MULTIPLE ILLEGAL CROSSE VIOLATIONS

[pboyd]

NFHS Scenario: Equipment check at the end of the 1st quarter results in violations against both players checked for illegal crosse (both pinched < 6-1/2" inside measurement)and each player receives a 3-min NR penalty. (a) Are these simultaneous fouls? (b)How do you start the 2nd quarter when the 1st quarter ended with no one in the box and no flags and no possession? Pick one answer and substantiate your opinion with NFHS Rule citation Proposed Answers: (1) Faceoff, (2) Award by Alternate Possession, (3) Enforce dead ball foul in sequence that they occur, and award ball to first illegal crosse checked, or (4)???.

[JUSLAXIN]

1)Faceoff
Rule 7-7 Fouls after the end of the period.
When any foul occurs before the start of a period or after the the officials period ending whistle has sounded, the penalty shall be assessed; and play resumed as provided for in Rule 4-3 Facing Off

[LaxRef]

NFHS Scenario: Equipment check at the end of the 1st quarter results in violations against both players checked for illegal crosse (both pinched < 6-1/2" inside measurement)and each player receives a 3-min NR penalty. (a) Are these simultaneous fouls? (b)How do you start the 2nd quarter when the 1st quarter ended with no one in the box and no flags and no possession? Pick one answer and substantiate your opinion with NFHS Rule citation Proposed Answers: (1) Faceoff, (2) Award by Alternate Possession, (3) Enforce dead ball foul in sequence that they occur, and award ball to first illegal crosse checked, or (4)???.

Here's what I'd say:

These are clearly dead ball fouls. The order in which you check the sticks should have no bearing on anything; I'd view the two fouls as being simultaneous since you can't really determine the order in which they occurred (they were both illegal at the same time, you just discovered one after the other one). Thus, since no one was entitled to possession, you award the ball via A.P.

There are a lot of officials out there who would go with a faceoff, but that's because hardly anyone understands simultaneous fouls.

I can dig up rules references if you need me to, but I'll wait until we see if there's any disagreement.

(BTW, please don't use ALL CAPS, even in your subject line.)

[eme]

You would have a 9 on 9 FO as per 4-3. None of the exceptions to a FO listed in 4-3 are germane here.

[Vector_Joe]

2005 NCAA:
Simultaneous Fouls
SECTION 6. Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing
teams during a live ball or a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.
...
c. Award the ball:
1. When penalty time is awarded and one team incurs less total penalty
time than its opponent, that team shall be awarded the ball.
2. When penalty times are equal or all fouls cancel:
(a) If a team has possession or is entitled to possession at the time of
the flag or whistle, that team shall retain possession.
(b) If neither team has possession at the time of the fouls, the ball shall
be awarded according to the alternate-possession rule. (See 4-32.)
I would agree with LaxRef.

[Vector_Joe]

You would have a 9 on 9 FO as per 4-3. None of the exceptions to a FO listed in 4-3 are germane here.

NCAA again

(2) If a player or team commits a foul before or during
any faceoff, the ball shall be awarded to the offended team.


I would say that this exception would cover this situation (in addition to the simultaneous fouls part).

[LaxRef]

You would have a 9 on 9 FO as per 4-3. None of the exceptions to a FO listed in 4-3 are germane here.

What about:

(2) If a player or team commits a foul before or during
any faceoff, the ball shall be awarded to the offended team.

This seems to relevant to me. Though it doesn't address simultaneous fouls directly, both teams have been offended, so both teams should be awarded the ball. Since that doesn't make sense, the simultaneous foul rule kicks in. And if you don't read it this way, then 4-3 and 7-6 are in direct contradiction.

[eme]

It makes sense that you award the ball via AP when simultaneous fouls occur during a period and the ball is loose and the penalty times are equal...how else are you going to get the ball back into play short of a FO at the spot of the ball when the fouls occurred and college lacrosse (and hs) got away from those FOs years ago? The International game still has them!

It doesn't seem to make sense and give one team an advantage (thru the AP arrow) when you can be fair to both teams in simultaneous fouls after a period ends (all conditions the same above) with a 9 on 9 FO. 4-3-exception 2 talks about one team disdvantaging the other and then awarding the ball...that makes sense. It doesn't address both teams disadvantaging each other equally. So I guess the wording needs to be clearer and clearer than I have been here. I can see both sides.

[LaxRef]

It makes sense that you award the ball via AP when simultaneous fouls occur during a period and the ball is loose and the penalty times are equal...how else are you going to get the ball back into play short of a FO at the spot of the ball when the fouls occurred and college lacrosse (and hs) got away from those FOs years ago? The International game still has them!

It doesn't seem to make sense and give one team an advantage (thru the AP arrow) when you can be fair to both teams in simultaneous fouls after a period ends (all conditions the same above) with a 9 on 9 FO. 4-3-exception 2 talks about one team disdvantaging the other and then awarding the ball...that makes sense. It doesn't address both teams disadvantaging each other equally. So I guess the wording needs to be clearer and clearer than I have been here. I can see both sides.

I'll add this to "The List." It seems that adding a line saying that "Simultaneous dead-ball fouls before a faceoff will result in a faceoff" would clear this up in this case, and would also clear up the case where both teams have an illegal procedure (non-time-serving) before the faceoff. Currently, you can interpret 7-6 to say that the ball should be awarded by A.P., but almost no one does that.

[chsFIRElax15]

(1) happened to me. the refs said they couldn't tell me what was wrong with the stick until the game was over. thought that was kinda stupid.

[LaxRef]

(1) happened to me. the refs said they couldn't tell me what was wrong with the stick until the game was over. thought that was kinda stupid.

They might be getting confused. The officials are not required to demonstrate what is wrong with the stick, since that can just lead to an argument over where they're measuring, how they're holding the tape, and so on. However, there's no reason I can see for not telling them what's wrong with it, especially since for a 3:00 penalty they can't touch the stick until the end of the game anyway.

[Snake~eyes]

I'm going with the AP, what we have is a clear case of simulatenous fouls.

NFHS 7-6
"Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during a live ball or a dead ball when sequence cannot be determined."

We have dead ball fouls when sequence cannot be determined.

And as stated above I'll just 4-3-1 Exception 2 "if a player or team commits a foul before or during any face-off, the ball will be awarded to the offended team"

Well a team did commit a foul, two teams infact, we dont know who comitted last therefore we have to got othe AP.

PS Welcome to the boards and good situation Pete

[CoachRob]

LaxRef is correct IMO. Dead ball simult fouls, equal penalty time assessed. Both locked in for 3 minutes, and therefore the ball is awarded by AP. I don't see any reason for a FO in this scenario.

I go with LaxRef, 4-3 notwithstanding. One team did disadvantage the other, but to the same degree as it was disadvantaged in return. So, with equal penalty time in 7-6, AP is in order.

I also agree that SF's are once again being misunderstood, IMHO.

[Snake~eyes]

I also agree that SF's are once again being misunderstood, IMHO.
Well, its understandable with the way they are written.

[rilax]

Few things. First 7-7 does not say enforce the penalties then have a face-off per 4-3 as the second post said. Instead what it says is to enforce the penalties from the spot designated in 4-3 that is a face off unless there is an EMO situation at the end of a quarter when a team has possession. Next four things end a face off one of which is a time serving foul. Illegal crosses are personal fouls and all personal fouls are time serving. Rest of this basically has been said; since there was a time serving penalty the face-off is over and the ball needs to be awarded via the AP unless one stick was only a pocket and the other had illegal construction. There are no restrictions on the player’s positions on the field. Now to come full circle if 4-3 said: give the ball to A as they had possession as there was an EMO situation the SF would be enforced and A would have the ball (unless there was an asymmetry in the PT)

There was some discussion in the past about instead lets say both teams where delaying the game would the ball be awarded via A.P. my gut was no as there are other case book examples that is A.P. situations accrued before the face off ended reface but concessions was no the ball should be awarded via A.P.

[CoachRob]

We had a situation where our opponent was a man down, and at the end of the period, our team had possession in the goal area. The ref wanted to start the next period with us in possession at center X. When I saw it, I yelled onto the field it needed to be in the same relative position (in this case, outside the attack box), not at center X as per 4-3. He didn't say anything and simply started the period at center X. Bummer.

I know he was incorrect, but it was too late. It turned out our guy streaked down the field and scored an unassisted goal against their man down defense, but it could have hurt us.

LESSON: Between periods, assure the ref knows where you believe the ball shoud be started in EMO situations by discussing it. For example, "Sir, the ball starts outside the box, correct?" to clarify it before the period. If he disagrees, then call for a challenge. Those 20-30 yards can make a huge difference.

On the good side, our team is 5-1 and improving very nicely. We are playing a 3-3 zone and a 2-1-2 zone with a chaser against teams with a good passer behind the goal. I'm our defensive coach, so I'm proud of our kids. My son plays crease defender, so it's great to talk strategy with him and watch defensive videos so we are on the same page. I am able to communicate changes to him with hand signals. It's a real advantage living with your crease defender!! Now, if I could only find a wife...

[JUSLAXIN]

Read what I wrote carefully. Then look at page 44 of the NFHS Rule Book Section 7 I wrote it verbatim. It looks pretty clear to me.