good or bad call

[Plummer]

team A calls a time out with possession. when the time out is over team A gets back on the field and team B is still in a huddle when team B begins running back on the field the ref says time ran out and blows the whistle to start the play. The goal is open nobody is guarded and team A gets a free goal. is this what the ref was supposed to do? this happened to us and we lost by one goal. to me it seemed really unfair

[eme]

Over officiating. When B is running back onto field, ref should turn off beeper, wait a few seconds for B to get organized, then point to on official to put ball into play.

[EdT]

Over officiating. When B is running back onto field, ref should turn off beeper, wait a few seconds for B to get organized, then point to on official to put ball into play.

While I would agree that this is "over officiating," where would you draw the line? I don't want time-outs to become like basketball, where two horns are needed because everybody ignores the first one. Twenty seconds is twenty seconds. Would you wait until it was the team that didn't have possession to call a delay so you can award it to the other team? The one thing I tell all the players is that when you step on the field, you are ready to play lacrosse.

[Snake~eyes]

I'm not starting play, I am just going to call a delay of game if anything. Starting play is not fair, if team B is not ready to play in the 20 seconds after the timeout is over then call Delay of Game.

Rule 6-5-6
Delaying the game shall be the consuming of more than 20 seconds:
b. After the expiration of a time-out, 20 seconds to begin when the official blows the whistle to summon the players to position...

While I would agree that this is "over officiating," where would you draw the line? I don't want time-outs to become like basketball, where two horns are needed because everybody ignores the first one.
Actually the first horn is a warning horn, the second horn means we're starting play.

[LaxRef]

I'm not starting play, I am just going to call a delay of game if anything. Starting play is not fair, if team B is not ready to play in the 20 seconds after the timeout is over then call Delay of Game.

Coach calls for double horn (NFHS) and tells you "We had our ten guys on the field and we were onside and ready to play. You can't call us for delay of game; there's nothing that says where we have to be on the field besides the offsides rule and that we can't be in the opponent's crease!"

Snake~eyes "loses" his first challenge and makes a mental note to not mention this to CoachRob.

Seriously, I had a play like this once. The team had been slow to get on the field all game and had already gotten some delay calls. They were called for the start of the fourth period (whistle and "Timer's on!") and stayed in the huddle. Eventually they ran on, and the goalie got into the crease. The other team had the ball in possession because they were man-up and had the ball at the end of the period, and they were ready to go. The other 8 guys just kind of stood around near midfield, no sense of urgency at all, and the timer had gone off, so I told my partner to put the ball in play and they scored right away.

In the same situation, I'd do it this way again. Eventually they have to learn that we're not waiting aroud all day for them to get their heads in the game.

[Snake~eyes]

Coach calls for double horn (NFHS) and tells you "We had our ten guys on the field and we were onside and ready to play. You can't call us for delay of game; there's nothing that says where we have to be on the field besides the offsides rule and that we can't be in the opponent's crease!"
I don't really agree. When I picture Team B running onto the field, I don' picture them being onside and they are not ready to play. That's just how I see it. But like I hinted at before, if my timer goes off as team B is coming onto the field I will be okay with that. Why else would they create delay of game? Maybe we shoudl just delete the delay of game signal and just use offsides and IP(too many men on the field) when we blow it to start play.

[rilax]

Coach calls for double horn (NFHS) and tells you "We had our ten guys on the field and we were onside and ready to play. You can't call us for delay of game; there's nothing that says where we have to be on the field besides the offsides rule and that we can't be in the opponent's crease!"


Snake~eyes just said the team was not ready for play. If the idiot coach does not realize that in a way he was helped by the delay penalty then fine he losses the challenge he gets another chance to delay the game and get another penalty. Also note that 6-5-6 never actually defines what delaying the game is and is one of those things that is common sense if the team is in a huddle or in a group running to there possessions they are delaying the game.

[CoachRob]

I think it delends upon level of player. Middle school, more leeway. High school and college, less so. If the players have broken the huddle and are hustling onto the field, turn off the timer and let them get set. If they are huddling for interminable amounts of time, and disregard your verbal warning, hit them with a delay of game. But I don't believe it is correct to start play with them out of position (in the huddle). That's why they have delay of game penalties, IMO.

But laxref is correct in that the rules don't specifically define what constitutes delay of game in 6-5.6. I think if the team is making an effort to enter the field and prepare to play, you have to go with the spirit of the game and allow this. If, however, they are habitually the last team on the field after huddles and timeouts, etc., then a delay of game penalty may get their attention. But starting it when they are running into position? Gimme a break.

[EdT]

If the players have broken the huddle and are hustling onto the field, turn off the timer and let them get set.

Aye, there's the rub. What if the huddle has broken and they are just walking onto the field? I'd like to wait for the goalie to get into his crease, but he's usually the slowest one. I'm not going to put them a man down in this situation, but the players have to learn to hustle on and off the field.

[CoachRob]

Walking is not *hustling*. Delay of game is in order.

[3rdPersonPlural]

Amen, Coach Rob!

[LaxRef]

Walking is not *hustling*. Delay of game is in order.
I just don't see how you can call delay of game when they are on the field and in compliance with all of the rules of the game. It's their business where they go on the field and how fast they do it.

Now, I'll agree that giving them a few seconds if the team is on the field but hustling into position is fine. But in the example I gave, they weren't; they were just milling around midfield after already having received several delay penalties and being warned several times that the clock was running. And this was a Varsity HS game. I don't think I'm supposed to tell them "Well, your 20 seconds are up, but you might want to consider going down there and helping your goalie defend the play this time; we'll hold the game up until you guys feel like playing." It seems like that should be the coach's job.

[RockStar]

^^ Here here.

A good coach would have them hustling into position as soon as the time out was over.

One thing that was stressed in the last clinic was that it is not your responsibility to make it easier on a poorly coached team. If the team in possession is in place and ready to go after the T/O expired, well, eff the defending team, and whistle it in!

Same thing if it's the team in possession that's dawdling. Do what you have to in terms of making a delay of game call, or maybe just re-awarding possession in the other direction.

[3rdPersonPlural]

One thing I'm not sure I'm clear on:

Team A calls a time out, and they're headed back onto the field in well less than 2 minutes. Do you blow your whistle and start your timer as soon as team A breaks their huddle or when a minute 40 has expired or what?

[eme]

Memorize this and you'll live a long life as a referee: Use your beeper to get OUT of trouble rather than to get INTO trouble.

[laxref39]

Team a breaks after there time out. Near side official blows whistle waits to or 3 seconds turns buzzer on! Announces for all to hear "BUZZER IS ON"! Team B takes there sweet time getting on the field, feild not ready for play buzzer goes off, flag down delay of game!!!!!! :thumbsup:

[laxref39]

official checks spelling before submitting post! Delay of game!

[laxref39]

Coach calls for double horn (NFHS) and tells you "We had our ten guys on the field and we were onside and ready to play. You can't call us for delay of game; there's nothing that says where we have to be on the field besides the offsides rule and that we can't be in the opponent's crease!"

Snake~eyes "loses" his first challenge and makes a mental note to not mention this to CoachRob.

Seriously, I had a play like this once. The team had been slow to get on the field all game and had already gotten some delay calls. They were called for the start of the fourth period (whistle and "Timer's on!") and stayed in the huddle. Eventually they ran on, and the goalie got into the crease. The other team had the ball in possession because they were man-up and had the ball at the end of the period, and they were ready to go. The other 8 guys just kind of stood around near midfield, no sense of urgency at all, and the timer had gone off, so I told my partner to put the ball in play and they scored right away.

In the same situation, I'd do it this way again. Eventually they have to learn that we're not waiting aroud all day for them to get their heads in the game.
No challenge, that was a "JUDGEMENT CALL"!

[3rdPersonPlural]

But does the team that didn't call the time out have to break just because the team that called it is finished? We've always done it that way, but I'm wondering if we're making up rules as we go......

[laxref39]

Yes, if it is team A's time out and they are ready to go after say 30 seconds the official should blow his whistle and in my mind wait a couple of seconds turn the buzzer on and let team B know the buzzer is on! It is team A's time out! Some teams call a time out and then rush the players back on to the field trying to catch the other team off gaurd and hope for a quick whistle! Fortunately the buzzer still comes into play giving them there 20 + seconds to be ready to play!

[CoachRob]

I just don't see how you can call delay of game when they are on the field and in compliance with all of the rules of the game. It's their business where they go on the field and how fast they do it.

Now, I'll agree that giving them a few seconds if the team is on the field but hustling into position is fine. But in the example I gave, they weren't; they were just milling around midfield after already having received several delay penalties and being warned several times that the clock was running. And this was a Varsity HS game. I don't think I'm supposed to tell them "Well, your 20 seconds are up, but you might want to consider going down there and helping your goalie defend the play this time; we'll hold the game up until you guys feel like playing." It seems like that should be the coach's job.

I think we are mostly agreeing. My point is that if they are on the field but clearly NOT in position, starting up the game is sure to give the opponent a scoring chance often on an open goal. Would I start the game when they were on the field but NOT in position? Perhaps, but I would think D.O.G. is a better solution.

But you do have a point; if they are on the field, and obeying the rules regarding offside, it is your right to blow the ball into play. It will teach them to hurry in the future.

Remember, I'm coming from a middle school perspective, and our kids often forget which GOAL they're defending during the 2 minute break. Being 13 & 14, with raging hormones, pretty girls on the sidelines, and big sticks in their hands tend to make their minds wander.

[laxref39]

I think we are mostly agreeing. My point is that if they are on the field but clearly NOT in position, starting up the game is sure to give the opponent a scoring chance often on an open goal. Would I start the game when they were on the field but NOT in position? Perhaps, but I would think D.O.G. is a better solution.

But you do have a point; if they are on the field, and obeying the rules regarding offside, it is your right to blow the ball into play. It will teach them to hurry in the future.

Remember, I'm coming from a middle school perspective, and our kids often forget which GOAL they're defending during the 2 minute break. Being 13 & 14, with raging hormones, pretty girls on the sidelines, and big sticks in their hands tend to make their minds wander.
Stop looking at the 13 & 14 year old girls and get those boys on the field of play.
At the middle school level I never even used a buzzer, we just hustled them on. Honestly even at the high school level it makes more sense to call delay of game. If they are down for 30 you know they will be hustling next time!

[CoachRob]

The only 13 YO girl I look at is my beautiful daughter (whose Bat Mitzvah is 5/21!), and that's to make sure none of my grungy lax rats get a hold of her! Heaven forbid.

But a DOG penalty really does send a message and it's why I prefer it to starting the game with them on the field but CLEARLY out of position. In upper levels, I can certainly see starting the game and letting them suffer the consequences.

[Snake~eyes]

Well if LaxRef's interp. is the correct one then I move to delete the DOG signal out of the rulebook.

[laxref39]

That's under the assumption the field is right! If you prefer to say illegal procedure fine. DOG is illegal procedure!

[Lacrosse Ref LA]

I agree, the team that calls the timeout decides when the timeout is over, up to 1:40 and then timer goes on. If they hustle back on the field after 30 seconds you announce to both teams "timer is on" and we should be ready to go in 20 seconds. If either team is not ready delay of game. This also includes the fact that the team calling the timeout (Captain or Coach) saying "we're ready" before you start the timer.

[michaeldwilson]

I just don't see how you can call delay of game when they are on the field and in compliance with all of the rules of the game. It's their business where they go on the field and how fast they do it.

Now, I'll agree that giving them a few seconds if the team is on the field but hustling into position is fine. But in the example I gave, they weren't; they were just milling around midfield after already having received several delay penalties and being warned several times that the clock was running. And this was a Varsity HS game. I don't think I'm supposed to tell them "Well, your 20 seconds are up, but you might want to consider going down there and helping your goalie defend the play this time; we'll hold the game up until you guys feel like playing." It seems like that should be the coach's job.

I agree with the LaxRef here. I mean, how can you call a Delay of Game when they haven't broken the rules?

I would guess this scenerio is extrememly rare, but if they aren't ready and don't appear to care too much about getting ready, I'm inclined to start play without them.

m.

[Plummer]

I agree with the LaxRef here. I mean, how can you call a Delay of Game when they haven't broken the rules?

I would guess this scenerio is extrememly rare, but if they aren't ready and don't appear to care too much about getting ready, I'm inclined to start play without them.

m.
what if there running back on the field and falling a little behind.

[Snake~eyes]

I agree with the LaxRef here. I mean, how can you call a Delay of Game when they haven't broken the rules?
Very easily, throw your flag, signal delay of game, have the inhome serve the penatly. :banghead:

[michaeldwilson]

Very easily, throw your flag, signal delay of game, have the inhome serve the penatly. :banghead:

You know what I mean. How can you justify calling a penalty within the written rules of lacrosse, not stuff we make up because it seems like a good idea?

m.

[LaxRef]

I think we are mostly agreeing. My point is that if they are on the field but clearly NOT in position, starting up the game is sure to give the opponent a scoring chance often on an open goal. Would I start the game when they were on the field but NOT in position? Perhaps, but I would think D.O.G. is a better solution.

But you do have a point; if they are on the field, and obeying the rules regarding offside, it is your right to blow the ball into play. It will teach them to hurry in the future.

Just so we're clear, in the specific case I'm referring to they'd been flagged several times for delay already that game, and in this particular case the goalie was in the crease. If there's time for him to get there, why can't everyone else be more than 10 yards from midfield?

BTW, I don't think there's a delay of game signal in lacrosse, but most of us use the stalling signal because, well, we watch too much football.