Flag during a Play on

[rilax]

Hear is one A1 is about to pick up the ball off the ground and he is pushed by B1. During the course of the play on A1 is slashed by B2.

1)Does the play-on continue?

2)Does B1 serve any penalty time?

I know that a play-on cannot be started by a personal foul but don’t see anywhere that it causes a play-on to end. I could be wrong on this but looks like 1: yes and 2: no. Thoughts?

[laxfan25]

IMHO, I would say that since the ball is supposedly still on the ground, it would be an immediate whistle and B2 would serve a minute. No time to B1.
If A1 had been able to pick up the ball before the slash, play on is off and you now have a flag-down slow whistle.

[AZReDWiNG]

Hear is one A1 is about to pick up the ball off the ground and he is pushed by B1. During the course of the play on A1 is slashed by B2.

1)Does the play-on continue?

2)Does B1 serve any penalty time?

I know that a play-on cannot be started by a personal foul but don’t see anywhere that it causes a play-on to end. I could be wrong on this but looks like 1: yes and 2: no. Thoughts?

Okay, so the ball is on the ground, right. B1 pushes A1 which starts the play-on (loose ball push), and B2 then slashes A1. FDSW, but since the ball's already on the ground I'm guessing the whistle is immediate. B2 goes to the box for slashing, B1 gets nothing (as it was a loose ball push, that's a change of possession foul).

Now, where the ball starts on the restart is the tricky part..

[laxfan25]

Now, where the ball starts on the restart is the tricky part..
That's the easy part. D end - free clear. Inside the box, take it out. Attack end outside the box, where the foul occurred. Same as any other time-serving penalty.

[LaxRef]

Okay, so the ball is on the ground, right. B1 pushes A1 which starts the play-on (loose ball push), and B2 then slashes A1. FDSW, but since the ball's already on the ground I'm guessing the whistle is immediate.

You're right that it's not entirely clear. However, practice is to blow the whistle immediately on a loose ball personal foul.

B2 goes to the box for slashing, B1 gets nothing (as it was a loose ball push, that's a change of possession foul).

This is not so straightforward, although you're right in this case. See:

http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=19393

Now, where the ball starts on the restart is the tricky part..

It would be a little trickier if it were a simul foul situation, but here it's a free clear or where the ball was (but outside the box).

[OGND]

It would be a little trickier if it were a simul foul situation, but here it's a free clear or where the ball was (but outside the box).
Aren't the fouls simultaneous? They both occured during a live ball. Therefore, no free clear.

We use a simple saying here: "Live ball, live ball- leave it. Live ball, dead ball- dead center". The first case refers to simultaneous fouls, which do not result in a free clear. In the latter case, the fouls are not simultaneous (though penalty time is locked in for the lesser time of the fouls), and the ball is cleared.

[LaxRef]

Aren't the fouls simultaneous? They both occured during a live ball. Therefore, no free clear.

Nope. They're only simultaneous if there are fouls on opposing teams. Here, both fouls are by team B.

[OGND]

Oops- sorry LR. I didn't read closely enough.

[LaxRef]

Oops- sorry LR. I didn't read closely enough.


No problem; I was very close to making the same mistake!

[old geezer]

While the rules do not directly say what you do when you have a personal foul commited by team B after they have already commited a play-on technical foul, you can determine by the process of elimination that the play is stopped immediately with the personal foul if the ball is still loose.

You can also go the AR 45 after rule 7-11 and it states that play stops immediately with a personal foul in the loose ball situation.

[rilax]

You can also go the AR 45 after rule 7-11 and it states that play stops immediately with a personal foul in the loose ball situation.

Well AR 45 does not have a play on situation...

What about looking at it this way: A.R. 50 says “The play-on signifies possession” and then 7-8 says that “If a defending player commits a foul against an attacking player and an attacking player has possession of the ball…the official must drop a signal flag, make the verbal signal “flag down” and withhold his whistle until:” Now since A.R. 50 says that play on = equals possession and that a personal foul occurred while the play on was in effect isn’t it as if the personal foul occurred when the ball was in possession. Also note that 7-8 states that the slow whistle stops when: “A loose ball results” not something “The ball is loose” which makes it seem as if the ball becomes loose either by the ball being picked up and dropped or the play-on terminates in a manner other than the player picking up the ball.

[surveyor12]

Doesn't matter if a play on is happening. A personal fuol during a loose ball is an immediate wistle. You can't have a personal foul with a loose ball and allow play to continue as far as I know.

[LaxRef]

Well AR 45 does not have a play on situation...

What about looking at it this way: A.R. 50 says “The play-on signifies possession” and then 7-8 says that “If a defending player commits a foul against an attacking player and an attacking player has possession of the ball…the official must drop a signal flag, make the verbal signal “flag down” and withhold his whistle until:” Now since A.R. 50 says that play on = equals possession and that a personal foul occurred while the play on was in effect isn’t it as if the personal foul occurred when the ball was in possession. Also note that 7-8 states that the slow whistle stops when: “A loose ball results” not something “The ball is loose” which makes it seem as if the ball becomes loose either by the ball being picked up and dropped or the play-on terminates in a manner other than the player picking up the ball.

We're having to work too hard to justify this by the rules. Personally, I think they just forgot to say it.

BTW, a play on "signifies" possession, it does not "equal" possession. Think about this:

A1 pushes B1 during a loose ball, play on. Then A2 pushes B2 while the ball is still loose. Do you send B2 off for 30 seconds because team A "had possession" due to the play on, even though the ball is still loose.

[LaxRef]

Doesn't matter if a play on is happening. A personal fuol during a loose ball is an immediate wistle. You can't have a personal foul with a loose ball and allow play to continue as far as I know.

First of all, welcome aboard! We're always glad to see new people ready to jump into our discussions.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that a personal foul during any loose ball should be an immediate whistle. However, we're now into one of those discussions we get from time to time about whether the rules really say what we think they say, and, frankly, I don't think anyone yet has made an ironclad case using just the rules--not common practice--that proves that this is the right thing to do. (And some people just roll their eyes when we have these discussions, but I think they're important so we can pinpoint weak spots in the rules to try to get them fixed.)

Another example of this sort of thing: A1 scores a goal, then both teams delay the game after the faceoff. What do you do?

Most officials--myself included--will warn the benches and then have a faceoff. But following the letter of the law, you should award the ball by A.P.

Again, welcome, and we hope you enjoy the forum!

[laxref39]

For the purpose of discussion with regards to A.R. 50 that specific situation pertains to a man down situation at the end of a period. I believe the intent is to not punish the offended team who would gain possesion and then start the next period with the ball. In the original sequence as described, the ball is loose, personal foul commited flag ends play. Otherwise if a play on designated possesion at all times, we would have to give the :30 for the loose ball push as described in other posts! That being said an ar on this subject would be nice.

[rilax]

We're having to work too hard to justify this by the rules. Personally, I think they just forgot to say it.

BTW, a play on "signifies" possession, it does not "equal" possession. Think about this:

A1 pushes B1 during a loose ball, play on. Then A2 pushes B2 while the ball is still loose. Do you send B2 off for 30 seconds because team A "had possession" due to the play on, even though the ball is still loose.
Ok that makes sense.

[surveyor12]

But the play on technique says "if the player comits a loose ball technical foul or crease violation...".

it goes on to say the play on shall have elaspsed in the case of a LBTF when the offended team commits a violation or penalty.

as I see it a personal foul is not included here, so it is excluded from the play on technique rule in the federation rulebook. I don't think this is not explicity stated, because if they wanted personal fouls to allow a play on, they would have written it that way. Why would they cut it short at saying "loose ball technical foul" and not include "loose ball personal foul"?

[laxref39]

But the play on technique says "if the player comits a loose ball technical foul or crease violation...".

it goes on to say the play on shall have elaspsed in the case of a LBTF when the offended team commits a violation or penalty.

as I see it a personal foul is not included here, so it is excluded from the play on technique rule in the federation rulebook. I don't think this is not explicity stated, because if they wanted personal fouls to allow a play on, they would have written it that way. Why would they cut it short at saying "loose ball technical foul" and not include "loose ball personal foul"?
Coaches write the rules and don't look at things from how it affects the calling of the gam per se. It is already in the rules when the ball is loose in the case of a personal foul blow the play dead!

[LaxRef]

Coaches write the rules and don't look at things from how it affects the calling of the gam per se. It is already in the rules when the ball is loose in the case of a personal foul blow the play dead!

And yet, it says:

The play-on shall have elapsed and the official shall cease to signal when:
a. In the case of a loose-ball technical-foul, the offended team gains possession.
b. In the case of a crease violation in which the goalkeeper has possession, the offended team maintains possession of the ball and continues to play on.
c. When the offended team commits a violation or penalty.

Note the conspicuous absence of "d. The offending team commits a personal foul."

Again, I think you should blow it dead whenever there's a loose ball personal, play on or not. But I'm not convinced that the rules are clear on this.

[surveyor12]

That's because at the end of the personal foul section, it says "PENALTY: The ball shall be given to the team fouled." Plus, the rules state the play on works only for technical fouls, not personal fouls.

What else can they say? Doesn't tht cover it? But it could be a bit clearer i suppose.

[LaxRef]

That's because at the end of the personal foul section, it says "PENALTY: The ball shall be given to the team fouled." Plus, the rules state the play on works only for technical fouls, not personal fouls.

What else can they say? Doesn't tht cover it? But it could be a bit clearer i suppose.


My point is that it doesn't say that a personal foul is one of the conditions for ending the play-on, so if you have a loose-ball and a play-on, followed by a personal when the ball is still loose, it's not clear which rule trumps which. That being said, there are other spots in the rulebook that are much bigger problems; I'd be remiss here if I didn't say "7.6" :chuckle:.

[surveyor12]

oohhh, simultaneous fouls. no good. :hot: