Goal scored with illegal stick and no time left

[LaxRef]

Here's another question to ponder, combing thoughts from two recent threads:

As we've stated repeatedly, if a goal is scored by A1 in OT, coach B may not request an inspection of A1's equipment in an attempt to get the goal disallowed. (Well, he can request it, but he's going to be turned down.)

But what if the score is 10-10 when A1 fires a shot that enters the goal just before the horn sounds. The goal is judged to be good. As discussed elsewhere, in principle there should be some time left on the clock (maybe a few tenths of a second) since the goal allowed and it could not have been allowed if the clock read 0:00.00 before the ball entered the goal.

Now, I've come to a point where I accept the idea that the clock reads 0:00 and we aren't going to do a faceoff because of that. But can coach B request an equipment check of A1? (Remember, the A.R. talks about an overtime goal, not a goal at the end of regulation.)

[eme]

the only time the coach CANNOT request a stick/equipment check is AFTER a goal in OT. ...well, not exactly, the coach cannot request B2's be checked right after he has requested B1's stick be checked.

[3rdPersonPlural]

The clock stops at the ref's whistle signalling a goal, not when the timekeeper figures a goal has been scored. With a tick or so left on the game clock take a moment to make darn sure that the ball is in the cage and not, say, on the netting but outside the goal before whistling the goal good.

'That's a goal, that's the game, the whistle and the horn were simultaneous, and I'm outa here.'

[LaxRef]

The clock stops at the ref's whistle signalling a goal, not when the timekeeper figures a goal has been scored.'

I'm going to pick nits and say that it should stop when the official blows the whistle. The goal may actually be signalled several seconds later, since the lead is supposed to come all the way in to the crease before signalling, and circumstances may have dictated that he be outside the box when the goal was scored.

With a tick or so left on the game clock take a moment to make darn sure that the ball is in the cage and not, say, on the netting but outside the goal before whistling the goal good.

'That's a goal, that's the game, the whistle and the horn were simultaneous, and I'm outa here.'

I'm still leaning toward allowing the stick check, since the rules only refer to an OT goal creating a situation in whcih the stick cannot be checked.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I'm still leaning toward allowing the stick check, since the rules only refer to an OT goal creating a situation in whcih the stick cannot be checked.

Upon reflection, if the goal either decides the game or ties it forcing overtime, I'd expect, and accommodate, a stick check request.

[LaxRef]

Upon reflection, if the goal either decides the game or ties it forcing overtime, I'd expect, and accommodate, a stick check request.

The thing I love about this board is that it allows us to figure out what we'd do so we'll be ready if it ever happens. And, unlike some of the stuff we--or should I say "I"?--talk about, this one has a good chance of coming up for someone sometime.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Exactly, LR! I'd rather practice 'reflection' here and now than on the field at the end of a close game and under the gaze of a swarm of screaming fans and coaches.

Have I mentioned that I'm glad I found ya?

[LaxRef]

Have I mentioned that I'm glad I found ya?

Shouldn't that be "Have they mentioned that they're glad they found ya?"

Seriously, though, what's with your choice of screen name? Do you have parasites? Are you possessed?

[3rdPersonPlural]

Seriously, though, what's with your choice of screen name? Do you have parasites? Are you possessed?

I started using that handle a long time ago as sort of a reference to the universal 'they'. As in: 'They put up a building where the playground used to be' or 'They fixed the sewers finally'. Sort of an anonymous yet influential entity.

It made sense at the time.......

Now I just automatically use it as a screen name because it's never taken and I never forget it.

Got a game at Thacher to go officiate. 3PP out.

[1/2man1/2amazin]

So if the stick is illegal you can disallow the goal? I never knew that, that's pretty interesting.

[surveyor12]

So if the stick is illegal you can disallow the goal? I never knew that, that's pretty interesting.

Thats true. But if he receives a pass from an illegal crosse and then scores, the goal stands. It comes off ONLY if the SCORER"S crosse is illegal whether his teammates's crosse is legal or not (althouth the teammate can get a NR penalty, it still wouldn't take the goal away). A bit weird, but the rule as I understand it from the cases.

[LaxRef]

It always cracks me up when A1 will get checked after the third quarter, not immediately after a goal, and Coach B will try to get all 8 of A1's goals taken off the board.

[laxref39]

The clock stops at the ref's whistle signalling a goal, not when the timekeeper figures a goal has been scored. With a tick or so left on the game clock take a moment to make darn sure that the ball is in the cage and not, say, on the netting but outside the goal before whistling the goal good.

'That's a goal, that's the game, the whistle and the horn were simultaneous, and I'm outa here.'
Well said and enough said! That's the game boys!!

[Ghslongpole14]

the only time the coach CANNOT request a stick/equipment check is AFTER a goal in OT.

Tell me you're mistaken... WTF? You have to be incorrect on that one.

[AZReDWiNG]

Tell me you're mistaken... WTF? You have to be incorrect on that one.

no seriously, that's the rule.

[rilax]

Tell me you're mistaken... WTF? You have to be incorrect on that one.

Once the officials say a team scores a goal in OT that’s it all done. Notice I said officials not official (trail could call something after the lead says goal ie offside) although it should be done before the goal is called if possible.

[Snake~eyes]

the only time the coach CANNOT request a stick/equipment check is AFTER a goal in OT. ...
how about after A1's goal in the 4th quarter with no time on the clock?

[Hookem]

they can check it and if its illegal there would be no goal.

Did you watch the Johns Hopkins Virginia game? The coach had a stick check, and if it was illegal the goal would have not counted.

[LaxRef]

Tell me you're mistaken... WTF? You have to be incorrect on that one.

Nope:

A.R. 124. Team A scores the game-winning goal in sudden victory. The head coach of Team B requests an equipment inspection after the sudden-victory goal has been scored to determine the legality of the crosse. RULING: The game has ended. No inspection is permitted.

We know our stuff here!

[laxref39]

I started using that handle a long time ago as sort of a reference to the universal 'they'. As in: 'They put up a building where the playground used to be' or 'They fixed the sewers finally'. Sort of an anonymous yet influential entity.

It made sense at the time.......

Now I just automatically use it as a screen name because it's never taken and I never forget it.

Got a game at Thacher to go officiate. 3PP out.
"They made a lousy call and cost us the game, They're the reason we lost by 10"

[ragnut]

I'm not sure if the original question ever got answered. Seems like the goal was not scored in overtime -- therefore the stick-check is legal, IMHO.

[old geezer]

the only time the coach CANNOT request a stick/equipment check is AFTER a goal in OT. ...well, not exactly, the coach cannot request B2's be checked right after he has requested B1's stick be checked.

This is not correct. A coach can request as many 'stick checks' as he wants, assuming he is willing to suffer the consequences if the sticks are found to be legal. If he checks A1's stick and it is found to be legal, he has used his 'free check'. He could then ask to check A2's stick, and if it were found to be legal, then he would be charged a time-out but would not be able to use the TO. If no TO's are available, then the coach is charged with a TF.

I think that you meant to say that you can only check one stick per request.

[laxref39]

I'm not sure if the original question ever got answered. Seems like the goal was not scored in overtime -- therefore the stick-check is legal, IMHO.
If that goal goes in at the end of regulation or overtime, the horn sounds and the clock reads zero, nobody is going to try and put 2/10 of a second on the clock for a face off or a stick check! Game over everyone goes home. The ref who would do somthing like that would be out of his mind! Laxref poses these questions to get communication going and suck guys in. He wouldn't try and put that on the clock, try to get another f/o or do a stick check, he's heading for the car!!!! :chuckle:

[LaxRef]

This is not correct. A coach can request as many 'stick checks' as he wants, assuming he is willing to suffer the consequences if the sticks are found to be legal. If he checks A1's stick and it is found to be legal, he has used his 'free check'. He could then ask to check A2's stick, and if it were found to be legal, then he would be charged a time-out but would not be able to use the TO. If no TO's are available, then the coach is charged with a TF.

I think that you meant to say that you can only check one stick per request.

What eme states is not a rule in the book, but it should be! There should be a limit of one equipment check per team per dead ball. Otherwise, you can get team A going on a fishing expedition looking for an illegal stick to try to bail out his team in a close game with about 3:00 left. He uses his free check, then gets charged his two timeouts, then gets charged a technical foul (and loses possession), then gets charged a 30-second technical foul, then, voila, he finds an illegal stick and gets 2:30 of man-up and a chance to win the game. Of course, he's held up the game for 15 minutes now.

And did he call consecutive timeouts (which is illegal)? It's unclear.

This really needs to get added to the rules. It sounds like it's an unwritten rule at the NCAA level.

[LaxRef]

If that goal goes in at the end of regulation or overtime, the horn sounds and the clock reads zero, nobody is going to try and put 2/10 of a second on the clock for a face off or a stick check! Game over everyone goes home. The ref who would do somthing like that would be out of his mind! Laxref poses these questions to get communication going and suck guys in. He wouldn't try and put that on the clock, try to get another f/o or do a stick check, he's heading for the car!!!! :chuckle:

On the contrary. I'll do what the rules say. The rules say you can't call for an equipment check in OT. This is not yet overtime (remember, if the coach gets charged a TO between periods, it always gets charged to the preceding period, so it isn't OT until the OT starts).

Of course, I'll be trying to get off the field to sign the book before they can request it, and if they request it after the book is signed it's too late, but there's nothing that says they can't do it on a last-second goal.

I would not have time put back on the clock to do the check or try to do a faceoff, though, I'd just do the check if requested.

I'll make a note to suggest a change to the A.R. so it reads something like:

A.R. 124. Team A scores the game-winning goal in sudden victory or just before the final horn in regulation. The head coach of Team B requests an equipment inspection after the sudden-victory goal has been scored to determine the legality of the crosse. RULING: The game has ended. No inspection is permitted.

(Bold text is the proposed addition.)

[eme]

I would leave out your proposed addition above. What does "just before the final horn "
mean?
I would leave the rule as written as it seems very clear. IN OT you can't request a stick check after a goal has been scored. You can do it during regulation, with 00:01 or 00:00 on the clock, in the 2-minute interval between the end of regulation and the start of OT, and during OT on a coach's request before a goal has been scored.

I am a little unclear what the hullabaloo is about.

[LaxRef]

I think some people are taking the phrase "The game has ended" and trying to extend it to the case of a goal just before the horn.

[laxfan25]

I would leave out your proposed addition above. What does "just before the final horn "
mean?
I would leave the rule as written as it seems very clear. IN OT you can't request a stick check after a goal has been scored. You can do it during regulation, with 00:01 or 00:00 on the clock, in the 2-minute interval between the end of regulation and the start of OT, and during OT on a coach's request before a goal has been scored.

eme, what is your thought if the goal that is scored at the end or regulation is a game-winner? As iI said in a post yesterday, I think it would not be uncommon for a shot to be taken with a few seconds left, the ref checks to make sure it's in the net and not outside, blows the whistle and the timer reacts to stop the clock - now showing 0:00. You're not going to have the 2 min, interval, but it also is not overtime. Would you allow the stick check request at this point?

[eme]

eme, what is your thought if the goal that is scored at the end or regulation is a game-winner? As iI said in a post yesterday, I think it would not be uncommon for a shot to be taken with a few seconds left, the ref checks to make sure it's in the net and not outside, blows the whistle and the timer reacts to stop the clock - now showing 0:00. You're not going to have the 2 min, interval, but it also is not overtime. Would you allow the stick check request at this point?
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Yes, the equipment/stick check would be permitted. In fact, as a ref, I would expectthe coach to ask for an equipment check at that point. He has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[laxfan25]

I would like to agree, in the overall sense of fairness and sportsmanship. If they were illegal, would you really feel right with the win? (I'm sure many coaches would...)

[LaxRef]

I would like to agree, in the overall sense of fairness and sportsmanship. If they were illegal, would you really feel right with the win? (I'm sure many coaches would...)

Of course, given that, why can't you check the stick after an OT goal? I guess getting everyone home in a reasonable time frame is more important at that point. :chuckle:

[old geezer]

What eme states is not a rule in the book, but it should be! There should be a limit of one equipment check per team per dead ball. Otherwise, you can get team A going on a fishing expedition looking for an illegal stick to try to bail out his team in a close game with about 3:00 left. He uses his free check, then gets charged his two timeouts, then gets charged a technical foul (and loses possession), then gets charged a 30-second technical foul, then, voila, he finds an illegal stick and gets 2:30 of man-up and a chance to win the game. Of course, he's held up the game for 15 minutes now.

And did he call consecutive timeouts (which is illegal)? It's unclear.

This really needs to get added to the rules. It sounds like it's an unwritten rule at the NCAA level.

In 24 years of NCAA officiating out of 31 total, I have never heard of this 'unwritten rule' in regard to stick checks, and I have officiated from the Carrier Dome all the way down to Florida, working major Division 1 games with some of the best known officials as Munze, all 3 Cullens, O'Hara, O'Leary( father and son), Mitch Tullai(sic?), Howard Garrett, Brody, Schwab, Sandell, Fallon, Sadtler, Boyle, Condon, the list goes on. None of these have ever mentioned anything like your last line. And if this were true, then the official is wrong as officials have to realize that we are not empowered to make rules, that is the rules committee's job. As officials, we are only empowered to enforce the rules, nothing more. The rules committee is the Congress, the legislature, the city council, et al whereas the officials are the police, the law enforcement arm of the game and it is incumbent upon us as officials to realize that that is all we are, nothing more. And when the rules are vague or poorly written( an all too often occurence), we should not try to read more into it, but should just try to make the best of a bad situation until the coaches realize what an incomplete job they have done with the writing of a new rule.

I have been with many officials who have thought the rules were wrong, and often times I shared their opinion(s), but, with few exceptions( when someone else was the R), we always went back to the rules and enforced them as written, whether we liked them or not. For any official to make his own rules is wrong as that official then thinks that he is bigger than the game and no official has that stature. If your above mentioned situation were to ever occur, regardless of whether it takes 15 seconds or 15 minutes, I would hope that you would just mutter under your breath what you thought of the coach who was making the repeated stick check requests and go about your job to enforce the rules as the coaches have written them. And then after the game, contact the appropriate rules committee to have the rule changed for the next season.

[laxref39]

I think some people are taking the phrase "The game has ended" and trying to extend it to the case of a goal just before the horn.
If the horn has sounded that means there is no time on the clock. I admit I may be wrong on this count although I don't think so but for all intent and purpose that game is over as the horn has sounded after the goal. That is opening up a huge can of worms to try and do a stick check as the winning team runs on the field and you're trying to dodge kids to grab that stick that scored the winner!

[LaxRef]

If the horn has sounded that means there is no time on the clock. I admit I may be wrong on this count although I don't think so but for all intent and purpose that game is over as the horn has sounded after the goal. That is opening up a huge can of worms to try and do a stick check as the winning team runs on the field and you're trying to dodge kids to grab that stick that scored the winner!

My point is that the A.R. specifically refers to the case of OT. It is wrong to extend that situation to regulation, since that's specifically not covered by the A.R. What the A.R. says is that if a goal is scored in OT, then the game is over and a coach cannot request a check. That, unfortunately, does not mean that a coach cannot request a check if a goal is scored just before the horn.

And, think about it: why should he get screwed out of his right to check the stick just because you were slow blowing the whistle or the timer was slow stopping the clock?

[LaxRef]

For any official to make his own rules is wrong as that official then thinks that he is bigger than the game and no official has that stature. If your above mentioned situation were to ever occur, regardless of whether it takes 15 seconds or 15 minutes, I would hope that you would just mutter under your breath what you thought of the coach who was making the repeated stick check requests and go about your job to enforce the rules as the coaches have written them. And hen tafter the game, contact the appropriate rules committee to have the rule changed for the next season.

I agree with what you're saying here, and I don't make up my own rules. I do, however, sometimes defer to colleagues who are more experienced and who may have access to information I don't have.

I do have this on my list of rules suggestions to send in to the NFHS and NCAA.

[laxref39]

My point is that the A.R. specifically refers to the case of OT. It is wrong to extend that situation to regulation, since that's specifically not covered by the A.R. What the A.R. says is that if a goal is scored in OT, then the game is over and a coach cannot request a check. That, unfortunately, does not mean that a coach cannot request a check if a goal is scored just before the horn.

And, think about it: why should he get screwed out of his right to check the stick just because you were slow blowing the whistle or the timer was slow stopping the clock?
There is no provision for it in regulation, that is understood, however, when the horn sounds to end the game and there is a score differential of at least one goal, that would mean the game is over. On the ruling in ar 4.31 it does specifically state The game is over. If it is determined that there is no time on the clock and therefore no face off to occur the game would have to be considered over.

[LaxRef]

There is no provision for it in regulation, that is understood, however, when the horn sounds to end the game and there is a score differential of at least one goal, that would mean the game is over. On the ruling in ar 4.31 it does specifically state The game is over. If it is determined that there is no time on the clock and therefore no face off to occur the game would have to be considered over.

Yes, but you're misapplying it. It says:

A.R. 124. Team A scores the game-winning goal in sudden victory. The head coach of Team B requests an equipment inspection after the sudden-victory goal has been scored to determine the legality of the crosse. RULING: The game has ended. No inspection is permitted.

The stuff in the "RULING" section only applies if the conditions in the situation apply; that is, the ruling applies when it is a game-winning goal in sudden victory. You're trying to take part of the ruling ("The game has ended.") and make that the condition for applying the other part of the ruling.

In fact, no where does it say that the game has ended, with no opportunity for a stick check, when the clock expires and one team is leading. And, as you know, if the rules don't say you can't have an equipment check, you can.

[jktlax]

Don't you get tired of Officials that can't run???
At the "end of the Season, We all should be in shape. There is nothing worse than a partner that cannot cover the field!

[laxref39]

Don't you get tired of Officials that can't run???
At the "end of the Season, We all should be in shape. There is nothing worse than a partner that cannot cover the field!
What per se does that have to do with the original post?