the clock, so there should have been a faceoff and the goal should still be on the board!"

I say nothing. The goal ended the period, and if he wants 0.1 second on the clock, we'll add it to the next period. Further, whether or not there should be a FO is IRRELEVANT. The crosse was still found ILLEGAL after the goal and BEFORE the whistle to restart play. And that is what 5-4.E says we need to do: disallow the goal.

While I understand you are saying the official would not have performed his stick check between periods if a FO were held, thereby allowing the goal, common sense tells us a horn ends the period, and I've never seen a FO after a horn has sounded.

If a coach wants to yell, let him. Then remind him that he certified his player's crosse was legal before the game, and why is it now illegal?

Plus, you wrote The officials rule that the goal is good, A1's seventh of the game. The officials immediately grab A1's crosse for their between-period check and determine it to be illegal. So the goal CANNOT count because the goal scoring crosse was found illegal before play restarted, FO or no FO.

The other thing is that if the goal was scored at the end of the second period (no time on the clock) and then just before the opening faceoff in the third period the opposing coach asks for a stick check and the stick is illegal,would you take the goal off the board? There's been no whistle since the last goal, so according to what you're saying you should disallow the goal. However, I have no way of knowing that it's the same stick, since a lot can happen in 10 minutes, so I don't think I'd allow it. "Coach, if you wanted the goal disallowed, you should have called for the equipment check right after the goal was scored so I could be sure were were getting the same stick."

I accounted for this scenario when I wrote What is unclear is whether the crosse they grabbed is the one that was used for the goal. At times, when a period ends, players go to the sidelines and exchange crosses. So, unless the official is certain the crosse is the one that was used to score the goal, the goal cannot be taken off.

I thnk sometimes LR you are working cases in such a way that you put traps that do not need to, or don't even, exist.

We have all seen goals scored at the end of a period, and all coaches understand they cannot score with 0.1 second left, no matter HOW good their FO guy is. Even if he were to win the face off, the ball would have to travel 40 yards in, let's be generous, 0.5 seconds. That means it has to travel 120 feet in 0.5 seconds, or 240 feet per second, which is slightly faster than 163 MPH. It is beyond comprehension that a player could get a FO and propel the ball at that speed and with that accuracy into the goal. So, a FO after a goal at the period horn is of no use. The bigger question is whether the ball entered the goal BEFORE the horn to end the period, not if a FO should be held.

So the goal is disallowed because the officials are certain they got the correct crosse, there has been no whistle to restart play, the player is sent to the box, and the opponent starts the next period at center "X". That's my ruling on whether to allow the goal and that's what I thought the question centered on.
:dummy:

[LaxRef]

We have all seen goals scored at the end of a period, and all coaches understand they cannot score with 0.1 second left, no matter HOW good their FO guy is. Even if he were to win the face off, the ball would have to travel 40 yards in, let's be generous, 0.5 seconds. That means it has to travel 120 feet in 0.5 seconds, or 240 feet per second, which is slightly faster than 163 MPH. It is beyond comprehension that a player could get a FO and propel the ball at that speed and with that accuracy into the goal. So, a FO after a goal at the period horn is of no use. The bigger question is whether the ball entered the goal BEFORE the horn to end the period, not if a FO should be held

My point--which I think you understand--is that there's no rule that says "You don't have a faceoff if there's no chance of a goal being scored before the end of the period." If that were the case, you wouldn't even do a faceoff with 1 second left. And so the decision about whether the goal comes off the board really defers to whether the officials decided to have a faceoff with very little time left (since if they'd had the faceoff the goal could not be taken away).

In basketball, you'll sometimes see a shot made with under 1 second to play and the clock will run out with the buzzer sounding because the timer didn't get it stopped in time. The officials then go look at the replay and have, say, 0.4 seconds put back on the clock if the game is close enough for it to matter, and the other team gets to try their catch-and-shoot or tip-in play.

And maybe the simplest answer here is, "The clock stops as soon as the timer can stop it after I blow the whistle to signal the goal. If the horn sounds or the clock reads 0:00.0 before I blow the whistle, the period is over. We don't put time back on the clock in lacrosse unless the timer makes a clear error, and that didn't happen here."

I suppose the other obvious answer is if you don't want to get into this situation, don't pull the stick of the guy who scored a goal right before the horn. :chuckle:

[eme]

I am not sure why this is so confusing. A1 scores at 0:00 and horn goes off just after ball enters the net. There will be NO FO. Official grabs A1's stick for the normal between periods stick check as A1 departs the field. Oops..illegal...goal comes off off and penalty assessed.

A1 scores with 0:01 left on the clock.There will be a faceoff. No one asks for a stick check on A1 before the Faceoff. FO ensues (that is the next whistle in the timeline here). Period ends. Officials grab A1's stick on normal stick check. It is illegal. But since you had a whistle re-starting play after the goal...the goal will stay...now you deal with A1's stick like any normal equipment check.

Am I missing something here?

[CoachRob]

What LaxRef and others are saying is this: The goal scores with 0:00 and 1/10th second left. They contend that it is impossible for the goal to score with EXACTLY no time left, that there must be a LITTLE time left, meaning there MUST BE time left for a face off, even if it is 1/10th of a second.

So, since they say a FO MUST follow the goal (because 1/10th of a second MUST remain on the clock), the official would not have checked the stick since the random check came between periods, which would not have occurred had there been a face off. The whistle would have sounded at the face off, making it too late to declare the goal illegal based on the illegal stick discovered between periods.

I, OTOH, maintain that it IS possible to score with NO time on the clock, the goal being scored simultaneous with the horn, and because there is NO time remaining on the clock, no face off occurs, and the illegal stick is therefore found during the random stick check wiping out the goal.

It is all hanging on their claim that SOME time must be left, a FO MUST be allowed to occur, PREVENTING the random stick check from occurring prior to the next whistle restarting play, and thus allowing the goal to stand. Can you say "splitting micro-hairs"?

AFAIC, a goal at the end-of-quarter horn means time has expired, the ball entered the goal just as the clock hit 0:00:00 and the period is officially over.

And "No", you're not missing anything here except an inability to parse the rules to the Nth degree, eme. While there are certainly times when it is "fun" to do so, I don't think that in this case it serves anybody any good. But it gets my typing skills up to speed!!

To his credit, LaxRef has once again walked into a mosh pit and managed to pull us all in with him. He has a knack for such excursions... :angry:

[eme]

Coach Rob, I think we are in heated agreement.

[LaxRef]

And "No", you're not missing anything here except an inability to parse the rules to the Nth degree, eme. While there are certainly times when it is "fun" to do so, I don't think that in this case it serves anybody any good. But it gets my typing skills up to speed!!

To his credit, LaxRef has once again walked into a mosh pit and managed to pull us all in with him. He has a knack for such excursions... :angry:

Did you miss the part where I said:

And maybe the simplest answer here is, "The clock stops as soon as the timer can stop it after I blow the whistle to signal the goal. If the horn sounds or the clock reads 0:00.0 before I blow the whistle, the period is over. We don't put time back on the clock in lacrosse unless the timer makes a clear error, and that didn't happen here."

[CoachRob]

No, I didn't. But if I can't poke fun at you, who will??? Hmmm...

[LaxRef]

No, I didn't. But if I can't poke fun at you, who will??? Hmmm...

Get in line. You know, the long one with my wife at the front. :whyme:

In any case, I did once have this situation (goal just before horn, stick is illegal, goal disallowed) happen once, and I always wondered whether we screwed it up by not having a faceoff (in which case the goal could not have come off the board due to the officials end-of-period check). But I guess we didn't screw it up!

[laxfan25]

I don't think you screwed up at all. I t is very easy to imagine a situation where the ball breaks the plane with two seconds left, the referee pauses a second to make sure of what he just saw, blows the whistle and the timer stops the clock showing nothing remaining. A valid goal, and if you pulled the scorer's stick for a check and it's bad, take off the goal. The coach is going to be thinking much more about the stick and the player using it than complaining that we're not using an atomic clock to time the game.

[LaxRef]

Yeah, I think I was looking at it too much like a mathematician. I'm pretty comfortable with the whole "clock running out even though the goal was scored before the clock read 0:00.0" thing now.

[laxref39]

Did you miss the part where I said:

And maybe the simplest answer here is, "The clock stops as soon as the timer can stop it after I blow the whistle to signal the goal. If the horn sounds or the clock reads 0:00.0 before I blow the whistle, the period is over. We don't put time back on the clock in lacrosse unless the timer makes a clear error, and that didn't happen here."
I doubt anyone has the ability to put 1/10 of a second on the clock but to you're credit you do have an inate ability to draw them all in.