Stalling quiz

[LaxRef]

Team A has been warned for stalling and has the ball in the box.

1) A1 passes the ball toward A2, but B1 deflects the pass out of the attack area and team A recovers.

2) A1 drops the ball and B1 kicks the ball out of the attack area. Team A recovers.

3) A1 drops the ball and B1 knocks the ball out of the attack area as he tries to scoop it. Team A recovers.

4) A1 shoots the ball, which rolls out of the attack area and team A recovers.

What's the ruling in each case (should be the same in NCAA and NFHS)?

[umasslaxref]

1) Team A has ten seconds to get the ball back into the offensive zone. Stall warning still in effect.

2) Team A has ten seconds to get the ball back into the offensive zone. Stall warning still in effect.

3) Team A has ten seconds to get the ball back into the offensive zone. Stall warning still in effect.

4)Team A has ten seconds to get the ball back into the offensive zone. Stall warning still in effect.

In cases 1-3 the ball has been knocked out of the offensive zone by B, making the ball "free".

[tjslax]

I agree with UMass except in case 4. I would call stalling and award the ball to team B.

[azlaxref1]

How do you guys call the play-on when the ball comes out of the offensive zone? Some refs I have worked with say immeadiate whistle (or "play-on" immeadiate whislte) others let them play-on only if there is an obvious advantage (fast break for the D) and some let them play-on as if it was just a normal loose ball tech call....it can get interesting with 10 seconds left in a one goal game and the ref's play-on burns 4-5 seconds off the clock.

[CoachRob]

Team A has been warned for stalling and has the ball in the box.
The relevant NFHS rule is:
ART. 2 . . . The ball goes out of the goal area in any manner, except as a result of a shot on goal or a deflection by the defensive team. In that situation, the ball shall be recovered by or awarded to the defensive team if the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession. When they say "In that situation...", they make it sound as if it refers to the deflection or shot, but I believe they're referring to any case OTHER than a deflection or shot. A bit confusing.

1) A1 passes the ball toward A2, but B1 deflects the pass out of the attack area and team A recovers.
Team A is allowed to recover it. I don' t know if the stalling warning is still in effect upon reentering the box, however. The closest case I can find is this:
6.10 SITUATION L: Team A has been warned to "keep it in." After recovering a shot or pass deflected by the defense outside the attack area, does Team A have a full 10 seconds before it must bring the ball back into the attack area? RULING: Yes.
They don't state the stalling warning is still in effect. I don't see why it would be as when they enter the box, it is a whole new scenario.

2) A1 drops the ball and B1 kicks the ball out of the attack area. Team A recovers.
No, this is stalling. Ball awarded to team B. The closest case I find is this:
6.10 SITUATION K: Team A has been warned to "keep it in." Attackman A1 has possession of the ball and is played by B1. As A1 is forced close to the attack-area line, the ball becomes loose and bounces outside of the attack area. May Team A legally regain possession of the ball? RULING: No.
Whether team A or B kicks it is of no consequence IMO. Although, if team B deflects it team A can recover it, so why not after team B purposely kicks it out of the box? Seems inconsistent.

3) A1 drops the ball and B1 knocks the ball out of the attack area as he tries to scoop it. Team A recovers.
No, this is stalling. Ball awarded to team B.

4) A1 shoots the ball, which rolls out of the attack area and team A recovers.
As it was a shot, it is not stalling if team A recovers.

[tjslax]

Wow, did I ever do bad on that quiz...Good thing we don't have many coaches like coach Rob up here!

[CoachRob]

Who said I got them right? They are only what I think. Only LaxRef knows the answers he's looking for. But you're right when yous say it is a good thing you don't have many coaches like me in Vermont; it would bring down the level of play dramatically (although we finished 19-2 in just our second season of existence.). ;-)

[tjslax]

Well, I think that what you think is right!-at least in this case.

Also, I'm not so sure how someone who has taken so much time and energy to learn a game as thoroughly as you could possibly bring the level of the game down. I wish we had more like you...although that may make my job a little harder at times too.

[CoachRob]

In cases 1-3 the ball has been knocked out of the offensive zone by B, making the ball "free".

But umass, I think that's the purpose of the stalling warning. If team B manages to get the ball out of the box, except on a deflection or a shot, then they get the ball. While many people only think of team B pushing A1 out of the box while in possession, or A1 dropping or passing it out of the area, I think that may be too limited a view. If A1 drops it, and B2 tries to scoop it and misses it, they should still get it.

IMO, it's similar to a shot on goal. If, before the ball has come to rest, team B tries to pick it up but knocks it out of bounds and still is closest to it at the spot it crosses the line, team B gets it.

As I see it, the stalling warning is used to encourage team B to play aggressively and force team A into an error. If team A drops it and team B misses the scoop, they have still achieved their objective; getting the ball out of the box and receiving possession.

[CoachRob]

Well, I think that what you think is right!-at least in this case.

Also, I'm not so sure how someone who has taken so much time and energy to learn a game as thoroughly as you could possibly bring the level of the game down. I wish we had more like you...although that may make my job a little harder at times too.

Thank you for the compliment.

But we'll wait for LR's answers to be sure. He usually has a trick up his short striped sleeve.

[CoachRob]

I don't understand why a DEFLECTION should be treated the same as a SHOT. If team B deflects it out of the box as the result of good defensive play, I think they have achieved their objective, just as if they pushed A1 out of the box. It think the only way team A should be able to keep the ball is recovery after a shot.

I mean, B2 has made a diving attempt to knock the ball down, it exits the box, and team A can regain possession? I don't find that reasonable. If you allow a deflection to be regained by team A, then as Umass said, why not a purposeful kick?

In fact, I can make a MUCH better case that A can regain possession after team B purposely kicks it out than after they deflect it out. I see no justification for allowing team A to get it after a team B deflection. They did their job and potentially have nothing to show for it.

I think it would be MUCH cleaner if the rule were written this way:

(My proposed additions are in bold.)
ART. 2 . . . The ball goes out of the goal area in any manner, except as a result of a shot on goal (delete--> or a deflection by the defensive team <--delete). In (delete--> that situation <--delete) the former situation [referring to the first part of the sentence], the ball shall be recovered by, or awarded to, the defensive team if the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession. In the latter situation after a shot, it shall be considered a free ball once it has left the box. Either team is then entitled to possession. Should the ball leave the field of play after the shot, it shall be awarded according to Rule 4-6.2.c.

What do you guys think? Quite simply, they lose it unless it is recovered after a shot. This takes ALL the guess work out of it.

[umasslaxref]

Having had time over lunch to look at the rule book, I will change my above answers to be as you have corrected them. Thank you. I used to referee in the Philly area and hold in high esteem a few of the coaches down there who are at every PDLOA officials' meeting. They are on top of their game as well as ours. I pity the poor official who has to hear from a coach that a particular rule or scenario was discussed just last night at the meeting. "You mean you didn't go?"

Quote: "Team A is allowed to recover it. I don' t know if the stalling warning is still in effect upon reentering the box, however. The closest case I can find is this:
6.10 SITUATION L: Team A has been warned to "keep it in." After recovering a shot or pass deflected by the defense outside the attack area, does Team A have a full 10 seconds before it must bring the ball back into the attack area? RULING: Yes.
They don't state the stalling warning is still in effect. I don't see why it would be as when they enter the box, it is a whole new scenario."

A stall warning remains in effect until a team scores a goal or losses possession. There was a good example this past weekend during one of the Saturday games. One team (I don't remember which) had a stall warning on and the ball became loose; as soon as the team regained possession in the box the coach called for a time out. Upon resumption of play the officials put the stall warning back in effect as soon as the ball entered the attack area.

[CoachRob]

That doesn't seem fair. Suppose they were stalling to kill a penalty situation? Now, when their man reenters the field, the stall is still in effect? Once they start attacking the goal, the stall should be off IMO.

[tjslax]

I like your changes here CR.

I don't understand why a DEFLECTION should be treated the same as a SHOT. If team B deflects it out of the box as the result of good defensive play, I think they have achieved their objective, just as if they pushed A1 out of the box. It think the only way team A should be able to keep the ball is recovery after a shot.

I mean, B2 has made a diving attempt to knock the ball down, it exits the box, and team A can regain possession? I don't find that reasonable. If you allow a deflection to be regained by team A, then as Umass said, why not a purposeful kick?

In fact, I can make a MUCH better case that A can regain possession after team B purposely kicks it out than after they deflect it out. I see no justification for allowing team A to get it after a team B deflection. They did their job and potentially have nothing to show for it.

I think it would be MUCH cleaner if the rule were written this way:

(My proposed additions are in bold.)
ART. 2 . . . The ball goes out of the goal area in any manner, except as a result of a shot on goal (delete--> or a deflection by the defensive team <--delete). In (delete--> that situation <--delete) the former situation [referring to the first part of the sentence], the ball shall be recovered by, or awarded to, the defensive team if the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession. In the latter situation after a shot, it shall be considered a free ball once it has left the box. Either team is then entitled to possession. Should the ball leave the field of play after the shot, it shall be awarded according to Rule 4-6.2.c.

What do you guys think? Quite simply, they lose it unless it is recovered after a shot. This takes ALL the guess work out of it.

[CoachRob]

LaxREf,
Could you comment and possibly add this to the "list", which must be more like a tome at this point?

[tjslax]

Making all these changes to the rule book may turn out to be as daunting a task as drafting the US Constitution. Well, we have air-conditioning and sports center every evening, so it won't be quite that bad but...

[CoachRob]

But I think every change we are suggesting is VERY reasonable and does not add any rules that I can recall. Rather, it clarifies them and straightens out some misconceptions. I think any ref would welcome the changes. Now, if we had ADDED some rules, that would be different and would be more daunting.

The only distinct rule I remember adding was the one on Inadvertent Whitles/Flags, but this was just putting the bits and pieces that are spread throughout the rules and cases all in one handy place.

[tjslax]

Believe me CR, no disagreements on most all the rules LR has changes for, I'm all for simplifying and clarifying.

[umasslaxref]

Coach Rob etal,

I applaud all of the work you are doing to clarify the rules. I have been a referee for many years and have a pretty good grasp of the rules. I can remember how difficult to learn the rules seemed to be back in the early 90's when I only had to read the NCAA rule book. If we can get the rulebook easier to read I think we can train and keep better officials. For the newbies out there it would be wonderful if there was a videotape that gave an example of the major rule violations such as slashing, illegal body check, etc.

[DanHS]

1. If we (you) are attempting to clarify the stalling rule then the scenario regarding a shot that rolls dead should be added. The was a discussion about a shot that 'stops' is no longer a shot.

[azlaxref1]

A stall warning remains in effect until a team scores a goal or losses possession. There was a good example this past weekend during one of the Saturday games. One team (I don't remember which) had a stall warning on and the ball became loose; as soon as the team regained possession in the box the coach called for a time out. Upon resumption of play the officials put the stall warning back in effect as soon as the ball entered the attack area.


Shouldn't it be; A stall warning remains in effect until that team scores a goal or the other team gains possession?

[CoachRob]

1. If we (you) are attempting to clarify the stalling rule then the scenario regarding a shot that rolls dead should be added. The was a discussion about a shot that 'stops' is no longer a shot.

That would have to be added to 4.6-2 which deals with shots and OOB. There are case scenarios discussing this (below).

But it makes sense in that a shot that has come to rest is no longer a shot, and therefore is not considered the same by the rulemakers.

The cases in question:

4.6 SITUATION E: A shot misses goal, and the ball comes to rest on the ground behind the goal. A2 tries to scoop the ball, but it goes out of bounds. RULING: Ball awarded to Team B.

4.6 SITUATION I: There is a deflected shot at goal that rolls toward the boundary line. A1, in trying to pick up the ball, does not gain possession, and the ball goes out of bounds. A1 is nearest to the out-of-bounds spot. RULING: Ball awarded to Team A.

4.6 SITUATION J: A1 shoots at goal, and the ball goes over goal toward the end line. A2 tries to catch the ball in flight, and the ball hits his crosse and goes out of bounds. A2 is nearest to the out-of-bounds spot. RULING: Ball awarded to Team A.

Again, the difference is that in sits. I and J, the ball is still moving and thus considered a shot. In E, it has stopped and is no longer a shot (it's just a loose ball sitting there).

[DanHS]

If the stall warning was in effect for Situation E above would the ball be awarded to the defensive team if either team tried to scoop the ball and it were to go over the end line or out of the attack area?

[CoachRob]

If the stall warning was in effect for Situation E above would the ball be awarded to the defensive team if either team tried to scoop the ball and it were to go over the end line or out of the attack area?

I believe the pertinent part of the rule is this;
ART. 2 . . . The ball goes out of the goal area in any manner, except as a result of a shot on goal...

Since the ball has NOT left the goal area, stalling is still in effect and the shot is not a shot any longer. If team B scooped it out of the area but never gained possession as you described, I believe they would be awarded the ball by rule. However, in a real game, I might be inclined to award it to whomever gains possession (or is entitled to it should it go OOB) since team A DID end their stall with the shot. It's not really their fault the shot was too weak to leave the box.

[CoachRob]

Laxref,
What's the answer you are looking for on the quiz? Were my answers correct or did I err on any?

Do you agree with my suggested changes to the rule regarding a deflected pass?

[LaxRef]

Laxref,
What's the answer you are looking for on the quiz? Were my answers correct or did I err on any?

Do you agree with my suggested changes to the rule regarding a deflected pass?


I need to look more carefully at your proposed changes, but I'm sure there are some good points there.

Here are my thoughts:

The rules talk about "except as a result of a shot on goal or a deflection by the defensive team." Thus, in 1 and 4, team A keeps possession, although I think they should have to keep the ball in once they get it back in the attack area (the rules aren't clear on that, but I believe only a goal or team B gaining possession should end the stalling situation, since otherwise it's too easy for team A to take a high "shot" with no chance of it going in and then back it up to keep possession and end the stall warning).

As for 2 and 3, I don't know. I don't think either one qualifies as a "deflection," so I'd award the ball to team B, but who knows what the rule writers meant by that word? It's sure not defined anywhere.

[CoachRob]

So we agree and thus the reason for my rewrite of the rule. It is NOT explained currently, and my proposal aims to fix that. Read it when you have a chance (repeated below).

ART. 2 . . . The ball goes out of the goal area in any manner, except as a result of a shot on goal. In the former situation, the ball shall be recovered by, or awarded to, the defensive team if the offensive team touches the ball before the defensive team gains possession. In the latter situation after a shot, it shall be considered a free ball once it has left the box. Either team is then entitled to possession. Should the ball leave the field of play after the shot, it shall be awarded according to Rule 4-6.2.c.

[laxfan25]

Just to add my two cents, my interpretation on al of the situations is that Team A should be allowed to recover the ball and have 10 seconds to get it in, and put the stall warning on again. I believe the intent of the rules is that if the defensive team causes the ball to leave the box, by a "deflection" off his stick on a pass or shot, or "deflection" off his foot while kicking or scooping, it should not penalize Team A by preventing them from playing the ground ball. After all, it's not Team A's fault that it left the box. If that is not the correct interpretation, it SHOULD be.

[CoachRob]

Which is why I eliminated the word "deflection" from my revised rule. The only way team A should be able to keep it is if it leaves the box after a shot. Period. Now you see why I suggested this change.

BTW: welcome to the very best forum there is laxfan25! Check in early and often and help us learn.

[laxfan25]

I'm very happy to have come across this site! Thanks LaxRef!
CoachRob, I hadn't thoroughly read through all the replies (being at work, you know). I'll have to take a closer look later. In my mind though, I still think if the D causes the ball to leave the box, it should be a free ball. Seems kind of harsh to give it to the D, after all it's just a stalling warning.
I definitely look forward to participating in these discussions! It looks like a very vibrant community on here, with no shortage of opinions (well-reasoned, of course) and some well-known characters. Nice to have eme on here as well!

[CoachRob]

In my mind though, I still think if the D causes the ball to leave the box, it should be a free ball. Seems kind of harsh to give it to the D, after all it's just a stalling warning.

But that is the point. Team B is encouraged to get the ball out of the box in any way possible. If they succeed, I believe they deserve the ball. To get a stalling warning, team A has to REALLY be slowing things down, so it's not like they don't know it's coming.