Foul behind the play

[LaxRef]

As the trail in a 3 man game and with the ball already over midfield, I see A1 turn to run up the field and then see B1 slash him in the back of the head. I throw the flag, get a better angle so I can get B1's number, watch for a second to make sure there's no retaliation. . . and then figure out that Team B was the clearing team and has had the ball for about 5 seconds after the flag was thrown! Whoops!

I guess that's better than killing the play when you aren't supposed to, although I'm sure I would have caught hell from the team B coach if team B had scored on the play before I figured out what was going on. I hate when stuff like that happens!

Anyway, I gave B1 a 1:00 USC since it wasn't a super-hard slash.

[3rdPersonPlural]

You've touched on the hardest part of officiating, LR. At least for me.

The game moves so fast that the decision to whistle, flag, or play on is always a frantic one in the pregnant pause between infraction and signal. At least for me.

I can recall one time that I was trail, already snugged down onto the box, and a chorus of 'He's offside!!' arose behind me. I looked over and scanned the midfield line for an errant toe or something, confident that it had been long since withdrawn.

Slowly it dawns on me that a first year defenseman had become so engrossed in the efforts of his teammates that he had wandered a good 15 feet over the midfield line.

Whistle, right?

I glance down to the play and there's a loose ball right in front of me. Now if I blow the whistle, I might disadvantage the other team. So I call a play on. Defense picks up the ball and there's enough going on that it's a good 10 seconds before I realize the the 'He's offside!' is still being repeated, with a good deal less patience than before.

I glance over, and the pole has not moved. I turn back and blow my whistle just as the ball goes out of bounds. I hadn't seen who had last touched it or what, so I award the ball at midfield to the team without a wandering d-man, explain to the baffled coaches that this was my attempt at fixing a problem that no ref has ever prepared for nor should have to figure out on the fly.

The coach without the nomadic pole complained that I should have 'Called It' as soon as I saw it. I thought that he indeed deserved and explanation: "Possession changed a half dozen times between the time I saw the guy and when the ball went out. The offsides player was not a factor in the play and a wrong call might have been. You get a free clear out of it. Chill."

The bottom line is that I looked like a dork.

[LaxRef]

The bottom line is that I looked like a dork.

We should start a club.

One of the hardest things about officiating is that the people criticizing you are just looking at one thing. They aren't trying to juggle the 15-20 responsibilities you're juggling, of which the one they're so worried about is just one.

Often, when someone says, "How could you not see that?!" I'll respond, "I'm not even supposed to be looking there. I'm supposed to be watching the goal" or whatever. Sometimes you can see a little light go on as they realize that not every official is watching the ball. But that doesn't happen very often.

[goalieskcickay]

Sounds like you handled it decently, I mean my coach would be screaming at you, but that would mean you probably did the right thing. :banghead: :thinking: He argues all calls, the correct ones especially.

(Directed at 3pp)

[eme]

"Coach, when I realized Blue was offsides the ball was loose...it's white ball at center X." (Fed. rules here)

[gfink]

I believe there is always time to make the right call. No need to be in a rush. The other night we were working 3-person(like that) in a playoff game. I was the single side official and knew that white was offside. I just could not find the 7th man over the line. White took a shot, missed the cage and went out of bounds with white retaining possesion. Turns out my 7th man was standing behind my partner. Dead ball offsides? Try and sell that one. I made the call because it was the right thing to do. Late or not. White coach knew he was offside longer than i did so it was worth a laugh. We get ramped up as much as the players do. It is when we slow things down that they become much clearer.

[shrekjr]

Had one in a college club tournament game last fall where I was being evaluated. Defense Coach is yelling "offside" as I'm looking at the play so I quickly start counting players in the attack half of the field. All good. I look back at midfield and sure enough, there are only 2 players standing at the line. I glance back and don't see anyone between them and the goalie. Whistle blows, I call "offside white" and announce the turnover. Then the coach of the team I called offside says, "we're not offside, look behind the goal, he's back there talking to his girlfriend". And he was! So I give the ball back to white outside the box and wait for my postgame verbal lashing from the evaluator. Fortunately, he was quite kind and said no official in that situation would be expected to look BEHIND the goal on the other end of the field from where the ball is. While I was happy I didn't get ripped for blowing it, I've learned to look at the entire field before making the offside call. It may take a few seconds more, but it eliminates the "looking like a dork" factor.

[Laxref_36]

Had one in a college club tournament game last fall where I was being evaluated. Defense Coach is yelling "offside" as I'm looking at the play so I quickly start counting players in the attack half of the field. All good. I look back at midfield and sure enough, there are only 2 players standing at the line. I glance back and don't see anyone between them and the goalie. Whistle blows, I call "offside white" and announce the turnover. Then the coach of the team I called offside says, "we're not offside, look behind the goal, he's back there talking to his girlfriend". And he was! So I give the ball back to white outside the box and wait for my postgame verbal lashing from the evaluator. Fortunately, he was quite kind and said no official in that situation would be expected to look BEHIND the goal on the other end of the field from where the ball is. While I was happy I didn't get ripped for blowing it, I've learned to look at the entire field before making the offside call. It may take a few seconds more, but it eliminates the "looking like a dork" factor.

Shrekjr,

You've touched on a sore subject of mine. The offsides call is one where I've let my feelings be known before. I know the rule speaks specifically about having three back offensively and four back on the defensive side. What advantage or disadvantage is there to a team that is a man down on the opposite side (ball in the other half) of the field? Please don't quote me the rule. I know it only too well. We've talked about advantage vs disadvantage in this forum before. My question is does that (TPOAD), not get applied in this particular case?

Thanks,

Laxref_36

ps. Anyone who has ever reffed this great game has at one time or another looked like a dork. Same goes for coachs and players, although its not as obvious, since the whistle stops play.

[LaxRef]

You've touched on a sore subject of mine. The offsides call is one where I've let my feelings be known before. I know the rule speaks specifically about having three back offensively and four back on the defensive side. What advantage or disadvantage is there to a team that is a man down on the opposite side (ball in the other half) of the field? Please don't quote me the rule. I know it only too well. We've talked about advantage vs disadvantage in this forum before. My question is does that (TPOAD), not get applied in this particular case? .


To me, it's not a matter of TPOAD as much as it is protecting the officials. I think I have a right to be able to determine offsides by counting the number of players back. If I only see two attack or three defenders (including the goalie), I don't think it should then be my responsibility to count to make sure there aren't 7 or 8 guys at the other end. I have a hard enough time finding the 3 or 4 guys and counting them!

OTOH, if you know that the reason they're short is that they're late subbing, you can probably cut them some slack, but now you have to see if that sub gets involved in the play when he comes on. And in NFHS, thats a (releasable) USC foul, which is a lot worse than the offsides.

[laxref39]

"Coach, when I realized Blue was offsides the ball was loose...it's white ball at center X." (Fed. rules here)
You nailed that one! As for laxref situation, I agree you take that moment to make sure about the possesion. On the loose ball infraction blow it dead right away, likelyhood is they didn't have a fast break situation and the right team still gets the ball!

[Laxref_36]

To me, it's not a matter of TPOAD as much as it is protecting the officials. I think I have a right to be able to determine offsides by counting the number of players back. If I only see two attack or three defenders (including the goalie), I don't think it should then be my responsibility to count to make sure there aren't 7 or 8 guys at the other end. I have a hard enough time finding the 3 or 4 guys and counting them!

OTOH, if you know that the reason they're short is that they're late subbing, you can probably cut them some slack, but now you have to see if that sub gets involved in the play when he comes on. And in NFHS, thats a (releasable) USC foul, which is a lot worse than the offsides.

I would not call that unsportmanlike conduct. A better choice might be illegal procedure for delayed substitution. If the player came in and delivered a legal but hard body check and used the box to hide in to suprise the opponent, I would go USC. If its just to play a loose ball, or catch a clearing pass you'd have a different call. Clearly the punishment has to fit the crime.

[LaxRef]

I would not call that unsportmanlike conduct. A better choice might be illegal procedure for delayed substitution. If the player came in and delivered a legal but hard body check and used the box to hide in to suprise the opponent, I would go USC. If its just to play a loose ball, or catch a clearing pass you'd have a different call. Clearly the punishment has to fit the crime.


Nope, under NFHS rules it's a USC:

SECTION 9 UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT
No player, substitute, nonplaying member of a squad, coach or anyone officially connected with a competing team shall:
ART. 1 . . . Enter into an argument with an official as to any decision that has been made or in any way attempt to influence the decision of an official.
ART. 2 . . . Use threatening, profane or obscene language or gestures at any time during the game.
ART. 3 . . . Bait, taunt, call undue attention to oneself, or any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials. PENALTY: These are one- to three-minute nonreleasable penalties in all cases.
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.
ART. 4 . . . Repeatedly commit the same technical foul.
ART. 5 . . . As a player, deliberately fail to return immediately to the field after leaving the field of play while legally in the game.
ART. 6 . . . As a substitute, deliberately fail to comply with the rules for entering the field of play.

NCAA article f, the equivalent of Art. 6 in NFHS, got converted to IP about 2 or 3 years ago, so in NCAA it's illegal procedure (that whole "silent play-on" thing comes into play). In NFHS, it's still a (releasable) USC unless I'm missing something.

[OGND]

... but now you have to see if that sub gets involved in the play when he comes on. And in NFHS, thats a (releasable) USC foul, which is a lot worse than the offsides.
ART. 6 . . . As a substitute, deliberately fail to comply with the rules for entering the field of play.
Forgive me LaxRef-- I don't think I've ever found one of your posts that I disagreed with. But isn't deliberately the key word there? Just because he got involved in the play when he came on the field late, does that mean the delay was deliberate?

I feel more comfortable with part of LR36's interpretation here- a player who hides in the box and deliberately delays his entry to gain an advantage should get the USC. For simply entering the field late and participating in play, I'd prefer the IP for illegal sub.

[LaxRef]

I feel more comfortable with part of LR36's interpretation here- a player who hides in the box and deliberately delays his entry to gain an advantage should get the USC. For simply entering the field late and participating in play, I'd prefer the IP for illegal sub.


No, you're right. I checked, and there is an IP for illegal sub, which is different from the USC for deliberate illegal sub. My bad.

[laxref39]

To lax36 original thought about wether the TPOAD makes sense, the team has the right number of guys in the offensive half and are settling into the offense and they are one short on the defensive half (late substitution) I'm going to try and avoid seeing a violation, I may even say let's go guys get that substitution finished if I'm not already at the 25-30 yard line!

[surveyor12]

No, you're right. I checked, and there is an IP for illegal sub, which is different from the USC for deliberate illegal sub. My bad.

...any violation for the rules of substitution...

deliberate is the key; USC in that case.