Meaningless faceoff with seconds left

[3rdPersonPlural]

So a team scores with just a few seconds left on the game clock. The score is, say, a five goal differential. A faceoff probably won't even result in a possession, but it's a splendid opportunity for players to get a last lick in and not have to serve any time.

What leeway does an official have to just call it a game and send everybody home? Also, can a flagrant foul in this face off scenario be assessed anything with teeth?

[LaxRef]

So a team scores with just a few seconds left on the game clock. The score is, say, a five goal differential. A faceoff probably won't even result in a possession, but it's a splendid opportunity for players to get a last lick in and not have to serve any time.

I think you need to have the faceoff unless there's a compelling reason not to (just ejected players after a fight or something). However, there's nothing that says you can't have a very quick whistle after the faceoff starts because of a violation, especially if you think there's going to be trouble. :chuckle:

What leeway does an official have to just call it a game and send everybody home? Also, can a flagrant foul in this face off scenario be assessed anything with teeth?

Well, you can call flagrant misconduct and make it an ejection, but I'd caution against doing this unless it's really bad. I called this one time, with 1 second to go in a 4 goal game and team A leading and trying to run the clock out. B1 did a big windup and slashed A1 hard on the arm. It wasn't the worst slash ever, but it was a bad one, and there was no doubt in my mind he thought he was getting a free shot that effectively couldn't be penalized.

In my mind, deliberately slashing someone because you were sure you could get away with it was flagrant misconduct, so I ejected him. Frankly, the furor that this ejection caused wasn't worth the message that was sent.

[RockStar]

LaXRef:

Do refs have the authority to actually dish out something more severe, like say a 1 game suspension for nonsense like you described?

If the rules allowed for referee's discretion on not bothering with the faceoff or just leaving the clock running, I'd probably look to that.

(I've seen too many games where you notice that each coach has sent his goon to centre for the last draw when it's meaningless)

[Snake~eyes]

LaXRef:

Do refs have the authority to actually dish out something more severe, like say a 1 game suspension for nonsense like you described?
No, we can only make decisions for the current game. Although we fill out a game report which the state will look at and make a decision on how many game suspension it should be. As far as I know my state has a mandatory one game suspension.

[3rdPersonPlural]

LO AND BEHOLD!! My game today had the dominant team scoring with 1.7 seconds left. My partner and I agreed that nothing good could come from staging another face, so we got consent from the coaches and declared the game 'over'.

My game tomorrow may be canceled, so I plan to go see UCSB play Arizona.

[LaxRef]

[QUOTE=RockStarDo refs have the authority to actually dish out something more severe, like say a 1 game suspension for nonsense like you described?[/QUOTE]

Many high school leagues have a mandatory suspension for an ejection, and the NCAA does as well. That was the point of ejecting the kid, so he'd be suspended. But suspensions are a league matter, so the officials only have indirect influence (they report the ejection and let the league handle it).

Often the second suspension during a season is 3 games and the third suspension is for the rest of the season.

[farside268]

I had a situation like this at the end of a quarter this afternoon. I told both players that we were going to have the faceoff, but I wanted them to pull back as soon as they heard the whistle. They should always be doing that, but by saying something, I put them on the spot for any sort of cheap hits or other such shenanigans.

[3rdPersonPlural]

I had a situation like this at the end of a quarter this afternoon. I told both players that we were going to have the faceoff, but I wanted them to pull back as soon as they heard the whistle. They should always be doing that, but by saying something, I put them on the spot for any sort of cheap hits or other such shenanigans.

Good thinking, Farside. I figure that rather than have a 15 second (or less) free for all running contrary to every fiber of our mandate to keep kids safe from themselves, I'd call the 6 middies together at the x and explain that if they wanted to vent themselves, I'd be happy to call a game misconduct on anyone who so much as looked ready to wallop somebody. On the other hand, perhaps taking a cue from football with the game decided and a few seconds left, they could shake hands, essentially take a knee, and act like the gentlemen that their moms think they are.

Then hit my 20 second timer and tell 'em to go to their corners.......

[Snake~eyes]

Good thinking, Farside. I figure that rather than have a 15 second (or less) free for all running contrary to every fiber of our mandate to keep kids safe from themselves, I'd call the 6 middies together at the x and explain that if they wanted to vent themselves, I'd be happy to call a game misconduct on anyone who so much as looked ready to wallop somebody. On the other hand, perhaps taking a cue from football with the game decided and a few seconds left, they could shake hands, essentially take a knee, and act like the gentlemen that their moms think they are.

Then hit my 20 second timer and tell 'em to go to their corners.......
Guys, I tihnk you're just over doing it, just let the team play the last 15 seconds. If rough play happens just call a penalty. Just how I feel about it.

[RockStar]

Many high school leagues have a mandatory suspension for an ejection, and the NCAA does as well......

OK. Thanks for clearing that. Were it not for that, It seemed a straight ejection was just as pointless as a time penalty.

[Lacrosse Ref LA]

I will always do the faceoff with a quick consult with the other official to be aware of the end of the game and the teams walking off the field and a casual warning to the faceoff guys such as " guys , 8 seconds left let's not do anything dumb"

[RockStar]

I will always do the faceoff with a quick consult with the other official to be aware of the end of the game and the teams walking off the field and a casual warning to the faceoff guys such as " guys , 8 seconds left let's not do anything dumb"

Good plan, but unless the coaches each send their goons to the F/O , the mess is just as likely if not more likely to start back on the restraining lines! (don't laugh, I've seen it happen. Two stone-handed brawlers who may never have taken a draw are sent to centre. :WTF: )

To cover all the bases, the best thing might be to find the coaches and captains and tell them that anyone who starts something gets ejected, and anyone who finishes it may also get ejected.

[michaeldwilson]

How often does something like this happen? I've never been involved in a game where a player or a team feels it has a chance to get some free hits in the last seconds of a game. I can't imagine a *coach* sending in a player at the last second to get a hit on another player.

Mike

[Snake~eyes]

How often does something like this happen? I've never been involved in a game where a player or a team feels it has a chance to get some free hits in the last seconds of a game. I can't imagine a *coach* sending in a player at the last second to get a hit on another player.
Well **** Chaney, Temple basketball coach sent a player in to do somthing similar because he felt the referees were not calling the game correctly. It could happen...

[3rdPersonPlural]

How often does something like this happen? I've never been involved in a game where a player or a team feels it has a chance to get some free hits in the last seconds of a game. I can't imagine a *coach* sending in a player at the last second to get a hit on another player.

Mike

I don't see it much around here in the Condor league either, but I hear horror stories from my fellow officials about leagues down in the big city which are mostly football players learning a new game and I'm working several of those this month.

[NickBritt]

The game showed just be called... Its gives the player another stat... i play faceoff and i know if i was jipped out of a faceoff at the end i would be pretty pissed... espically if my teams losing, it lets me show them that I'M at least better than them...

[regulate34]

yea in box up in canada we have stupid fights all the time and i get called up to intermediate B sometimes for A and in intermediate B their is like 8 fights a game because 2 fights and your out

[laxfan25]

The other advantage of having the faceoff is that it removes the opportunity for the coach to call for a stick check on the guy that just scored. :naughty:
(Just tying in with a recent thread).

[LaxRef]

The other advantage of having the faceoff is that it removes the opportunity for the coach to call for a stick check on the guy that just scored. :naughty:
(Just tying in with a recent thread).

Well, he still has the opportunity, he just doesn't have it for as long. And if it's the end of the game and a 5-goal differential, as the OP was stating, no one will be calling for a check.

[laxfan25]

I understand, I was just joking!

[Denis_callahan]

I understand, I was just joking!
real funny joke..... oh anyway today i was playing in a game and there was like 1:20 left and my team was up by one goal and after our team gave up the ball the other team started a fast break and b/c our middies are slow i decided to go play some d (i play attack) after calling for a middie back. anyway the middie dropped the ball and when he went to pick it up i (who was still running from the other side of the field) hit him, i hit him very hard but VERY clean, and he fell, the ref called unneccisary (sp?) roughness.... as i was walking towards the box he told me there was no need to hit someone that hard with a minute left... i was so angry, we were only up one not like 5 goals where i can understand calling someone for that, but it was a very important part of the game and he said that there was no need to hit that hard......i think he was dead wrong, anyone have anything like this happaned to them?

[LaxRef]

real funny joke..... oh anyway today i was playing in a game and there was like 1:20 left and my team was up by one goal and after our team gave up the ball the other team started a fast break and b/c our middies are slow i decided to go play some d (i play attack) after calling for a middie back. anyway the middie dropped the ball and when he went to pick it up i (who was still running from the other side of the field) hit him, i hit him very hard but VERY clean, and he fell, the ref called unneccisary (sp?) roughness.... as i was walking towards the box he told me there was no need to hit someone that hard with a minute left... i was so angry, we were only up one not like 5 goals where i can understand calling someone for that, but it was a very important part of the game and he said that there was no need to hit that hard......i think he was dead wrong, anyone have anything like this happaned to them?

This question gets asked all the time. If the official thought the hit was excessively violent, it's unnecessary roughness, period, even if it was an otherwise legal hit.

You may well think he was wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't studied the rules, been tested on the rules, passed the test, sat through training sessions, and otherwise have been certified to make these kinds of calls when warranted.

Look, I understand that UR is never a popular call, but the officials are there to ensure that the game is safe, fair, and fun, in that order. And as a player on the field, the one flagged for the foul, you just aren't in a position to objectively make the call. If you could, teams would save a lot of money by forgoing officials and just calling all of their own fouls.

The official did make a mistake, though. When he said, "There's no reason to hit someone that hard with 1:00 left in the game," he really should have stopped at the word "hard." In a 1-goal game, the rest of it wasn't really relevant.

Anyway, if you do a search of the rules forum for "unnecessary roughness," you'll probably find 5-10 threads where this is hashed out in detail.

[RockStar]

......in intermediate B their is like 8 fights a game because 2 fights and your out

Gotta love low-level lacrosse!

Mostly just a bunch of hockey thugs that are loving the opportunity to throw legal crosschecks!

Once I get certified to a level where I'm allowed to ref Intermediate, I'm quitting reffing!

[Paul_Gait_RULZ]

HAHAHAH! I'd probably be that goon!

LOL...but rockstar you shoulda seen fox the other night at our jr.b game, he fully saw the fight coming with little seconds left and split up th eguys fast b4 it started off the draw...and we had to wait on the floor until mimico cleared...

Oh ya, im playing jr.b and intermediate now, lots of lax for my soul....

[NickBritt]

real funny joke..... oh anyway today i was playing in a game and there was like 1:20 left and my team was up by one goal and after our team gave up the ball the other team started a fast break and b/c our middies are slow i decided to go play some d (i play attack) after calling for a middie back. anyway the middie dropped the ball and when he went to pick it up i (who was still running from the other side of the field) hit him, i hit him very hard but VERY clean, and he fell, the ref called unneccisary (sp?) roughness.... as i was walking towards the box he told me there was no need to hit someone that hard with a minute left... i was so angry, we were only up one not like 5 goals where i can understand calling someone for that, but it was a very important part of the game and he said that there was no need to hit that hard......i think he was dead wrong, anyone have anything like this happaned to them?

A kid on my team is a train he will level anyone any time.. and he kept getting called for UR.. the refs explained to him basicially if he lines someone up for 20 yards away and runs full speed and hits them thats a call.. if he starts from 5 yards away or w/e then its fine

[LaxRef]

A kid on my team is a train he will level anyone any time.. and he kept getting called for UR.. the refs explained to him basicially if he lines someone up for 20 yards away and runs full speed and hits them thats a call.. if he starts from 5 yards away or w/e then its fine

There is no such distance requirement for a UR call. However, if you tee a guy up from 20 yards away, that should pretty much always get called.

[shrekjr]

UR- Easy when its obvious, very difficult when its close whether it is right or not. Probably the most controversial play I've had in years was in the 1st quarter of a playoff game this year where the underdog (Team A) was beating the defending state champion (Team B) by two or three goals. Team A's goalie made a long clearing pass to midfield. It was a textbook buddy pass. Team B's defender just happened to be standing in the right place at the right time. I certainly couldn't classify it as "lining him up", they were both just there! As A (leading scorer) turned after catching the pass from the goalie, B stood his ground and laid him out. I had no call, and as luck would have it I was standing right in front of A's bench. The A player didn't get up. As B picked up the ball, I stopped play immediately and summoned the coaches/trainers on to the field. If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it the same way, but there is no way you'll ever convince A's coach or fans that the hit on their star player wasn't unnecessary as the player had to be taken off the field on a stretcher. And of course A then lost the game by a goal as their stud laid on the bench watching the rest of the game. Sometimes, we as officials just can't win.

[gfink]

I'll echo those sentiments. Had a play close to that last year in a tournement. A loose ball at the midline. Team 'a' picks the ball up and turns to cross the midline. Unfortunetly a long pole of large size was waiting for him and laid him out. Textbook check. The kid was hurt, and his mother crossed the field dropping 'f' bombs on me. Sometimes kids just get hurt. It is part of the game.

[laxfan25]

The thing is with both of those hits that shrekjr and gfink describe, the end result would have been the same - kids taken off the field. That is not something that we can control, and will happen on occasion. They both sound like hits that I would consider hard, but not unecessary. Whether the contacter deserved to sit for a minute or not would not change the outcome, and the coach and parent would still be upset.
I had a playoff game this year where the star player is in the attack box, the ball is being passed around, and all of a sudden he is on the ground writhing in pain. Neither I nor my partner had seen anything or any late hits after a pass, but some of the parents in the stands are yelling about "way to protect the players! You s*ck!"
Later, it turns out that he had just twisted his knee making a cut with no one touching him. An example of why it's best to just tune out comments sometimes, but it's a challenge when the field is hushed as a player is attended to! (Resist urge to turn and gesture.)

[LaxRef]

It is a sad fact of the game and of officiating that there is sometimes nothing we can do to "protect the players," since we can only penalize after the fact. We can talk to the players, we can penalize hits we see, but we're powerless to prevent injuries.

And, as several people have noted, just because there's an injury from a hit--or any injury at all--doesn't mean that a foul should have been callled.

[blindbill]

Just checking to see if the Forum is up and running!

[moondog]

A SMART lacrosse player will just back the hell away.

A little bit of intelligence goes a long way in lacrosse. The smartest players know how to avoid hits and cheap shots.