Inadvertant flags and whistles rewrite [Archive]

LaxRef

05-26-2005, 12:39 PM

Here's what I have on this topic. This is all new text since the topic is not currently addressed in NFHS rules. Part of this was written by CoachRob.

RULE 7 SECTION 13
Inadvertent flags and whistles

When there is an inadvertent flag, play must be stopped immediately. At the time of an inadvertent flag or whistle, whichever came first:
(a)...a team in or entitled to possession shall restart play with possession
(b)...if neither team has or is entitled to possession, the ball shall be awarded by the AP rule (unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense).

Play shall be restarted:
(a) At the spot the ball was when the flag was thrown, if there was an inadvertent flag
(b) Where it was when the whistle blew if there was no flag
(c) Outside the attack area in either case.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 01:14 PM

Sounds good. I deleted my thread that stated basically the same thing.

(a) should start: a team [with] or entitled to... (instead of "in").

I would add to (b)...unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense 20 yards lateral to the goal even though it is included in part (c) as it clarifies it is lateral and not at the top of the goal area.

DanHS

05-26-2005, 01:43 PM

What should happen if there is an inadvertent horn during live play? Should players ignore the horn and await a whistle?

tjslax

05-26-2005, 02:03 PM

Players should ignore the horn. As an official...I would probably blow the play dead, and check on the cause of the horn, Yell, "Play on!" and deal with it at the next dead ball or if apropriate have my partner or myself check on the horn during play-again with a play on call. This should be addressed in a mechanics manual I would guess. Players should not be listening to a horn to start or stop play but I can see that some may.

LaxRef

05-26-2005, 02:07 PM

What should happen if there is an inadvertent horn during live play? Should players ignore the horn and await a whistle?

I'm inclined to think you need to treat it as an inadvertant whistle, since players may well believe that it's the ned of the period and let up. What if I re-write to say:

When there is an inadvertent flag, play must be stopped immediately. At the time of an inadvertent flag, horn or whistle, whichever came first:
(a)...a team in or entitled to possession shall restart play with possession
(b)...if neither team has or is entitled to possession, the ball shall be awarded by the AP rule (unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense).

DanHS

05-26-2005, 02:22 PM

There doesn't seem to be a good answer but the safest way would be to treat the horn as an inadvertent whistle and for the official to blow the play dead. Players should be 'taught' to catch a pass that is in the air.

3rdPersonPlural

05-26-2005, 04:00 PM

'at the spot where the flag was thrown' should also include wording that moves the ball out of the box if the flag is inside.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 04:06 PM

'at the spot where the flag was thrown' should also include wording that moves the ball out of the box if the flag is inside.

3pp,
LR wrote "At the spot the ball was when the flag was thrown", not where the FLAG was. It's where the BALL is when the flag is thrown, not the reverse.

3rdPersonPlural

05-26-2005, 04:31 PM

3pp,
LR wrote "At the spot the ball was when the flag was thrown", not where the FLAG was. It's where the BALL is when the flag is thrown, not the reverse.

Same difference. If the ball was inside the box, it has to be restarted outside the box lateral to the locus of the foul.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 04:46 PM

...or at the top of the box if that's closer. But your comment about the flag being inside the box confused me because it has no bearing on where the ball is restarted. I know YOU know that. I just wanted to make sure everybody else did.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 05:05 PM

So the final version is:

RULE 7 SECTION 13
Inadvertent Flags and Whistles

At the time of an inadvertent flag, horn or whistle, whichever came first, play must be stopped immediately and:
(a)...a team with, or entitled to, possession shall restart play with possession.
(b)...if neither team has or is entitled to possession, the ball shall be awarded by the AP rule (unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense 20 yards lateral to the goal).

Play shall be restarted:
(a) At the spot the ball was when the flag was thrown, if there was an inadvertent flag.
(b) Where it was when the whistle blew if there was no flag.
(c) Outside the attack area in either case.

3rdPersonPlural

05-26-2005, 05:37 PM

]The final version of part 2 should be:

RULE 7 SECTION 13
Inadvertent Flags and Whistles

Play shall be restarted:
(a) If there was an inadvertent flag, at the spot the ball was when the flag was thrown. Play shall be restarted outside the attack area if the ball was inside the attack area.
(b) If there was an inadvertant whistle, where it was when the whistle blew.
Play shall be restarted outside the attack area if the ball was inside the attack area.

CoachRob

05-26-2005, 08:13 PM

(b) If there was an inadvertant whistle [or horn], where it was when the whistle [or horn sounded]. Play shall be restarted outside the attack area if the ball was inside the attack area.

LaxRef

06-23-2005, 08:15 AM

Do we need to add something to this saying that if there is an inadvertant flag thrown against team B, and the officials don't realize it and let play continue, and team A scores, then the goal stands?

tjslax

06-23-2005, 08:33 AM

Probably not a bad idea in case the situation arises-there would be no question about what to do. Most of us that come to the forum would probably realize it anyway but it's always better to have the answer available.

DanHS

06-23-2005, 11:15 AM

surveyor12

06-23-2005, 11:26 AM

LaxRef

06-23-2005, 11:56 AM

At the time of an inadvertent flag, horn or whistle, whichever came first, play must be stopped immediately

When I throw an inadvertent flag, I do NOT stop play immediately. Do you guys? Of course a whistle or horn does stop it, but a flag? Why? It may disadvantage the team A (in possession) if, for instance, you inadvertently flag team B while A is driving towards goal. Why stop it immediately? I think this issue needs revisiting

I'm proposing this as a standard way to handle it. You may well disadvantage the team with the ball if you stop play immediately, but you may disadvantage them if you let play continue (since they'll be thinking that they can't let the ball hit the ground or bring it out of the attack area, and they'll think they are assured of retaining possession when they take a shot).

Suppose there's an inadvertant flag and you let play continue, and team A takes a shot which is backed up by team B. Now what do you do? Team A thinks they should get possession because there was a flag down and they took a shot thinking they'd get possession regardless of the outcome. Team B thinks they should get it because they backed it up and there was in fact no foul.

OTOH, if you blow the whistle immediately, team A gets the ball--which they were supposed to have--and you limit the time the game is played under false assumptions.

The bottom line is that someone is going to be unhappy if you throw an inadvertant flag no matter how you handle it, so there should at least be a standard way of handling it.

However, my thinking is that if the officials don't realize that the flag is inadvertant and play continues, resulting in a goal, the offense scored despite playing under restricted circumstances, so the goal should count. I could be swayed otherwise, though.

tjslax

06-23-2005, 12:05 PM

My feeling is that if a flag is dropped inadvertantly play should continue until when it would have normally been stopped (due to the flag). At that point it should be awarded as discussed earlier in this thread.

An inadvertant horn should be treated as an inadvertant whistle and play should be restarted.

The horn I believe will have a greater effect on how the play evolves (some players not playing) than an inadvertant flag.

LaxRef

06-23-2005, 12:24 PM

Are we saying that a goal stands regardless of an inadvertent flag, which could include a flag that fell by accident, against either team? The official should pick up the flag and signal the ‘disregard flag’. The signal for disregard may be given during the course of play or at stoppage.

A flag that falls out of your shorts is not an inadvertant flag, unless you also happen to inadvertantly yell "Flag down!" at the same time. :chuckle:

And I don't think you can pick up a flag and wave it off during play, since there's no guarantee that everyone who heard you yell "Flag down!" will see you wave it off, and it may have already affected the play by the time you wave it off. Also, you might have to run way back up the field to get the flag to wave it off. No, I think it's better to stop play, apologize for screwing up, and restart play with everyone on the same page.

LaxRef

06-23-2005, 12:31 PM

The horn I believe will have a greater effect on how the play evolves (some players not playing) than an inadvertant flag.

But do you deny that the inadvertant flag has an effect? :thinking:

surveyor12

06-23-2005, 12:36 PM

I think it does. Perhaps stopping play immediately is the way to go here.

DanHS

06-23-2005, 12:45 PM

1. Point taken - A flag that is dropped accidentally is not an inadvertent flag but viewed from the bench or the stands it could have the same affect. The visual sing of a flag on the field is sometimes more obvious than the verbal "Flag down". It could have an impact on the course of play.

2. There is a difference in the inadvertant flag and inadventent whistle (horn). The whistle should have an immediate impact and play must be stopped. As we have discussed the horn will impact some player but maybe not all but for safety - play should be stopped.

3. The only 'good' answer for the inadvertent flag may be consistency. I think play should be stopped when it have stopped otherwise. A goal would stand and penalties for 'real' fouls would be enforced.

OGND

06-23-2005, 09:00 PM

...Suppose there's an inadvertant flag and you let play continue, and team A takes a shot which is backed up by team B. Now what do you do? Team A thinks they should get possession because there was a flag down and they took a shot thinking they'd get possession regardless of the outcome. Team B thinks they should get it because they backed it up and there was in fact no foul.
In my humble opinion, stopping play immediately for an inadvertent flag is a mistake. I believe the current interpretation grants possession to the team that had possession at the time of the inadvertent flag.

I think adding a few words to A.R. 59 in Rule 7-12 (NCAA) would clear up most, if not all, of this situation.
A.R. 59. In the case of a play-on, an inadvertent flag or an inadvertent whistle, possession shall be awarded to the team that had possession at the time of the inadvertent play-on, inadvertent flag or inadvertent whistle or, if the ball was loose, by alternate possession.
The words in bold are my suggested addition. In LaxRef's example above, Team B might still be PO'd, but so be it.

Some of LaxRef's and Coach Rob's language may help here, as well as in the NFHS book. But, in general, I hate to see any rule "overwritten".

LaxRef

06-23-2005, 11:09 PM

In my humble opinion, stopping play immediately for an inadvertant flag is a mistake. I believe the current interpretation grants possession to the team that had possession at the time of the inadvertant flag.

In any case, there needs to be a clear explanation of what to do when there is an inadvertant flag: either let play continue until you'd normally kill it on a flag down or kill the play immediately. You just can't let some people do it one way and some people do it another way.

IMHO, I think the easiest way to handle it is to tell everyone to kill the play immediately.

OGND

06-24-2005, 12:57 AM

In any case, there needs to be a clear explanation of what to do when there is an inadvertant flag: either let play continue until you'd normally kill it on a flag down or kill the play immediately. You just can't let some people do it one way and some people do it another way.
I whole-heartedly agree.

IMHO, I think the easiest way to handle it is to tell everyone to kill the play immediately.
Easiest? - Yes. But the most egregious result would be to take a goal away from the team in possession because we blow the whistle as soon as we realize the flag is inadvertant- just as the ball enters the goal. We can avoid this situation by killing the play when we'd normally kill the flag down. A brief crew meeting to discuss the situation, followed by the referee's announcement of the inadvertent flag, and awarding possession back to the team that had it at the time of that flag would create minimal disruption and quick clean-up.

Could this could be handled as a clarification to mechanics, with only a little bit of rule rewriting?

Woodenstick

06-24-2005, 07:44 AM

It seems to me the rule for the referee should be "do as little damage as possible." We already screwed up with the inadvertent flag. Now its damage control time.

If there is an inadvertant flag with possession and play is static or becomes static(nothing is happening), blow the whistle, stop play, and leave the ball in the same team's possession. No impact on the game.

If you wait until the team in possession loses the ball and then give it back to that team, you have effectively penalized the defensive team for your error. Now you have impacted the game and advantaged one team. Of course, if you wait until the flag situation would be over, the offensive team MAY retain the ball, and then no harm has been done, but why take that chance?

Harder decision is what to do when play is NOT static. In my view, the least damage is done by blowing the whistle as soon as possible without interfering with a scoring chance. But reasonable people can differ here, and since I am as humble as the rest of you, I am open to suggestions. But it seems to me that "damage control" rather than simplicity should be the guiding principle.

-

laxfan25

06-27-2005, 01:41 PM

Woodenstick

06-28-2005, 08:25 AM

IMHO, the mechanic should be to stop play immediately on an inadvertant flag, horn or whistle. The likelihood of stopping play as a shot is taken is remote, and I think consistency of application is more important, even if a goal has to be disallowed. Just make sure to whistle it dead as soon as you realize the mistake.

There are a lot of factors to consider here. Certainly an inadvertent whistle stops play. As I suggested earlier, I think an inadvertent flag should generatee an immediate whistle if you are not stopping an imminient scoring play. As for the horn, that is usually controlled by the appointed people from the home team, and I would be reluctant to give those people the power to stop play without the referee.

But again, the guiding principle should be do the least harm, and if you stop a scoring play, that is harm. Players know not to stop just because a flag is down, and should know not to stop just because a horn sounds.

LaxRef

06-28-2005, 10:02 AM

Okay, what about this:

RULE 7 SECTION 13
Inadvertent Flags and Whistles

At the time of an inadvertent whistle, play must be stopped immediately. In the case of an inadvertent flag or horn, officials will stop play at the earliest opportunity that does not interfere with an imminent scoring opportunity. Possession shall be awarded as follows:

(a) A team with, or entitled to, possession shall restart play with possession.

(b) If neither team has or is entitled to possession, the ball shall be awarded by the AP rule (unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense 20 yards lateral to the goal).

(c) If play continues after an inadvertent flag or horn and a goal is scored, play will be restarted with a faceoff.

Except in case (c), play shall be restarted at the spot the ball was when the whistle blew or outside the attack area.

Woodenstick

06-28-2005, 11:16 AM

That sounds good to me.

LaxRef

06-28-2005, 12:57 PM

Let's try this again:

RULE 7 SECTION 13
Inadvertent Flags and Whistles

At the time of an inadvertent whistle, play must be stopped immediately. In the case of an inadvertent flag or horn, officials will stop play at the earliest opportunity that does not interfere with an imminent scoring opportunity. Possession shall be awarded as follows:

(a) A team with, or entitled to, possession at the time of the whistle shall restart play with possession.

(b) If neither team has or is entitled to possession at the time of the whistle, the ball shall be awarded by the AP rule (unless the ball is in the crease, in which case it is awarded to the defense 20 yards lateral to the goal).

(c) If play continues after an inadvertent flag or horn and (1) a goal is scored, play will be restarted with a faceoff (2) a shot is taken with no goal scored, the ball shall be awarded by alternate possession outside the attack area (3) no shot is taken, the ball is awarded to the team in possession.

Except in the case of a faceoff, play shall be restarted at the spot the ball was when the whistle blew or outside the attack area.

=======

Why the added text? Well, if the team with possession gets a shot off, I don't think they should automatically get the ball back. Why should they get a shot and get the ball back when they were really only entitled to the ball. I think going to A.P. after a shot is the only fair adjustment for allowing play to continue if there's a scoring opportunity on an inadvertant flag.

surveyor12

06-28-2005, 01:06 PM

(3) no shot is taken, the ball is awarded to the team in possession.

IF you decide to stop it after an incompleted pass, nobody is in possession, so the team that HAD the ball may now lose it by AP. I don't think this is what you're trying to say.

I think this is what you intended:

(3) no shot is taken, the ball is awarded to the team last in possession.

So, A1 has the ball, inadv. flag against B1, no shot or goal, A1 passes to A2 who drops it, whistle blows. "Sorry folks, my bad, restart with team A outside the box". Toot.

Woodenstick

06-28-2005, 05:16 PM

LaxRef

06-28-2005, 06:59 PM

"(2) a shot is taken with no goal scored, the ball shall be awarded by alternate possession outside the attack area"

Why not just give the ball to however was closest?

I think our objective should be to have the inadvertent flag/horn have as little impact on the game as possible. On a shot with no flag/horn, the closest team would have had the ball, so why not stay with that result?

Because now we're opening a whole new can of worms. The shooting team doesn't even think they need to back up the shot, since there's a flag down, which should get them possession regardless of who's closest to it when it goes out. And, actually, that's if it goes out, since there's no guarantee that a shot goes out of bounds. Now, if it doesn't go out, do you wait to see who gains possession? What if the shooting team gains possession and then has another shot opportunity?

While it's true that we want to impact the game as little as possible, the real key to that is to not throw inadvertant flags. For the case when that happens, we need a rule that people can remember and which is mostly fair. I had thought about adding something about awarding the ball to whoever is closest, but I don't think there's enough benefit to justify the added complexity.