How would you tax the people?

[FPDefense]

Ok since alot of us have some economic background, how would you, if you had the power, tax the American people?

I personally would have the state tax the people, then the state pay the federal gov't a certain percentage.

[Longest]

Consumption tax.

Dan

[fallingupstairs]

people are alredy taxed

[zak]

Less heavily and progressively. Care to explain consumption tax? Im not 100% sure on what it is and dont want to start without knowing.

[FPDefense]

people are alredy taxed

im asking how would "you" tax people. Not should they be taxed.

[Longest]

Less heavily and progressively. Care to explain consumption tax? Im not 100% sure on what it is and dont want to start without knowing.

Similar to a sales tax, it is a tax on monies that are spent, not on monies that are earned.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/ConsumptionTax.html

Here's a good discussion on consumption tax vs. income tax which is really a discussion of the forms of taxation vs. its goals.

http://www.mises.org/story/1768

Dan

[FPDefense]

Now should the state control or the fed's control it longest?

[zak]

Hmm at least it would encourage saving (which we dont do). But what about those that cant afford to save, they would be unfairly burdened by their taxes. And then if you saved a long time, and dropped some big bills, you wouldnt be able to afford the taxes.

[zak]

Now should the state control or the fed's control it longest?
Fed should, who would get the tax revenue if i crossed state boarders and bought a car?

[Lockbox911]

The only problem with a sales(consumption) tax is that it puts a higher burden on the poor. Taxes should be more progressive. Now I don't know much about a consumption tax so i could be wrong.

[Mavido]

I dont know much about economics, but i am taking Ap macro and Ap micro next year. But i do feel that between income tax and Sales tax that the govenment is double dipping. I know income is federal and sales is state, but i think that only the feds should tax. Then the states should have other ways of creating income of their own.

[Dan]

Sales tax, or I guess consumption. Besides, I think our government is getting too big as it is. I think it controls too many things. So perhaps with less tax money, they would be forced to become smaller. That would be nice. I feel like I'm paying or legislators too much. Why should they make so much money? It's a waste of tax dollars. Granted, it's not very much, but nonetheless, we shouldn't be paying for their grandiose wages while most of us are making far, far less. Eh, whatever. It's not like what I think is ever going to change anything.

[Frndlefire]

I am bad with numbers and accordingly stay out of discussions like this, but I would really like more transarency in our government. I would like to know where my money is going. Sure, I understand when I wouldn't be able to be told exactly what it is being spent on because of security concerns, but at least I would like to know how much goes into the so-called black budgets. I mean, how often do you hear about small, little known government programs or agencies and are "WTF is that..."

[Frndlefire]

Dan, how would a consumption tax handle investments?

[Longest]

Dan, how would a consumption tax handle investments?

Somewhat depends on the implementation of the tax. The concept of a consumption tax is to tax people for what they take out of the market. Some forms call for investment income to be taxed as per usual if you sell that vehicle because you are removing useable money from the market. Most would do nothing and treat investments as nothing but savings regardless of how they're moved.

One major thrust of a consumption tax is that it prizes savings and so under that theory, investments are a form of savings with a greater return than your regular CDs and thus that's how you treat them. A lot of this is, at the moment, very abstract, hence the wide-ranging sentiments.

Dan

[Longest]

The only problem with a sales(consumption) tax is that it puts a higher burden on the poor. Taxes should be more progressive. Now I don't know much about a consumption tax so i could be wrong.

What higher burden does it place on the poor?

Dan

[SDPirate]

id tax them unjustly on the tea they import...http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/KRiSSYTENELLERA/dodgy.gif

[Longest]

Now should the state control or the fed's control it longest?

You're talking about 2 separate issues. I think of the "tax" issue in this case as what should the Fed do. What each state do should be left up to the states themselves. If VA wants a consumption tax, so be it. Or an income tax. Or no taxes at all. IMO, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Theoretically the Fed program would be the "smartest" and the states would wish to use the smartest available option. But in government work, the smartest option is hardly ever the one that's put forth.

Dan

[Longest]

Fed should, who would get the tax revenue if i crossed state boarders and bought a car?

The state?

Dan

[Longest]

Hmm at least it would encourage saving (which we dont do). But what about those that cant afford to save, they would be unfairly burdened by their taxes. And then if you saved a long time, and dropped some big bills, you wouldnt be able to afford the taxes.

Are you suggesting no one is unfairly burdened now?

Dan

[stegmakk]

What higher burden does it place on the poor?
Dan
The poor do not have much to begin with. To tax them on what they need to spend for is rough. Think of Welfare, and other aids to help the poor. Technically they will spend these grants/aids to survive. Should they be taxed on this? no.
If It does not include what is spent on investments, then everyone will invest or save what they make (no excess spending).
This will #1 hurt the economy and more people will lose jobs because no one is buying extra items. #2 You think the government budget is in a deficit now? Just wait till this is implemented...Our country will go the way of Enron.
Income is the best way...now, should they scale it better? Yes. How...I am not sure, but if someone is making $1 Million, then they could live being taxed 50% For every 2 Million extra add another 1% up to a max of 90%. So if a person makes $81 Million, they only take home $8.1 Million

[Deutschlaxer]

Why not go the way of a Flat tax across the board, say around 26%?? It has been proven to make people pay(no incessent loop holes for the rich) and in the end it would produce returns(income) for the government that are above the normal rate(65% more then today) .

Not that a Flat tax is the best option but with todays tax code and the amount that is spent on the administration(esitmates of 1/4 to almost 1/2 of the amount of the budget deficet--or 103.12 to 206.24 Billion dollars a year) it would make for a much more cost effective and benificial way.

On the consumption tax issue, the % that would be needed for a consumption tax would be astronomical. You would need to have a tax rate on or above 25% for all items including food(basic human need not currently taxable) just to keep the system afloat. It would also mean the loss of some institutions such as social security, welfare and would greatly increae the poverty rate i believe of those that do not make more then the poverty level($7.50 per hour)

Just my two cents but i look forward to a some input.

[TheKOB]

First, state does both income and sales. The state, county and city taxes are the biggest chunk, only they sneak up on you by being on a bunch of different things. Feds just do income, and some things such as gas (I think).

Second, state taxes will always vary by state. For example Texas, Florida, and some other places don’t withhold taxes out of a paycheck.

I don’t think a flat tax would work out so great. The only advantage of it would be that it’s easy to administer. I think it would actually hurt more people than it helped.

I would like to see no taxes on business, and a straight income tax across the board. Things like 401k and IRAs (the retirement account, not money sent to irish terrorists) would be deducted pretax, to encourage saving for retirement. The last thing you want to do is to encourage saving (saving vs. saving for retirement are two different things). An economy grows by spending money, not keeping it under a mattress. Along with the pre tax contributions should be a mandatory 6% taken out for retirement and put into some sort of low risk 401K, preferably with the company matching the amount. Instead of making people pay money out of their paycheck, I’d prefer making people save money for their own retirement. I know I’d appreciate it a lot more. I personally don’t see the 10% (more than both State and Federal tax) taken out of my paycheck for FICA as anything more than an additional tax.

As for doing away with taxes on businesses, it’s something that we can do to grow our economy. I’m especially not fond of the double-dipping corporation taxation (taxed once as income to corporations, and then again when paid out to shareholders) which puts US corporations at a disadvantage in the global market. The only investments that should be taxed are the gain. Basically, if I buy $100 in stock and sell it at a loss for $90, I shouldn’t have to pay tax on that $90 in my opinion.

On a slightly related note, I don’t think that the mindset should be that the rich have all the money so they should be taxed the most. The rich do a lot for society…running businesses, giving to charities, etc. How much does Bill Gates give each year, and how much does he donate to charities?

In terms of the administration of the taxes, you’d be surprised at just how inept the IRS is and how much money they could collect if they actually went after some people. Here in SC (which has one of if not the best and most innovative Departments of Revenue of any state) they put a program in place. Basically, the Director of the DOR went to the legislature and said, “give me $9 mill to hire more employees, and those employees will collect $90 mill in a year. If not, I’ll resign”. ¾ of the way in, we’ve collected all but $15 mill of that money. The rest of the DOR has already collected their required amount for the year, so everything else is extra. The problem with the IRS is that they spend more time on administrating taxes rather than collecting them, and going after those that don’t pay. Part of that problem might be budget cuts forced them to lay off auditors who’s job was enforced collections (ie knocking on doors)…that was the problem in SC. Some people just forget that it takes money to make money.

[Longest]

The poor do not have much to begin with. To tax them on what they need to spend for is rough. Think of Welfare, and other aids to help the poor. Technically they will spend these grants/aids to survive. Should they be taxed on this? no.
If It does not include what is spent on investments, then everyone will invest or save what they make (no excess spending).
This will #1 hurt the economy and more people will lose jobs because no one is buying extra items. #2 You think the government budget is in a deficit now? Just wait till this is implemented...Our country will go the way of Enron.
Income is the best way...now, should they scale it better? Yes. How...I am not sure, but if someone is making $1 Million, then they could live being taxed 50% For every 2 Million extra add another 1% up to a max of 90%. So if a person makes $81 Million, they only take home $8.1 Million

Welfare is different from what we're discussing. People will not invest everything they make. People are materialistic animals and most are going to choose a big screen TV or that new jet ski or new car over buying a stock that appreciates for 45 years. That's their choice but I just don't see a large uptick in investments vs other spending. However, investment into a business will also generate spending, it gives more monies to businesses to expand and grow, create more jobs, more opportunities.

I disagree with a progressive tax. A tax is already money being forcibly taken from someone and given elsewhere. I see little reason to tax more heavily the most productive members of society. Business owners are providing millions of dollars of services, products, and jobs every year. They create wealth and opportunity. Yet somehow that is supposed to be evil? I don't buy it.

Dan

[Longest]

On the consumption tax issue, the % that would be needed for a consumption tax would be astronomical. You would need to have a tax rate on or above 25% for all items including food(basic human need not currently taxable) just to keep the system afloat. It would also mean the loss of some institutions such as social security, welfare and would greatly increae the poverty rate i believe of those that do not make more then the poverty level($7.50 per hour)



Your first part is correct IF I think all the current tax expenditures should remain. I do not. In fact, the tax system would probably need much less of an overhaul IF the government was actually subject to real budgeting methods. Think about the government's view on a budget. You make a budget saying where money is going to go. But government agencies and workers have no real incentive to stay under this number because they can just go back to the till: the taxpayer. Do you and I have that option? No. If I need more money for my budget, can I just come to your house and steal it? Definitely not but that is precisely what the government does every year. Agencies bloat and grow and that is doing none of us a bit of good. Cut down on the spending and the tax burden is hardly the real problem here.

What are you basing your latter theory on? Any facts or proof?

Dan

[GeorgiaMiddie2]

I think that the state and fed'l govts should tax separately, like they do now, but i think there should either be a flat tax, where everyone is taxed the same percentage, or some sort of sales tax, like longest has said.

[zak]

The state?

Dan

Which one would get the money though. It sounds like inter-state trade would be hampered if they both have consumption tax. One wants it because it was their product being sold the other because its their consumer buying, and they cant both tax youon it.

Are you suggesting no one is unfairly burdened now?

Nope, Im suggesting what i said, that consumption tax would be an unfair burden on those who cant afford to save, keeping them poor. Im not saying anything about now. I was talkinga bout a consumption tax in general not comparing any two forms.

[Deutschlaxer]

What are you basing your latter theory on? Any facts or proof?

Dan

An Article that i just read in the economist stating the benefits that some European countries are enjoying due to the implimentation of a flat tax system.

The latter theory posted is also a result of some research done when i did a university project on, poverty and the effect of taxes on a social system, in my intermediate finance and tax class.

[TheKOB]

[QUOTE=zak]Are you suggesting no one is unfairly burdened now?
[QUOTE]

Who's unfairly burdened right now?

Anyone, just ask them...

[Deutschlaxer]

[QUOTE=zak]Are you suggesting no one is unfairly burdened now?
[QUOTE]

Who's unfairly burdened right now?

Anyone, just ask them...

Not to be nosey, but really in all honesty how much do you pay in tax a year? 26% maybe 35% at the most i would think, which would include the taxes paid on items that you have purchased throughout the year.

Compare that with the tax burden of European countries which in the worst case is 55% of your income plus another 16% on all items except for food.

Not that I agree with the amount of taxes paid still but realistically we pay far less then those of other nations and still enjoy a moderate to upscale life style.

[TheKOB]

[QUOTE=TheKOB][QUOTE=zak]Are you suggesting no one is unfairly burdened now?


Not to be nosey, but really in all honesty how much do you pay in tax a year? 26% maybe 35% at the most i would think, which would include the taxes paid on items that you have purchased throughout the year.

Compare that with the tax burden of European countries which in the worst case is 55% of your income plus another 16% on all items except for food.

Not that I agree with the amount of taxes paid still but realistically we pay far less then those of other nations and still enjoy a moderate to upscale life style.


Not sure if you were refering to me or not (my quotes mess up) but I wasn't referring to across income levels, not countries.

The way I see it, there is a basic level that everyone needs to survive (pay rent, food, etc). Everything above that is extra. The question is what that level is, so that everything over that should be taxed. That's the best way to do it, but very unrealistic. Believe it or not, I think the way we've got it now is the best way, although you'd be surprised at the number of people who pay money when they should be getting a refund, just because they don't pay enough attention to their forms.

[Longest]

Which one would get the money though. It sounds like inter-state trade would be hampered if they both have consumption tax. One wants it because it was their product being sold the other because its their consumer buying, and they cant both tax youon it.


I can leave my state now and buy a car. And the state in which I make the purchase gets the taxes as per their laws. I fail to see what your point is on this. MY state will levy taxes on me regarding personal property tax, etc.


Nope, Im suggesting what i said, that consumption tax would be an unfair burden on those who cant afford to save, keeping them poor. Im not saying anything about now. I was talkinga bout a consumption tax in general not comparing any two forms.

To believe many now, the poor are being kept poor by our tax system. So the question becomes: Can ANY tax system relieve the burden on the poor or is there something else keeping them poor?

Dan

[Longest]

[QUOTE=DeutschlaxerNot to be nosey, but really in all honesty how much do you pay in tax a year? 26% maybe 35% at the most i would think, which would include the taxes paid on items that you have purchased throughout the year.

Compare that with the tax burden of European countries which in the worst case is 55% of your income plus another 16% on all items except for food.

Not that I agree with the amount of taxes paid still but realistically we pay far less then those of other nations and still enjoy a moderate to upscale life style.[/QUOTE]

This totally ignores WHAT a tax is: it is the government stating that they know better than you what that money should be spent on, taking it from you, and sending it to others. I am not saying there are no public works for which taxes should exist. The Constitution provides for those specifically. Those things include the national defense, police, and the administration of the courts of law. I do not go as far as some of my libertarian colleagues in believing these things should be provided by the free market, although I certainly see their theory in putting it forth. But let's consider the many exorbitant, nonsensical, and possibly unconstitutional expenditures of the most recent budget year (list courtesy of the Heritage foundation):
Amount
Pork Project Recipient

$725,000
Please Touch Museum, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

$200,000
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, Cleveland, Ohio

$1,800,000
2003 Women’s World Cup Tournament

$6,000,000
Police Athletic League

$250,000
Call Me Mister program, Clemson University

$500,000
New England Amer-I-Can Program

$150,000
Rock School, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

$16,000
National Distance Running Hall of Fame, Utica, New York

$225,000
Hawaii statehood celebration

$325,000
Construction of a swimming pool in Salinas, California

$100,000
History competition during National History Day in Iowa

$175,000
Therapeutic Horse man ship center, Hoffman Homes for Youth, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania

$315,000
Formosan Subterranean Termite research

$100,000
Public service recognition week

$50,000
Father Maloney’s Boy’s Haven, Louisville, Kentucky

$75,000
Vintage Radio Programs and Jazz Museum, East Stroudsburg University

$100,000
Kids Rock Free educational program, Fender Museum of the Arts Foundation, Corona, California

$100,000
Renovation of the historic Coca-Cola building in Macon, Georgia

$100,000
Construction of an intergenerational daycare center in San Fernando Valley, California

$372,000
B&O Railroad Museum emergency restoration, Baltimore, Maryland

$75,000
Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz, Washington, DC

$225,000
Construction of Blue-Gray Civil War Theme Park, Kentucky

$75,000
North Pole Transit System JARC Program, Alaska

$250,000
Feasibility study of establishing Suffolk (Virginia) Workforce Development Center

$350,000
Construction for a folk cultural center in Pinellas County, Florida

$400,000
Speed Art Museum, Louisville, Kentucky

$90,000
Olive fruitfly research

$150,000
Traffic light, Briarcliff Manor Union Free School District, New York

$100,000
People for People, Inc., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

$100,000
Amphitheater construction, North Star Productions, Inc., Bracken County, Kentucky

$2,000,000
First Tee program

$150,000
Regional Youth Baseball Complex Lancaster, California

$100,000
John Singelton Mosby Museum Foundation in Warrenton, Virginia

$180,000
Seafood waste research, Fairbanks, Alaska

$400,000
Walla Walla Public Schools, Walla Walla, Washington

$900,000
Kincaid Park Trail Connection, Alaska

$20,000
Southern Star Development Corporation, Louisville, Kentucky

$85,000
Comprehensive Transportation Plan for Lewisburg, West Virginia

$100,000
Norman Hall project, University of Florida

$225,000
Museum of Aviation Foundation Inc, Warner Robins, Georgia

$250,000
Lou Frey Institute of Politics, University of Central Florida

$270,000
Sustainable olive production

$5,000,000
Kennedy Center Potomac River Pedestrian and Bike Path

$100,000
National Civil War Museum, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

$200,000
Cedar glades research

$250,000
Theater construction, Studio for the Arts, Pocahontas, Arkansas

$2,000,000
Intermodal Transload Facility, Quincy, Washington

$110,000
Construction of a dental clinic in Bassfield, Mississippi

$220,000
New Mexico Retail Association, Albuquerque, New Mexico

$400,000
Davenport Music History Museum, Davenport, Iowa

$3,000,000
US 12 Widening, Wallula Junction to Walla Walla, Washington

$25,000
Alex Haley House Museum, Henning, Tennessee

$225,000
Rialto Square Theater, Joliet, Illinois

$5,000,000
Project SOCRATES

$90,000
Rabbit Run Community Arts Association, Madison, Ohio

$150,000
Renovation off Farmers market, Dallas, Texas

$200,000
Merit School of Music’s after school program

$200,000
Advanced Traffic Analysis Center, North Dakota

$250,000
Nevada Test Site Oral History Project

$400,000
National Center for American Revolution, Wayne, Pennsylvania

$1,000,000
Hal Rogers Parkway, Kentucky

$1,000,000
Ship Creek Improvements, Alaska

$2,000,000
I-SAFE America

$50,000
National Canal Museum, Easton, Pennsylvania

$100,000
Mystic Seaport, the Museum of America and the Sea

$200,000
Renovation of First National Bank Building, Greenfield, Massachusetts

$250,000
Martha’s Village and Kitchen, Indio, California

$270,000
Potato storage

$1,000,000
Transylvania Community Hospital, Brevard, North Carolina

$6,000,000
Treasure Island Bridge

$80,000
Hot Springs Bike Trail, Arkansas

$90,000
Karnal bunt research, Manhattan, Kansas

$175,000
Wichita Art Museum, Wichita, Kansas

$210,000
O. Winston Link Museum, Roanoke, Virginia

$250,000
James S. Taylor Memorial Home, Louisville, Kentucky

$250,000
Museum of Broadcast Communications, Chicago, Illinois

$500,000
Traffic Signal Replacement Program, New Rochelle, New York

$2,000,000
Parents Anonymous

$100,000
"Servicing our Youth"

$275,000
Refurbishment of the Coach George E. Ford Center, Powder Springs, Georgia

$150,000
Piper’s Opera House Programs, Inc., Virginia City, Nevada

$270,000
U.S. Vegetable Lab

$1,250,000
US-2, Dover Bridge, Bonner County, Idaho

$25,000
Capitol Area Boy Scouts

$113,000
Healing Place, Louisville, Kentucky

$500,000
Jim Thorpe Bridge Renovation Project, Pennsylvania

$600,000
Web Wise Kids

$800,000
Mammoth Lakes Bus Purchase, California

$100,000
Renovate the Jamestown (Ohio) Opera House

$400,000
Ed Roberts Campus transit center, California

$750,000
The Doe Fund’s Ready, Willing & Able program

$160,000
Grapevine Bus Purchase, Texas

$500,000
Round Rock Higher Education Center, Southwest Texas State University

$1,400,000
Translational Genomics Research Institute, Phoenix, Arizona

$25,000
Transylvania County, North Carolina, Sheriff’s Citizens Observer Patrol and Education Team

$200,000
Chaldean Community Culture Center, West Bloomfield, Michigan

$300,000
Milwaukee Summer Stars

$450,000
Johnny Appleseed Heritage Center, Inc., Ashland County, Ohio

$750,000
Intelligent Transportation Systems, Wichita Transit Authority

$1,500,000
Operation Streetsweeper

$125,000
Planning for new route over Cape Fear River, North Carolina

$300,000
Omnitrans—Paratransit Vehicles, California

$500,000
Bike path, St. Petersburg, Florida

$1,000,000
WestStart Vehicular Flywheel Project, Washington

$15,000
Pines of Peace, Inc., Ontario, New York

$75,000
U.S. Dream Academy, Inc., Columbia, Maryland

$200,000
Oneont Bus Replacement, New York

$450,000
Trout Genome Mapping

$500,000
LOVE Social Services, Fairbanks, Alaska

$750,000
Broken Bow rail spur, Oklahoma

$2,000,000
Tools for Tolerance program, California

$150,000
National Restaurant Association Educational Foundation

$1,000,000
DelTrac Statewide Integration, Delaware

And this is just for fiscal year 2005. We're grossly overbudget and incurring a deficit as we speak but the pork keeps getting dolled out. Now tell me how a 30% tax rate is supposed to make me feel satisifed with my moderately lavish lifestyle considering the extreme waste being poured upon us? Is anyone better off with all of this waste? Is this spending constitutional? I'm sure you know how I would answer.

Regards
Dan

[Lockbox911]

What higher burden does it place on the poor?

Dan

Thinki about it if a poor person makes has to spend all the money they make then they are taxed for every penny they make. Where as a rich person can save a little and not pay as much taxes. This is why we have tax brackets so the poor pay little or no taxes. Its the best way.

[FPDefense]

Well i think we should provide grants toward eduction programs like the national cival war museum, but not the rock and roll hall of fame, or some baseball camp. we also need to consolidate programs having similar objectives. example (making it up) Bob's people for the homeless and joe's turkey's for homeless. both help fed homeless people but they should be combined to cut down on admin costs and for better effectentcy(sp?).

Im still also saying that the state should have more power than the fed. gov't. The state knows the needs of their people. Lets say that I live in rural Va and you live in long island. Now if they impose huge property taxes and low sales taxes im SOL since i have so much land but you will be happy since you own no land and buy alot. So to make it more fair for the indivdual the state should control taxes. The Federal Gov't should by constitional law have very little power. The purpose for the Fed in reality is to maintain a standing army and manage interstate trade.

[Deutschlaxer]

I'm sure you know how I would answer.

Regards
Dan

Well, if i actually read all of the listed Public wastes of expenditure then i would be a little more then upset, but i understand your point! I wasnt argueing about WHAT A TAX IS, which is a nominal percentage of a wage or income, paid to a ruling government or administration to help support federal or state(provincal) expenditures toward the public good or services.

All i was stating is that it is not fair to say that Americans are taxed anymore or anyless then anybody else in the world...wow lotta any's in there.

It is just to say that Americans are burdened with a administration that choices to carelessly over spend while stating that they are trying to be fiscally responsible and the average Person is the one that is paying, although this payment for what the average person recieves is really not that bad compared to other countries. That is all, no more no less.

[Longest]

Thinki about it if a poor person makes has to spend all the money they make then they are taxed for every penny they make. Where as a rich person can save a little and not pay as much taxes. This is why we have tax brackets so the poor pay little or no taxes. Its the best way.

How would you tax the people, same as we're doing now?

Dan

[Longest]

All i was stating is that it is not fair to say that Americans are taxed anymore or anyless then anybody else in the world...wow lotta any's in there.


Good work with the any's.


It is just to say that Americans are burdened with a administration that choices to carelessly over spend while stating that they are trying to be fiscally responsible and the average Person is the one that is paying, although this payment for what the average person recieves is really not that bad compared to other countries. That is all, no more no less.

Agreed for most of that. I don't care much about what other countries are doing in terms of their tax rate because they are under a different system, I care what the US Constitution says and how that affects people in this country. I disagreed with the Supreme Court using "international standards" to back a recent decision and I disagree using it for tax theory now.

Regards
Dan

[zak]

This totally ignores WHAT a tax is: it is the government stating that they know better than you what that money should be spent on, taking it from you, and sending it to others. I am not saying there are no public works for which taxes should exist. The Constitution provides for those specifically. Those things include the national defense, police, and the administration of the courts of law. I do not go as far as some of my libertarian colleagues in believing these things should be provided by the free market, although I certainly see their theory in putting it forth. But let's consider the many exorbitant, nonsensical, and possibly unconstitutional expenditures of the most recent budget year (list courtesy of the Heritage foundation):
Amount
Pork Project Recipient

[seven pages later]


And this is just for fiscal year 2005. We're grossly overbudget and incurring a deficit as we speak but the pork keeps getting dolled out. Now tell me how a 30% tax rate is supposed to make me feel satisifed with my moderately lavish lifestyle considering the extreme waste being poured upon us? Is anyone better off with all of this waste? Is this spending constitutional? I'm sure you know how I would answer.

Regards
Dan


Ahhhh the horrible unconstitutional pork-spending. Things such as schools, museums, and scientific studies that might one day cure diseases such as AIDS, parkinsons, and cancer. Heaven forbid my precious money goes to any of that. Now some of those were paybacks to congressmen to for campaign support etc and some of that money probably went to other "undisclosed" projects. But still, are you really that anti school district funding?

$400,000
Walla Walla Public Schools, Walla Walla, Washington

How is that bad? I mean, its a school system for gods sake.

[roughrider]

Income tax is the only fair tax.

[Longest]

Ahhhh the horrible unconstitutional pork-spending. Things such as schools, museums, and scientific studies that might one day cure diseases such as AIDS, parkinsons, and cancer. Heaven forbid my precious money goes to any of that. Now some of those were paybacks to congressmen to for campaign support etc and some of that money probably went to other "undisclosed" projects. But still, are you really that anti school district funding?


Tell me where in the Constitution it provides for federal spending on education. Tell me where spending is authorized for scientific study or museums or fish hatcheries.


How is that bad? I mean, its a school system for gods sake.

First, tell me where in the Constitution it is authorized. Second, tell me how citizens of, say, Des Moines, Iowa or Jackson, Mississippi are served by monies provided for the "common good" of one isolated school district in Washington.

Dan

[Longest]

Income tax is the only fair tax.

Do you support a progressive income tax or an income tax as enacted today? Are you against a flat tax for any specific reason?

Dan

[roughrider]

Dan you are going to hate me for this, but I hate our Constitution. Frankly I feel it is worthless, incredibly too vague and too limiting. So when something is in violation of the Consitution I dont really care much.

[FPDefense]

The problem with the constition today is that its interpreted by so many different. An excellant example of this is the 2nd amendment. You might say its just for forming a militia and i say its saying it says you have the right to own a firearm (not going into details with that one) But today theres way too many specialty groups that intuprete the constition for their liking, conservative and liberial.

[roughrider]

Do you support a progressive income tax or an income tax as enacted today? Are you against a flat tax for any specific reason?

Dan

I am against a flat tax because it is unfair to the lowerclass who makes 8.25$ at Wal-Mart. Well first of all we need to get rid of this supply side economic deal of REagans they has been ressurrected by Bush. It is crap. When it was first implemented the gap between the rich and power increased for the first time last century. The rich, because they can afford to, and because system to keep the lowerclass poor has largely gotten them rich (A 5.15 federal minimum wage is ridiculous!) Frankly, I am for a full redistrobution. But because that will never happen I suggest a progressive income tax.

[Longest]

Dan you are going to hate me for this, but I hate our Constitution. Frankly I feel it is worthless, incredibly too vague and too limiting. So when something is in violation of the Consitution I dont really care much.

I find that concept interesting, not hate-inducing. I'll agree that it is fairly vague. It's that way specifically so it would last multiple hundreds of years. It's limiting because it's supposed to be, on the government. What would you do differently?

Dan

[TheKOB]

I am against a flat tax because it is unfair to the lowerclass who makes 8.25$ at Wal-Mart. Well first of all we need to get rid of this supply side economic deal of REagans they has been ressurrected by Bush. It is crap.

Why doesn't it work?

When it was first implemented the gap between the rich and power increased for the first time last century. The rich, because they can afford to, and because system to keep the lowerclass poor has largely gotten them rich (A 5.15 federal minimum wage is ridiculous!) Frankly, I am for a full redistrobution. But because that will never happen I suggest a progressive income tax.


Was it the rich getting richer or the poor getting poorer? Got any statistics? My guess is that the rich people got richer, but the poor people also got richer.