OT goal with illegal stick

[rilax]

Now to make this interesting as we all know that coaches can’t challenge an OT goal:

To start the OT period after the coin flip A1 comes out on the field and lines up as an attack man and has a new stick. Team A wins the face as A2 picks up the ball. A2 then passes the ball to A1 who then doges his defender and shoots the ball and scores. Now the lead official notices that the ball should normally come out due to the nature of the dodge and when the ball goes into the goal he blows the whistle but does not single a goal. He asks for A1’s stick and finds that the pocket is strung in such a way that the ball does not normally come out. Therefore the official flags A1 and gives the ball to B at the free clear spot.

Two questions: (I am asking here this is not a quiz that I have an answer for) was the official allowed to do what he did and second should he have?

[eme]

Referee is within his rights to do so. But sometimes we as oficials can be TOO good. This is one of those times.

[CoachRob]

True, the official is permitted to check the stick at his own discretion DURING A DEAD BALL if he believes it to be illegal. But I don't see this happening here. Plus, his stick check was AFTER the goal scored, during a dead ball period, and I don't think that he can disallow the goal in such case.

I simply don't see that the ref asking for the stick check after a goal is any different than a coach asking for one, and we (and the rules back this up) agree that a coach requesting a stick check after an OT goal is not going to take it off the board, so why would an official's request? I don't see any fundamental difference, and therefore don't see disallowing this OT goal, IMO.

[LaxRef]

Referee is within his rights to do so. But sometimes we as oficials can be TOO good. This is one of those times.

Agreed. I think if you see this and there's a stoppage of play, you go check the stick if you want. But if they score before you get a chance to check the stick, head for your car.

[laxref39]

True, the official is permitted to check the stick at his own discretion DURING A DEAD BALL if he believes it to be illegal. But I don't see this happening here. Plus, his stick check was AFTER the goal scored, during a dead ball period, and I don't think that he can disallow the goal in such case.

I simply don't see that the ref asking for the stick check after a goal is any different than a coach asking for one, and we (and the rules back this up) agree that a coach requesting a stick check after an OT goal is not going to take it off the board, so why would an official's request? I don't see any fundamental difference, and therefore don't see disallowing this OT goal, IMO.
Normally, dead ball before ensuing face off if there is a requested stick check and the stick is found to be illegal no goal. In this instance, goal scored, game over, go home! Don't even think of putting yourself in that situation!

[JUSLAXIN]

Does it matter whether or not a goal was signaled?

[CoachRob]

Does what matter? For a goal to count, the refs have to recognize it as such. When the official believes the goal has crossed the goal line, he blows his whistle to stop play and runs to the crease. Upon seeing the ball in the goal (or has entered and bounced out), he makes the arm signal for a goal. If he realizes he has made an error and the ball is on the OUTSIDE of the goal netting, he waives it off and there is no goal. In this case, as there is no possession, and this was an inadvertent whistle, you award the ball by AP.

[LaxRef]

Does it matter whether or not a goal was signaled?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly sice you didn't quote what you were responding to. However, in general, if a goal is signalled it can still be wiped out by the things that wipe out goals. It's not like the official is committed to awarding a goal once he puts the arms up; he might find out that the scoring team had too many men, or the scoring stick was illegal, or the scoring team was offsides, etc, and then wave off the goal.

OTOH, if the official never signals a goal, then I guess there is no goal, so in that sense it matters.

[Vector_Joe]

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly sice you didn't quote what you were responding to. .....
OTOH, if the official never signals a goal, then I guess there is no goal, so in that sense it matters.

I think that what he is referring to is that in Rilax's original scenario, neither of the refs signalled a goal when the ball went into the net.

[LaxRef]

I think that what he is referring to is that in Rilax's original scenario, neither of the refs signalled a goal when the ball went into the net.

Sometimes if we think there's a potential problem, we'll huddle to sort things out before we signal either way. I think this is preferable to signalling goal and then waving it off if we know there's something to discuss.

[ref4ee]

Now the lead official notices that the ball should normally come out due to the nature of the dodge and when the ball goes into the goal he blows the whistle but does not single a goal. He asks for A1’s stick and finds that the pocket is strung in such a way that the ball does not normally come out. Therefore the official flags A1 and gives the ball to B at the free clear spot.

Two questions: (I am asking here this is not a quiz that I have an answer for) was the official allowed to do what he did and second should he have?

My opinion....If he truly believes the stick is strung funny, the ref's only option is to call illegal procedure, witholding (sort of like what can happen with a plunger move on a face-off), award the ball to B outside the box and restart. I don't think there is any discretion to measure the stick at this point. It was either a goal (and game over as it is in OT and stick checks after the fact are not allowed) or a technical foul with possession change. With that being said, he better be darn sure the stick is screwy and the ball was stuck where it shouldn't have been.

[LaxRef]

My opinion....If he truly believes the stick is strung funny, the ref's only option is to call illegal procedure, witholding (sort of like what can happen with a plunger move on a face-off), award the ball to B outside the box and restart. I don't think there is any discretion to measure the stick at this point. It was either a goal (and game over as it is in OT and stick checks after the fact are not allowed) or a technical foul with possession change. With that being said, he better be darn sure the stick is screwy and the ball was stuck where it shouldn't have been.

I'm not sure whether you're saying the official can't measure after the goal, or that he can't measure at all. He certainly *can* measure if he thinks the stick is illegal, according to:

Each half, officials shall conduct at least one inspection of a player’s crosse per team. These inspections shall take place in dead-ball situations. Players in violation will be penalized the same as if the crosse inspection were requested by the opposing head coach.

I agree that it would be a bad move to measure the stick after the goal--if the coach can do it, why should the official be able to?--but I like your idea of calling withholding if you think the stick is violating the laws of physics.

[ref4ee]

I'm not sure whether you're saying the official can't measure after the goal, or that he can't measure at all. He certainly *can* measure if he thinks the stick is illegal, according to:



I agree that it would be a bad move to measure the stick after the goal--if the coach can do it, why should the official be able to?--but I like your idea of calling withholding if you think the stick is violating the laws of physics.

Since this is overtime, he cannot measure if it is after a goal....if it is a goal, it's a goal - game over. This case is one where there is no goal signaled (no goal by definition).

Let me try and apply some logic. What caused the dead ball? In this case the ref's whistle stopped play and he has to call something (what is the definative foul?). I don't see any situation where an official can create a dead ball so he can check a stick. So what is his call after the whistle?

What if the stick is shown to be good? Do you count the goal?

[LaxRef]

Since this is overtime, he cannot measure if it is after a goal....if it is a goal, it's a goal - game over. This case is one where there is no goal signaled (no goal by definition).

Let me try and apply some logic. What caused the dead ball? In this case the ref's whistle stopped play and he has to call something (what is the definative foul?). I don't see any situation where an official can create a dead ball so he can check a stick. So what is his call after the whistle?

What if the stick is shown to be good? Do you count the goal?

Just so we're clear, I don't think we're disagreeing here. I wouldn't check the stick after the OT goal; I'd head for my car. What I am saying is that if there had been a dead ball after the official had become convinced the stick was illegal--but before the goal is scored--the official does have the right to check the stick.

There are, of course, situations in which the OT goal will be signalled and then waved off. For example, the lead could signal the goal just before the trail realizes that the attacking team had too many men or was offsides; in this case, the goal would be wiped out. However, I think the stick check is a fundamentally different situation, and I wouldn't stick my neck out here (if for no other reason that it makes you look like you're trying to change the outcome of the game rather than trying to enforce the rules).