View Full Version : Coach's Challenge
Team A is assessed a one-minute slashing penalty. After the ensuing re-start after 30 seconds of play, or so, Team A scores. Timer now mistakenly releases Team A player from penalty area, unbeknownst to anyone at that time.
FO ensues 10-on-10. At this point, Coach B realizes that Team A should be still down a man. Team A scores after FO and there was no whistle between the FO and the Team A score.
Team B coach asks for double horn and explains Timer's error to the officials. The "video" in everyone's mind was rewound...
Goal was taken off, Team A player was returned for the remainder of his penalty time (Timer had thought it was a 30-second penalty AND he thought all goals released all players).
Everyone seemed happy. Was everything done correctly?
tjslax
05-24-2005, 11:51 AM
My first question would be...Were you starring in that video everyone was replaying in their mind, also?
I believe the situation was handled correctly. Is this a quiz or did this situation arise?
umasslaxref
05-24-2005, 11:56 AM
No, the ball should have been awarded by alternate possession according to 7.13 Situation B. Ruling: ....Ball is awarded according to the alternate-possession rule.
Snake~eyes
05-24-2005, 11:56 AM
I'd have a very hard time taking the goal off the board, I'd have no problem putting the player back in the penalty box for 30-seconds.
tjslax
05-24-2005, 12:04 PM
I think that it's pretty obvious that team A gained an advantage by this situation (if they scored a goal) wether or not the timer released them. I suppose that the officials could be blamed for not ensuring that the correct number of players were on the field but...I think that taking the goal off the board would be the right remedy.
Umass, I see nothing in 7-13 about alternate posession in regards to correction of an error. I do however see that it says "necessary adjustments will be made." Which in my opinion would be removal of the goal.
Snake~eyes
05-24-2005, 12:45 PM
7.13 SITUATION B: B1 is in penalty area for one minute. After 30 seconds of play, he is released by the official timekeeper and B2 scores a goal. Team A notifies officials of timekeeper's mistake. RULING: Goal does not count, and B1 returns to penalty area to serve his remaining 30 seconds. Ball is awarded according to the alternate-possession rule.
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 12:49 PM
Umass, I see nothing in 7-13 about alternate posession in regards to correction of an error. I do however see that it says "necessary adjustments will be made." Which in my opinion would be removal of the goal.
Rarely do we have the benefit of a case play that it so relevant:
SITUATION B: B1 is in penalty area for one minute. After 30 seconds of play, he is released by the official timekeeper and B2 scores a goal. Team A notifies officials of timekeeper's mistake. RULING: Goal does not count, and B1 returns to penalty area to serve his remaining 30 seconds. Ball is awarded according to the alternate-possession rule.
Thus, eme made the right call (assuming he awarded the ball via A.P., but even if he didn't that's the least important part of this, I think).
Snake~eyes
05-24-2005, 12:56 PM
Good job LaxRef, way to just repeat what I said. :chuckle:
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 01:06 PM
Good job LaxRef, way to just repeat what I said. :chuckle:
Oh, you mean the part about having a hard time taking the goal off the board? :chuckle:
Yeah, I started my message before yours was posted. I just don't get to finish a thought in one sitting because of my two "helpers."
tjslax
05-24-2005, 01:06 PM
Ohhh. Sorry, I never made it to the cases to check the A.P., I just was reading the rule language...thanks for pointing it out.
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 01:09 PM
The NFHS rulebook makes this all too common, since they put the cases in the back of the book. I prefer to study the NCAA manual and then study the rule differences.
Snake~eyes
05-24-2005, 01:13 PM
Oh, you mean the part about having a hard time taking the goal off the board? :chuckle:
Yeah, I started my message before yours was posted. I just don't get to finish a thought in one sitting because of my two "helpers."
Well are you saying you'd have no problem taking the goal off the board? I certainly would be prepared to get yelled at by the coach.
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 01:21 PM
Well are you saying you'd have no problem taking the goal off the board? I certainly would be prepared to get yelled at by the coach.
I'd tell him that there's a case play covering this, that it's the proper ruling, and if he wants to yell at someone he should yell at the timer!
(Just kidding!)
DanHS
05-24-2005, 02:02 PM
Is there any time at which the remedy for the problem becomes impossible? The Situation in NHSF is clear but it does not specifiy before the next FO. Could Coach B question this 5 minutes later. You could have evidence if A1 was charged with the penalty and scored to enusing goal.
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 02:17 PM
Is there any time at which the remedy for the problem becomes impossible? The Situation in NHSF is clear but it does not specifiy before the next FO. Could Coach B question this 5 minutes later. You could have evidence if A1 was charged with the penalty and scored to enusing goal.
They have to challenge before the next live ball situation.
I guess what is unclear here is that the timekeeper released A1 after the goal, not during a live ball. One could argue that once the faceoff takes place, we now have our next live ball situation and you can no longer challenge the release (which occured during a dead ball).
If A1 was improperly released during a live ball at, say, 10:00 left in the quarter, and A2 scored a goal with 5:00 left in the quarter, and if there had been no whistles in between, Coach B can still challenge at that point. But if there had been one dead ball and restart in between, it can no longer be challenged.
Snake~eyes
05-24-2005, 02:28 PM
They have to challenge before the next live ball situation.
I guess what is unclear here is that the timekeeper released A1 after the goal, not during a live ball. One could argue that once the faceoff takes place, we now have our next live ball situation and you can no longer challenge the release (which occured during a dead ball).
If A1 was improperly released during a live ball at, say, 10:00 left in the quarter, and A2 scored a goal with 5:00 left in the quarter, and if there had been no whistles in between, Coach B can still challenge at that point. But if there had been one dead ball and restart in between, it can no longer be challenged.
DanHS
05-24-2005, 02:31 PM
For the original scenario - must the Coach make the challenge before the FO?
10:00 time remianing - penalty called - A1 serving penalty
9:45 Team A scores and A1 released prematurely
9:45 FO - teams ready for FO
Must Coach challenge before this FO?
Now you lads are getting at the crux of whether what I did was proper.
The timer released the penalized player before his time was supposed to expire after his team's goal. It was a dead ball situation. The FO, which SHOULD have been an EMO Faceoff, was conducted 10-on10. After this FO, it was then the coach REALIZED the timer's error.
By the book, I think what I did was wrong. But at the time it sure seemed like the fair thing to do and both coaches were in complete agreement which makes 3 of us in error!
LaxRef
05-24-2005, 02:54 PM
If you want to make the scenario even trickier, what if we were in mercy-rule running time in the second half and team A had the wing area vacant by the bench. The timer thinks the penalty is 30 seconds and releases A1 on time just 2 seconds before the faceoff. He runs onto the field to the wing line just before the whistle and before Coach B has a chance to protest.
DanHS
05-24-2005, 03:21 PM
1. That would be one of the many problems with a running penalty clock. The running penalty clock may make it easier for the timekeeper but in most other ways unfair.
2. The timekeeper should notify the referee if a player enters the game prematurely but the rule states at the next dead ball. If the timekeepre notices his/her error in time then they would sound the horn x 2. If the error was noticed too late then keep quiet?
2. In Northern VA the use of high school students as timekeepers or scorers is common but would seem to put too much burden on them when something goes wrong. As has been discussed many time here, coaches, players and fans sometimes blame the referee or umpire for the game. To put a high school team manager in that position/situation seems to be asking for trouble.
laxfan25
06-01-2005, 01:12 PM
By the book, I think what I did was wrong. But at the time it sure seemed like the fair thing to do and both coaches were in complete agreement which makes 3 of us in error!
Since I think one of the main goals of officiating is to promote fair play and good sportsmanship in a safe environment, I think you made the right call, even if "technically" the right to appeal may have expired on the face-off whistle. It also helps that the coaches were in agreement - we need more of that type!