Penalty Enforcement Quiz [Archive]

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Snake~eyes

05-23-2005, 11:06 AM

1) A1 has the ball, 20 yards off ball A2 and B2 simultenously hold eachother.

Ruling?

2) Between quarters, the officials conduct a stick check and find A1's and B1's sticks to be illegal. (a) both sticks are too short (b) A1's stick has a deep pocket and B1's stick is too short

Ruling?

3) A1 scores a goal at the end of the 1st quarter, the officials ask for his stick and he adjusts the pocket before handing it to the official. His stick is found to be perfectly legal.

Ruling?

You may answer in NCAA or NFHS code just make sure you point out which one!

CoachRob

05-23-2005, 11:18 AM

Should i wait?

LaxRef

05-23-2005, 11:45 AM

Good one. Should maybe point out that at least one ruling is different in NCAA compared to NFHS.

I'll answer later.

Snake~eyes

05-23-2005, 11:53 AM

Should i wait?
Yes! Give some other people a chance!

Good one. Should maybe point out that at least one ruling is different in NCAA compared to NFHS.
I believe you are referring to #3? Correct?

azlaxref1

05-23-2005, 12:04 PM

1) Tell A2 & B2 to knock it off...A1 keeps the ball anyway if you call a simutaneous tech.

2) (a) A1 & B1 serve 3 min UR, no FO award according to AP. (b) A1 serves 1min. UR & B1 serves 3 min UR, no FO award to Team A.

3) NCAA; A1 serves 1 min USC for adjusting no FO award to Team B. NFHS; I've got nothing.

CoachRob

05-23-2005, 12:31 PM

3) A1 scores a goal at the end of the 1st quarter, the officials ask for his stick and he adjusts the pocket before handing it to the official. His stick is found to be perfectly legal.

NCAA; A1 serves 1 min USC for adjusting no FO award to Team B. NFHS; I've got nothing.

I've certainly got something azlr. Tell me, if a player adjust his strings before handing it over to the ref, you've got nothing to say about that? There is a case that describes this situation in the NFHS case book (Hint: see cases found under 5.4).

Snake~eyes

05-23-2005, 12:35 PM

1) Tell A2 & B2 to knock it off...
That's not a good answer, that is what most of us would probably do if it happened to us in a game but by rule it is not an option.

LaxRef

05-23-2005, 12:44 PM

3) NCAA; A1 serves 1 min USC for adjusting no FO award to Team B. NFHS; I've got nothing.

I think you missed a few key points on this one.

CoachRob

05-23-2005, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by azlaxref1
1) Tell A2 & B2 to knock it off...

That's not a good answer. That is what most of us would probably do if it happened to us in a game, but by rule it is not an option.

Uh-oh (drumroll please)...the dreaded simultaneous foul situation where the team in possession has NOT committed a personal foul. OUCH!! What to do? I'll hold off for now, but an excellent quiz Snake.

DanHS

05-23-2005, 01:02 PM

azlaxref1

05-23-2005, 02:14 PM

That's not a good answer, that is what most of us would probably do if it happened to us in a game but by rule it is not an option.

I agree, we can save game management/flow for a different thread. Where was the ball when you blew the whistle to stop play?...A1 had the ball A1 keeps the ball.

LaxRef

05-23-2005, 04:18 PM

#3 The NCAA rules on an illegal crosse apply if the stick is found to be illegal but what to do if it is found to be legal. The player has delayed the game and it is unsportsman-like but none of the specifics of the rules appear to apply.

See

A.R. 5. During game, an official asks a player for his crosse so the official can inspect it. Before the player hands the crosse to the official, he adjusts the strings or jams his crosse into the ground and the crosse is found to be illegal. RULING: A one-minute nonreleasable penalty for pulling on the strings or jamming the head of the crosse into the ground shall be charged. An additional one-minute non-releasable penalty shall be charged if the pocket is found to be illegal. An additional three-minute non-releasable penalty shall be charged if the crosse is found to be altered. The official shall continue with the stick check after calling the penalty for adjusting the strings or jamming the crosse.

The NFHS rule may be slightly different, but I'll save that for later in case some people are still waiting to answer. And I'm not mentioning the key point.

shrekjr

05-23-2005, 06:30 PM

What azlax said, except for the NFHS stuff in #3 because I don't anything but NCAA.

DanHS

05-23-2005, 07:08 PM

It appears that there is a difference in NHSF and NCAA. The one minute NHSF penalty i(5.4 Situation D) s not dependent on the crosse - only on the failure to trun over the crosse. The NCAA does not appeaer to address this situation directly.

sweet_ceX

05-23-2005, 07:47 PM

1. tell a2 and b2 to stop. if it consists call a hold away from the ball.
2. A1 and b1 are in the penalty box for 3 minutes and thier sticks are placed at the bench not to be used again i nthe game.
3.the player is cahrged with unsportsman like.
tell me ifi m right or not or something.

Snake~eyes

05-23-2005, 08:32 PM

1. tell a2 and b2 to stop. if it consists call a hold away from the ball.
As said above telling them to stop is not an option, this is a rules quiz based purely on the rules. If you call a hold how will you enforce the penalty?

2. A1 and b1 are in the penalty box for 3 minutes and thier sticks are placed at the bench not to be used again i nthe game.
Be more specific, how will you start the next quarter

3.the player is cahrged with unsportsman like.

There's more to it then that

LaxRef

05-23-2005, 09:13 PM

1) A1 has the ball, 20 yards off ball A2 and B2 simultenously hold eachother.

Ruling?

Simultaneous live ball fouls with team A in possession. Blow the whistle and award the ball to team A where it was or outside the box. If the ball had been loose, we'd have gone with A.P.

2) Between quarters, the officials conduct a stick check and find A1's and B1's sticks to be illegal. (a) both sticks are too short (b) A1's stick has a deep pocket and B1's stick is too short

Ruling?

These are simultaneous dead ball fouls on A1 and B1.

(a) Both players serve 3:00 NR penalties. If a faceoff was pending, award ball via A.P. (even though many officials will have a faceoff here, it's technically wrong). If there was a team due the ball (e.g., there was possession at the end of the period with a man in the box or one team had a dead ball technical between periods), that team gets it.

(b) A1 gets 1:00 NR and B1 gets 3:00 NR. Award the ball to Team A since they had the lesser penalty time.

3) A1 scores a goal at the end of the 1st quarter, the officials ask for his stick and he adjusts the pocket before handing it to the official. His stick is found to be perfectly legal.

Ruling?

NCAA: 1:00 NR penalty for adjusting the crosse. The goal stands.

NFHS: 1:00 NR penalty for adjusting the crosse. The goal comes off the board!

Personally, I believe these should be USC fouls, but it's unclear. I put it on the list, which I really need to work on soon.

waxon

05-23-2005, 09:38 PM

3rdPersonPlural

05-24-2005, 06:34 PM

Uh-oh (drumroll please)...the dreaded simultaneous foul situation where the team in possession has NOT committed a personal foul. OUCH!! What to do? I'll hold off for now, but an excellent quiz Snake.

blow your whistle, go tell the miscreants to knock it off, then signal a moving pick on a2 and interference on b2, penalties cancel, a1 pleased to step outside of the box and resume play on my whistle.

Snake~eyes

05-25-2005, 03:42 PM

CoachRob

05-25-2005, 04:23 PM

Still awaiting to hear from our Simultaneous Foul Expert, CoachRob.

Sorry, I was busy with other stuff.

1) A1 has the ball, 20 yards off ball A2 and B2 simultenously hold each other.

SF's against A2 and B2; blow whistle to stop play. As both were technical fouls, they cancel and there is no time served; award ball at spot A1 was, or outside the box.

2) Between quarters, the officials conduct a stick check and find A1's and B1's sticks to be illegal. (a) both sticks are too short (b) A1's stick has a deep pocket and B1's stick is too short.
Dead ball simultaneous fouls. Who gets it depends upon total penalty time assessed.
(a) Equal time penalties assessed for altered sticks (3 minutes each); award the ball by AP at center X to start next quarter (assuming neither team was entitled to possession to start the next quarter as might occur with a man down and one team in possession at the end of the quarter). Both players areclocked in for the common time of 3 minutes per 7-2.
(b) A1 gets 1 minute; B1 gets 3 minutes. Award ball to team A at center X due to lesser penalty time; both locked in for 1 minute; final 2 minutes of B1's penalty are releasable per 7-2.

3) A1 scores a goal at the end of the 1st quarter, the officials ask for his stick and he adjusts the pocket before handing it to the official. His stick is found to be perfectly legal.
NFHS: By adjusting his crosse, A1 admits it was illegal and gets a 1 minute NR penalty (not a USC, just a personal foul for illegal crosse). Goal comes off the board due to an illegal crosse. Team B starts the next period at center X.

See 5.4 SITUATION D: During the game, an official asks a player for his crosse so the official can check it. Before the player hands the crosse to the official, he adjusts the strings. RULING: A one-minute nonreleasable penalty must be served. If the player with the adjusted crosse scored a goal just before the crosse inspection ("stick check"), the goal is disallowed.

ref4ee

05-26-2005, 09:34 AM

(b) A1 gets 1 minute; B1 gets 3 minutes. Award ball to team A at center X due to lesser penalty time; both locked in for 1 minute; final 2 minutes of B1's penalty are releasable per 7-2.

Interesting conclusion....you really have to combine 7-2 and 7-4 to get to this conclusion. But the language in 7-2 also says in addition to simultaneous fouls, NR fouls are also "excepted". As B1's fould was a NR penalty, I don't think that because it was also a simultaneous foul that the last 2 minutes of it become releaseable. His penalty time does not expire upon a goal as it was NR.

LaxRef

05-26-2005, 09:50 AM

Interesting conclusion....you really have to combine 7-2 and 7-4 to get to this conclusion. But the language in 7-2 also says in addition to simultaneous fouls, NR fouls are also "excepted". As B1's fould was a NR penalty, I don't think that because it was also a simultaneous foul that the last 2 minutes of it become releaseable. His penalty time does not expire upon a goal as it was NR.

I think you mean 7-6, not 7-4 (Team Penalties). And you're right; CoachRob got so wrapped up in making sure to apply 7-2 and 7-6 properly that he forgot the penalties were already NR.

This is why we hate 7-2 and 7-6! :dummy:

ref4ee

05-26-2005, 10:10 AM

I think you mean 7-6, not 7-4 (Team Penalties). And you're right; CoachRob got so wrapped up in making sure to apply 7-2 and 7-6 properly that he forgot the penalties were already NR.

This is why we hate 7-2 and 7-6! :dummy:

Actually I meant 7.2.4...look there and one could make a convoluted case that the longer penalty time could be converted to releasable...and I thought that was maybe what CoachRob was trying to imply...

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 11:53 AM

Actually I meant 7.2.4...look there and one could make a convoluted case that the longer penalty time could be converted to releasable...and I thought that was maybe what CoachRob was trying to imply...

No, LR was right. I got so caught up in 7-2.4 that i forgot they were illegal crosse penalties, and are NR by definition. So all time is locked in. If they were personal fouls, then my statement would be correct.

While convoluted, it doesn't allow for the LONGER penalty time to be locked in.

Sorry 'bout that. And that IS why we NEED to eliminate 7-2 and 7-6! They are really non-sensical.

:ahhno:

Snake~eyes

05-26-2005, 11:55 AM

No, LR was right. I got so caught up in 7-2.4 that i forgot they were illegal crosse penalties, and are NR by definition. So all time is locked in. If they were personal fouls, then my statement would be correct.

They WERE personal fouls............ :bye:

LaxRef

05-26-2005, 11:57 AM

They WERE personal fouls............ :bye:

I can feel for CoachRob, since I've had threads where I can't seem to say anything right! :whyme:

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 12:06 PM

They WERE personal fouls............ :bye:

I meant RELEASABLE personal fouls. Jeepers, my brain is not connected to my digits today.

Snake~eyes

05-26-2005, 12:13 PM

I can feel for CoachRob, since I've had threads where I can't seem to say anything right! :whyme:
Well its my job to give him a lot of hell for it.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 12:18 PM

Well its my job to give him a lot of hell for it.

That's why G-d created ex-wives, Snake! Where's the love???

Plus, I think I did well on the quiz except for that faux-pas (sp?). In a game, I wouldn't have messed it up because when I signalled each penalty to the bench, i would have signalled them as NR for illegal crosses.

But I'll be on the prowl for your brain farts from now on. :bye:

This weekend wil have some GREAT lax games. I can't wait!