Good or Bad No Call?

[pboyd]

In last night's NFHS game - the goalie made a save in the goal-crease area. I started counting and when I hit 3 the goalie passed (flipped) the ball to a defenseman also inside the goal-crease. I continued my count through 4, 5, 6 and the D-man exited the crease and executed a clear across the defensive area clearing line prio to the 10 count. Did I make the right no call with the ball remaining in the crease for 6+ seconds or should I have blown it dead after 4 seconds with the ball still in the crease and award it to the riding team? See Rule 4-20-3.

[laxref39]

In last night's NFHS game - the goalie made a save in the goal-crease area. I started counting and when I hit 3 the goalie passed (flipped) the ball to a defenseman also inside the goal-crease. I continued my count through 4, 5, 6 and the D-man exited the crease and executed a clear across the defensive area clearing line prio to the 10 count. Did I make the right no call with the ball remaining in the crease for 6+ seconds or should I have blown it dead after 4 seconds with the ball still in the crease and award it to the riding team? See Rule 4-20-3.
Interesting question. The defenseman is not afforded the same rights as a goalie while in the crease and can therefore be checked while in the crease,however, he does need to leave the crease area.

[Snake~eyes]

There is no support to call 4 seconds here, atleast not that I see.

As you stated 4-20-3:
"A defending player, including the goalkeeper, with the ball in his possession, may not enter the goal-crease, nor may he remain within the goal crease area in possession of the ball longer than four seconds."

This is a good question and I'd say you did the right thing by no-calling it, it appears that there is no rule that supports making a call here.

[Thrillhouse]

I'm not a ref, but the sprit of the rule seems to say you got 4 seconds to put the ball in play.



Reminds me of the Armadillo...

[pboyd]

I thought that I had blown the call and then upon checking convinced myself that the Rule allows the ball to remain in the crease as long as no defending player retains possession for more than 4 secs up until the 10 sec max. Another one for the books.

[CoachRob]

This was debated in a thread about a month ago. IIRC, the consensus was it is FOUR SECONDS TOTAL, then it must leave the crease. It can reenter for another four, but not four PLUS four consecutively. So, I think you should have blown it dead at four seconds. The SPIRIT is four seconds in the crease, then it has to get out of there.

In NFHS this is less an issue with 10 seconds to clear, but with the NCAA and the new 20 second rule, this can be a concern. However, I'm calling it at four seconds. This is a "cutesy" attempt to circumvent the rules IMO.

[shrekjr]

I agree with Rob. I would enforce the spirit of the rule and stop play after 4 seconds. Don't know if that's right, but I know it would feel right at the time and I don't know of a coach out there that would challange it.

[Snake~eyes]

This is a "cutesy" attempt to circumvent the rules IMO.
But what if its not done on purpose? I just don't know about this, if a team isn't doing it on purpose(to waste time) then I don't see me calling 4 seconds.

[CoachRob]

But what if its not done on purpose? I just don't know about this, if a team isn't doing it on purpose(to waste time) then I don't see me calling 4 seconds.

How could it not be on purpose? The crease is not THAT big. It has to be a flip at such close range, so I cannot see it being anything other than a purposeful flip pass to the defender in the crease.

To me, that's not w/in the spirit of the rule.

[Snake~eyes]

How could it not be on purpose? The crease is not THAT big. It has to be a flip at such close range, so I cannot see it being anything other than a purposeful flip pass to the defender in the crease.

To me, that's not w/in the spirit of the rule.
Use your imagination. Defender picks it up in the crease, "hands it off" to the goalie. It'd be one thing if they were doing it purposely to delay the game or gain an advantage by doing it. Not really sure, you still in disagreement?

[CoachRob]

"It'd be one thing if they were doing it purposely to delay the game or gain an advantage by doing it."

By handing it off to the GK, he IS gaining an advantage (gaining the GK's privileges). Why else would he give it to him?

I still don't think it should be in the crease for more than four consecutive seconds, so I guess we still disagree. But once it's in the crease and I start my arm count, if it's not out by four, I'm blowing my whistle. But that's just me. (This is likely to occur once a season so I don't think it's a big issue.)

[ref4ee]

"It'd be one thing if they were doing it purposely to delay the game or gain an advantage by doing it."

By handing it off to the GK, he IS gaining an advantage (gaining the GK's privileges). Why else would he give it to him?

I still don't think it should be in the crease for more than four consecutive seconds, so I guess we still disagree. But once it's in the crease and I start my arm count, if it's not out by four, I'm blowing my whistle. But that's just me. (This is likely to occur once a season so I don't think it's a big issue.)

I don't see how flipping it to another player is much different than "deliberately creating a loose ball in the crease", to get another 4 seconds? I think it shouold be 4 consecutive seconds of possession, and then it has to be out.

[Snake~eyes]

I don't see how flipping it to another player is much different than "deliberately creating a loose ball in the crease", to get another 4 seconds? I think it shouold be 4 consecutive seconds of possession, and then it has to be out.
If that's how it should be then the rule neesd to be rewritten.

[LaxRef]

If that's how it should be then the rule neesd to be rewritten.

Agreed. The rule says:

c. A defending player, including the goalkeeper, with the ball in his possession, may not enter the goal-crease area, nor may he remain within the goal-crease area in possession of the ball longer than four seconds.

Thus, the 4-count is strictly defined in terms of player possession, not team possession. New count when the pass is completed. In either code, they're running down their clearing count by doing this, so it's not like it's a completely free ride.

[laxfan25]

Similar to the last post I read, I agree that if players hand off the ball in the crease that a new 4 seconds would begin for the new possessor, with the 10 or 20 count on.
Nothing wrong with that, and i don't see it violating the "spirit" of the rule. Especially if a smart attackman knew the rules and realized he could whack the heck out of the D man's stick. It's hard to hide a 6 foot stick in a 9 foot radius crease with a goal in the middle!

[jktlax]

Turnover!.........give the ball to the other team,

[LaxRef]

Turnover!.........give the ball to the other team,

Can you support this claim with the rules? Because I think we've done a pretty good job of showing that the rules say this is not a turnover.

(Also, it helps if you use the "quote" button instead of "reply" so we can see which post you're responding to; sometimes it's not clear.)