jam bands vs. studio bands

[enjoi]

Face it, jam bands suck. All they can do is improv. They can't sit down and come out with a proper album. Terrible.

[Dan]

I concur. Dave Matthews, Phish, Grateful Dead, all of them, they just can't make an album. Now, bands like Led Zeppelin, those are another story. Sure, Page, Bonham and Jones can all improv up the hizzy (I have a concert with JPJ jamming for about 35 minutes on piano, Page for 13 on one guitar solo, 25 on another and then a 20+ version of Moby ****) but Zeppelin also made some stellar albums. But I wish Radiohead would jam at concerts. I can imagine Ed or Jonny with some stellar improv skills. Ed is probably underrated. Jonny is just freaking brilliant. Yeah.

[Frndlefire]

Face it, jam bands suck. All they can do is improv. They can't sit down and come out with a proper album. Terrible. Concerts are far more improv than the album work. There are plenty of "proper albums" by jam bands. Also, jamming can be a lot more fun. For instance, I used to be a strong Dave fan and went to some concerts... but after a while you can get tired of hearing the same songs played pretty much the same way. Jamming gets rid of this because it's always a new experience. Raine mentioned Led Zeppelin and I find it hard to draw a distinction. They are more rock, but they deffinitly jam in their live stuff. Is it because they came out with amazing albums that they don't suck because they jam?

[enjoi]

Concerts are far more improv than the album work. There are plenty of "proper albums" by jam bands. Also, jamming can be a lot more fun. For instance, I used to be a strong Dave fan and went to some concerts... but after a while you can get tired of hearing the same songs played pretty much the same way. Jamming gets rid of this because it's always a new experience. Raine mentioned Led Zeppelin and I find it hard to draw a distinction. They are more rock, but they deffinitly jam in their live stuff. Is it because they came out with amazing albums that they don't suck because they jam?

Well its partially personal preference, plus the fact that i think bands need to be able to release proper albums.

"They are better live" is a cop out, theres a hundred different variables as to what makes a good concert. The people there, how much alcohol the people there have consumed, etc.

If you can't be good or better than you are live in the studio, where you as the band controls every single sound going onto the cd then i don't know if you deserve my respect...

edit - this is all just my opinion and should not be interpreted as universal fact.

[Frndlefire]

I don't think it is a cop out at all. It is as much a personal preferance for the band as those who listen to them. Jam bands tend to see the concert as the primary medium through which they entertain rather than some pop singer who wants air time. Furthermore, listening to CD and going to a concert is an enormous difference. In some respects being in control of everything is a downfall because it is extremely limiting. A performance is about much more than the perfection of sound captured by a microphone and recording equiptment. I see it as the difference between the logical and planned of the album versus the visceral and emotive aspects of a concert. When a band jams it is a different expience than knowing exactly what is coming. They can catch you off guard and play something you know and like in a different, cool way. With a cd you may be able to capture the sound, and it will without a doubt sound better, but it doesn't embody the same emotive impact as the full concert experience. And yes... this is coming from a guy who is extremely anal about studio sound...

btw, what qualifies as a "proper" album?

[enjoi]

I don't think it is a cop out at all. It is as much a personal preferance for the band as those who listen to them. Jam bands tend to see the concert as the primary medium through which they entertain rather than some pop singer who wants air time. Furthermore, listening to CD and going to a concert is an enormous difference. In some respects being in control of everything is a downfall because it is extremely limiting. A performance is about much more than the perfection of sound captured by a microphone and recording equiptment. I see it as the difference between the logical and planned of the album versus the visceral and emotive aspects of a concert. When a band jams it is a different expience than knowing exactly what is coming. They can catch you off guard and play something you know and like in a different, cool way. With a cd you may be able to capture the sound, and it will without a doubt sound better, but it doesn't embody the same emotive impact as the full concert experience. And yes... this is coming from a guy who is extremely anal about studio sound...

btw, what qualifies as a "proper" album?

Well i do feel that being a stuido only band is an idiotic move to make.

A proper album is: an album 30 minutes + made in a recording studio with a set of similar songs set to a theme, or a central idea. A concept album though would be different as there is a specific theme.

[Dan]

Flaming Lips "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robot." Killer production.

Dave Matthews does have strong shows. My brother has tons of of concerts. But think Radiohead concerts: (Glastonbury 1997, 2000, 2003 in particular) super, dooper shows that combine amazing effects with some great music. It's a show, but so much better than most concerts.

[GCHSLax04]

Improving music requires SO much more talent and skill than studio recording music. Take it from a bandmember. or if you don't want to, try it yourself someday.

[Dan]

I disagree. I'm going to continue to make references to Radiohead, because I know them best. Like, I seriously know WAY too much about Radiohead. Continuing, their 4th and 5th albums took forever to make. They spent so much time making them the best they could be. Sure, some bands just go in and lay down tracks and are done with recording in a week and the rest is up to some other guy and the leadman to make sure it all sounds right, but for FANFREAKINGTASTIC albums, it takes more. The studio can be painful for some. I know I'd follow along the Radiohead side of things versus the pop-punk side. But Radiohead live...it just kind of comes out. Just watch their dancing. Or Jonny. Amazing man.

[BTlaxripper]

ok.... well let's apply this to rap (i believe enjoi likes rap more than rock, sorry if I'm wrong)

which takes more skill

a studio with pre recorded beats reading words from a sheet you are holding

OR

thinking of rhymes off the top of your head while your man beat box-es

. . .

[unta8]

ENJOI LAX IS A WOMAN! Can you really say that O.A.R. isn't good?? Or DMB isn't good? WHo was saying a few weeks ago that Jack Johnson was a great artist?

[anjang86]

Enjoi is WRONG!

I like this one point by Frndlefire: you get tired of hearing the same songs over and over again. Improvs are the heck!

I find it interesting listening rappers battle, freestyle, and along those same lines I like the jam bands as well.

A full album is great but its scripted making it less rooted.

[MassLax25]

I pretty much only listen to jam bands. Even if they cant make an album, their live stuff is awesome.

[joeyp2003]

did u just say dave matthews couldnt write a good studio album? ohh i cant even get mad people are allowed to have their own opinions but i dunno dmb the dead phish all those bands have good studio albums but live is where they shine they have a strong following and i love jamming...ive never heard a song played the same way at any dave show which is why i go to hear whats next

[Frndlefire]

Enjoi is WRONG!

I like this one point by Frndlefire: you get tired of hearing the same songs over and over again. Improvs are the heck! I said heck? :WTF:

[anjang86]

I said heck? :WTF:


yeah, loser....

actually I said heck, heck heck heck heck

[WaRriorInVein]

ok.... well let's apply this to rap
which takes more skill


Ha... hahahah...hahahhahahahha... no

[jedimasterPIMP]

I think being a good live band is more important then being a good studio band. Bands like DMB make good studio albums when you look at their old ones, and they are amazing live. I hate how nowadays some band can sound so good over the radio or on a CD and then sound terrible live.

[lzlax09]

I disagree with the whole studio is better than live. Also I disagree because phish and other jam bands put out some pretty solid studio albums as well. Any average joe can go into a studio and make an album, but it takes a special talent to put together a 40 minute jam with no paper or notes or anything for them to read. Also I agree that live is better because I have about 500 live phish songs on my ipod and not one of them is played the exact same. You can listen to 10 different live versions of a song and all of them will have their own unique jam to them. GO JAM BANDS!!!! :nahya:

[Dan]

Studio is more important, of course. I mean, what do people have more access to, your albums or your shows? Albums, of course. I mean, if somebody told me Zep had a great live show, but their albums blew, I'd be like, oh. Well, Bonham's dead and they were around 30 years ago. Or, for today's bands, if I heard that Interpol had a stellar live show (and I have heard that) but their albums sucked (which they don't) then I wouldn't be a fan. But Interpol has a stellar combo going on. Thus I am a fan.

An album, or a good one, is an experience. Who else is a fan of concept albums, or albums that are meant to be listened to ALL THE WAY THROUGH? For example, I never listened to Interpol's Turn on the Bright Lights straight through about the first 20 times. And then I went to other songs to experience them better. But it was an album as a whole. Same with some of these:
Radiohead: OK Computer, Kid A
Franz Ferdinand: Franz Ferdinand
...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead: Source Tags & Codes
Elbow: Cast of Thousands
Flaming Lips: Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots, Soft Bulletin, Zaireeka
Grandaddy: Sophtware Slump, Under the Western Freeway
Modest Mouse: Moon and Antarctica
Pearl Jam: Yield
Pink Floyd: Any and all of them
Sigur Ros: ( ), Agaetis Byrjun
Smashing Pumpkins: Siamese Dream

THOSE are albums. I have a lot of CD's that aren't albums. Those bands don't stick with me. I listened to my iPod literally 9 hours today, and the day isn't up yet. I had to charge it up after work and I'm listening to it again, but now to soundtracks from snowboard movies.

PS: Enjoi, I got some stellar new tracks from mp34u and indie-pendence. The Kasabian, Walkmen, Bloc Party and one Trail of Dead song are really cool. Plus some others, but I'm still learning to like them. Like Decemberists and Libertines. Should be good, eh?

[bestpheeling06]

Can you really say that O.A.R. isn't good?? Or DMB isn't good

yes. OAR sucks. absolutely terrible. second rate jamband that can't even play their ****ing instruments. they admit to not playing some songs live cause they're too hard. jambands own. imrpov takes a ton of talent and music theory knowledge, it isn't just stringing random notes together. tell me you can play like trey and i'll laugh at you. granted there are some terrible jambands, i'm not here to defend them all, but to say doing studio stuff where you can restart if you screw up is harder than jams is ridiculous. let's hear you piece together YEM. solo through DWD. play around mike's notes. not happening. i'm sorry, but jambands are talented as hell. i don't see incubus changing their songs, or jay-z. same stuff, over and over. and this is why the scene is better too...the change every night brings people to tour. people get to know each other. great scene. great music.

and raine, buy Castaways and Cutouts by the Decemberists. great album.

[Dan]

Yeah, I think I'll go for M83 or Arcade Fire or My Bloody Valentine first, but Decemberists are definitely promising. Anyway, I just listened to some Radiohead concerts. Jonny, their lead guitarist (as well as everything imaginable), once made fun of people that go to shows to hear the same thing. He changes stuff up in shows. But jam bands vs. studio bands for me is more like jam bands that can't create an album vs. studio bands that make good albums and pour their heart and soul into it and then do a little bit of improv on stage, but it isn't their big thing. I mean, my brother has the '97 DMB tour, but I don't even LIKE Dave Matthews, and my brother and I have pretty similar tastes.

[Lacrossedude24]

I haven't read any of your posts but I just want to say that I cannnot stand Dave Matthews Band. GARRR THEY ARE HORRIBLE. SOMEONE TELL DAVE TO LAY OFF THE HEROIN!!!!!

[BTlaxripper]

Ha... hahahah...hahahhahahahha... no

actually you construed my statements (that's construe, not misconstrue.... dubbya)

the phrase "which takes more skill" was a rhetorical question leading into my juxtaposition of freestyle or studio rap...

so that's "lets apply this to rap. Which takes more skill:. . ."
not "let's apply this to rap -- which takes more skill. freestyle..."

[Fartman]

yes. OAR sucks. absolutely terrible. second rate jamband that can't even play their ****ing instruments. they admit to not playing some songs live cause they're too hard.

you've obviously never been to an OAR show. they're amazingly solid and have so much energy. yea, there not a true jamband, but they do have some jamband tendencies, and when they do jam, they are amazing. and that crap about them admitting that they don't play certain songs live because they are too hard is crap. i've heard almost every one of their songs in person; if not i've heard recordings of a show. if they admitted to not being able play some songs, i would have heard because ive read every article and interview about the band ever. OAR is amazing in and out of the studio. back up what you say or don't say anything at all.

[GBaschski]

Personally, I like Jam Bands. Half of my cds are all live concerts. Dave Mathews Band and OAR rank among my favorite bands. We all have our preferences, so we can stop with the "YOU STUPID DIP****, YOUR MUSIC SUX, GO KILL YOURSELF" stuff.

I'm not sure how we didn't already see this coming. People are going to get into fights because someone doesn't agree with them. We should just close the thread.

[bestpheeling06]

and that crap about them admitting that they don't play certain songs live because they are too hard is crap.

actually you're wrong. they did say that in an interview years back about to zion goes i. also, they arent as talented jamwise as half the music out there. phish anyone? oar = introductory.

[liveforlax19]

i would just like to say that I think DMB is great both in concert, and in the studio... the busted stuff album was great, along with all the rest...

going to see them july 1st, cant wait...

[LymanLax28]

I like jam bands (obvioulsy) and I like studio bands too. But I think (as a musician) that it definently takes way more skill to be a good jam band than a good studio band. Studio bands have as much time as they want to change parts of a song, get other people's opinion on it, and refine it with music programs. Improvising in front of thousands of people (and doing it well), to me, obviously demands the musicians to be much more skillful at their instruments, to have a better knowledge of music, and at working well together as a band (like a lax team that works well together).

[BTlaxripper]

liveforlax, is busted stuff the only album you have of them? IT's the only one I don't have... they decided to release Everyday instead of Busted Stuff because I think their producer encouraged them to explore new territory and they felt like it didn't fit them so released Everyday instead, but then released the "new territory" stuff as Busted Stuff.

Is it any good?

AND WHEN IS "STAND UP" COMING OUT!?

[liveforlax19]

liveforlax, is busted stuff the only album you have of them? IT's the only one I don't have... they decided to release Everyday instead of Busted Stuff because I think their producer encouraged them to explore new territory and they felt like it didn't fit them so released Everyday instead, but then released the "new territory" stuff as Busted Stuff.

Is it any good?

AND WHEN IS "STAND UP" COMING OUT!?

no, im such a big DMB fan, ive got a TON of their stuff... ive got the busted stuff album, under the table and dreaming, before these crowded streets... live at chicago, the gorge, central park, live at folsom... everyday... too many to name

yeah its really good, i personally thought every day was "new territory" thats why most people didnt like it, its not classic DMB... but then when busted stuff came out i think people appreciated it alot more, its a really good album... a lot of good stuff... definately go out and buy it...

stand up comes out may 10th... i dont think it will be all that great, im still gonna buy it... go to www.weeklydavespeak.com for updates and what not

but to get back on topic... i agree with whoever said that it takes more talent to be a a jam band... i mean, listen to the sound of some of those bands on stage, it sounds better than in studio... in studio, the songs are tweaked to sound good.. it shows no talent, i think

[enjoi]

Ha... hahahah...hahahhahahahha... no
Ah ah ahhahahhahahahahahahah yes Rapping does take skill and no lets not go into it.

but to get back on topic... i agree with whoever said that it takes more talent to be a a jam band... i mean, listen to the sound of some of those bands on stage, it sounds better than in studio... in studio, the songs are tweaked to sound good.. it shows no talent, i think
I think it takes much more skill, time and patience because you are fiddlin with the entire sound of every single track and second.

Essentially you are shooting for perfection, that to me, is a much higher, loftier, and harder goal to do then improvise off an already made song.

[Dan]

KID A. KID A. KID A. KID A. KID A. KID A. KID A. KID A.

There's proof that making an amazing studio album is FAR, FAR harder than becoming an amazing jam band. Besides that, Radiohead does improvise. Kid A was like a child for them. So much effort. Nearly broke up the band. Amazing album, every second.

[jedimasterPIMP]

liveforlax, is busted stuff the only album you have of them? IT's the only one I don't have... they decided to release Everyday instead of Busted Stuff because I think their producer encouraged them to explore new territory and they felt like it didn't fit them so released Everyday instead, but then released the "new territory" stuff as Busted Stuff.

Is it any good?

AND WHEN IS "STAND UP" COMING OUT!?

Busted Stuff wasn't new territory for DMB at all. In fact all of those songs were on one of their first cds that never made it to production called the lillywhite sessions. A lot of the songs are the same, but the lyrics are a little changed becuase songs like grey street and raven were too dark and depressing.

[Fartman]

actually you're wrong. they did say that in an interview years back about to zion goes i. also, they arent as talented jamwise as half the music out there. phish anyone? oar = introductory.

show me the interview and i'll believe you. plus, i've heard to zion goes i plenty of times live... its not a complicated song whatsoever. also, OAR isn't really a jamband, they just have some great jamband tendencies.

[bestpheeling06]

alright fine. radiohead = god.

[unta8]

I know this topic is long dead, but I dont care. I think dispatch is a terrible jam band, although I do like their music. I can't stand the stupid gibberish their singer says just to try and sound cool. And I quote:
Ta mookah mamamama moooah say!!

Download: dispatch - elias like a prayer what i got live. its 3 rolled into 1, but if you listen to it you'll get what I mean.

[MassLax25]

I can't stand the stupid gibberish their singer says just to try and sound cool. And I quote:
Ta mookah mamamama moooah say!!

That stuff actually means something it's some middle eastern language.

PS: I saw their last concert at the Hatchshell and it was awesome.

[moondog]

Similar songs! Who wants to hear 12 similar songs? You're just talking out of your butt, by this point.

Many "jam" bands are dismal; agreed. But how can you possibly knock the blues, or jazz, for that matter? Blues and jazz are improvisational music--and they require far more talent and skill than you could fathom.

Are you saying that Eric Clapton, B.B. King, and Stevie Ray's blues suck? Are you saying that Miles Davis sucks? Does John Coltrane suck? Does this mean Herbie Han**** and Thelonius Monk suck?

My lord. A couple teenagers read one issue of Rolling Stone, and think they know everything about music. That's just gross.

Agreed--Raine>it would certainly be a treat to see Radiohead improvise--Thom Yorke is a once-in-a-lifetime kind of person, and he is surrounded by creative and talented musicians, to boot.

[Laxergirl]

I hate how nowadays some band can sound so good over the radio or on a CD and then sound terrible live.

Case in point: Ashlee Simpson.

Jam Bands>Pre-Recorded Edited Studio Albums

[Dan]

You split that post 50/50, laxergirl. Ashlee Simpson sucks live, as well as in the stuido, but jam bands aren't as good as pre-recorded studio albums. Because any band that can make a stellar studio album as a really good live show. Like Radiohead, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, At the Drive-In, Mars Volta, et cetera. And yes, Thom Yorke rocks live. Moondog, try to get some Radiohead concert videos from some bittorrent sites, especially one where they play Kid A. Thom goes crazy on Kid A, and it's awesome. The White Stripes are also really cool live. I got their Glastonbury show, and it's so cool. I love how Jack White sings live. Like, on The Hardest Button to Button, I love how he says "toothache." Jack White is so cool. And Moondog, I'd agree with you, but I don't know who those people really are, at least musically, to understand how good their live show is, but I really want to get into Miles Davis, because he's had so much influence on Radiohead. But compare current "great" jam bands, which suck, to current bands with great studio albums, and I'll take the album any day. I do listen to live concerts on my iPod a lot, though. The Shins jam on a couple songs, but it's a real treat when they do. I have Zep, White Stripes, Radiohead, Shins, DMB (because of my brother) and maybe another band's concerts on my iPod. So I like them, but I prefer their albums.