Faceoff discussion with players

[laxfan25]

I'm doing a big game HS tomorrow, and want to treat it as much like a higher-level game as possible. In a lot of my HS games faceoffs, I will coach the players out of violations in order to allow them to actually face off. By that, I mean telling them to get their heads/knees out of the neutral zone, adjusting their sticks so the heads are even, get their hand off the plastic.
I don't want to do that tomorrow. These will be the top two teams in the state, so they should be very experienced.
My thought though was to ask the coaches to send their faceoff guys over during the warmups and explain exactly what we want on the faceoffs so there are no questions, and tell them there will be no warnings. We'll call them "down", and if anyone is in violation, stand 'em up and award possession.
Thoughts?
I should also point out that as the players come in I give a quick, short verbal checklist - "Heads even, watch the neutral zone.." - Set. I just don't want to be adjusting heads and telling someone if they are violation, just call it.

[LaxRef]

I tend to go over what I want before the first faceoff, but of course those guys won't take every face in the game. I'm actually moving toward trying to call fewer fouls, but in principle I agree that they should be able to do it right.

[laxfan25]

I tend to go over what I want before the first faceoff, but of course those guys won't take every face in the game. I'm actually moving toward trying to call fewer fouls, but in principle I agree that they should be able to do it right.
That's why I want to do it in the pre-game warmups, so I can have the coaches send over the two or three guys that normally take the faceoffs. It would be a short and sweet discussion, with the hopeful result being that we will have fewer violations without the need to touch the sticks or do much more than call them down.

[blindbill]

My experience in other sports: Anything I, as the referee, can do to make the game go smoother, make them "look good" and keep ME out of the game, seems to be greatly appreciated by all concerned, both coaches and players, and (I think) increases their respect for you as an individual and referees in general.

[LaxRef]

The other thing I've done is to tell each coach before the game that I've called a lot of neutral zone infractions this season and that they should make sure their players understand that or they'll be a lot in this game, too.

[Snake~eyes]

I personally would not say anything, if they are the top teams in the state their shouldn't be too many faceoff violations. But that's just me.

[LaxRef]

What bugs me is that a lot of other officials call nothing on the faceoff, so when you work you get kids who've never been told they have illegal positions and they think you're a jerk for calling it.

[cslaxplaya11]

i kno a kid who has almost mastered "the counter" on the face off and he wins with it every time, and one kid i know beats hin because he showed the other kid how to do it

[Snake~eyes]

What bugs me is that a lot of other officials call nothing on the faceoff, so when you work you get kids who've never been told they have illegal positions and they think you're a jerk for calling it.
Well a lot of officials aren't properly taught how to conduct a faceoff and how to spot all the violations. There are a good amount of things to look for on the faceoff.

[surveyor12]

Well a lot of officials aren't properly taught how to conduct a faceoff and how to spot all the violations. There are a good amount of things to look for on the faceoff.

Can you list your top five infractions please?

[pboyd]

Good question. My gut tells me you need to continue to conduct FO's like you have been doing all season. We want to FO and we don't want to ignore FO violations just because this is the finals. Do your normal thing - its too late in the season to change your procedures. I used variations of FO "coaching" throughout the season but essentially phased it out by mid-season. When I had a "new" team - I brought back my version of a FO "clinic" for the new team but was careful to include representatives from both teams. We shouldn't even be having this discussion if we were more consistent in out training and application. Good luck - do the right thing - FO within the Rules.

[LaxRef]

Can you list your top five infractions please?

Neutral zone-some body part (hand, head, knee, shoulder, foot, elbow, hip) in the neutral zone defined by the heads of the crosses.

Head leaning toward or away from the ball

Stick not parallel to the midline

One hand off ground

Hand not wrapped around crosse.

(These are position infractions; moving after "set" is certainly one of the top 5 faceoff infractions, along with maybe kicking the crosse.)

[laxfan25]

That is certainly my plan, to do the FO w/in the rules. I just feel by telling them beforehand what we will be expecting and watching for that we will be able to have lot of faceoffs vs a lot of violations. I'll let you know how it goes!

[surveyor12]

Neutral zone-some body part (hand, head, knee, shoulder, foot, elbow, hip) in the neutral zone defined by the heads of the crosses.

Head leaning toward or away from the ball

Stick not parallel to the midline

One hand off ground

Hand not wrapped around crosse.

(These are position infractions; moving after "set" is certainly one of the top 5 faceoff infractions, along with maybe kicking the crosse.)

Why is a head leaning away from the ball, and to the left of the crosse's throat, illegal?

[LaxRef]

Why is a head leaning away from the ball, and to the left of the crosse's throat, illegal?

The official shall make certain that the reverse surfaces of the crosses match evenly and are perpendicular to the ground.

Interestingly, the bold section is not in the NFHS rulebook, but I've always seen it enforced.

I don't know what you mean by "and to the left of the crosse's throat" here.

[Snake~eyes]

Why is a head leaning away from the ball, and to the left of the crosse's throat, illegal?
I thought when he said head he meant human head and I was confused..oh well

My top 5:

1. Moving after set
2. In the neutral zone (most of the time its the foot)
3. Hand on plastic
4. Hand off the ground
5. Sticks not paralell to midfield

[gfink]

i Don't coach the face-off players at this point in the season. They are seasoned enough at this point. What i tell them before i put thiem down is "Lets have a good set". Once i put them down i say nothing other that set. If a player is in violation i will give the procedure call, then tell them what was wrong. Leaning head, hands over the line... I do not call every violation on faceoffs. Things like both players heads leaning slightly(not grossly), both players with a nuetral zone violation... If there is no advantaged gained i just let them work it out.

[laxfan25]

What bugs me is that a lot of other officials call nothing on the faceoff, so when you work you get kids who've never been told they have illegal positions and they think you're a jerk for calling it.
I agree, and unfortunately I think it happens a LOT at the higher levels. Things have therefore gotten so out of control on faceoffs that a lot of the new rules stuff revolves around cleaning up the faceoffs. If the refs would take the time to do a faceoff right things would be a lot easier all around. The biggest violation I saw in my D3 games this year were the faceoff guys both crowding their heads into the neutral zone. I don't think this would be happening if all the refs were calling it. In our pregame we said if they're both in the zone, pick one who's a little further in and bang 'em. Of course tehn you get that p*ssed-off look from the middies, but eventually they moved back to legal.
It seemed like at the championships, even with a year-long harping on the faceoff issue, there were still challenges around getting the players to set legally.

[LaxRef]

Technically, if you follow the rules exactly, simultaneous faceoff violations are supposed to award the ball by AP, not by who's leaning more. My practice--since no one follows the rules and awards by AP--is to stand them up, tell them what to fix, and send them down again. Usually only one of them is screwing something up at that point, and sometimes they both have it right!

[gfink]

You're right. But again if they are both(not grossly) in violation of faceoff positioning and noone is gaining an advantage i just face them off. I will say one thing however. If i am the referee in the game, this is how i want the crew to administor the faceoff. If i am not, then i do what the referee at the time wants. And sometimes i do exactly what you have said because that is what the crew is doing on that game. I think that as long as ther are not 3 different faceoff standards in one game then the players will adjust. Let me as this question. How many times, in a game do you start calling faceoff violations and your partners don't pick you up on it. Feels like your out on an island, does it not?

[surveyor12]

Interestingly, the bold section is not in the NFHS rulebook, but I've always seen it enforced.

I don't know what you mean by "and to the left of the crosse's throat" here.

sorry, i though you meant the player's head, not the stick head.

[surveyor12]

Where is neutral zone defined in the rulebook? What is YOUR definition?

[LaxRef]

Where is neutral zone defined in the rulebook? What is YOUR definition?

It's not. But the rules say:

Each player must be positioned so his entire body is to the left of the throat of his crosse.

That means no body part of either player can invade the imaginary strip defined by the heads of the crosses; a lot of people refer to this as the neutral zone, because that's easier than saying "Player A1's foot was to the right of the throat of his crosse!"

[shrekjr]

Yeah, what everyone else said. I do like the idea of preventive officiating and having a quick chat before the game. One of our more experienced referees did that in a high school playoff game I was working this year and I really liked it. He told both coaches when we met them that as soon the coaches meetings were finished, he would like to speak with any potential faceoff players the coach thought might be playing in the game that night. I think we still had 2-3 procedure calls during the night, but I was surprised how successful the pre-game discussion with the players was. It gave everyone the opportunity to ask questions and by the time the meeting was through, there was no doubt what would be expected during a faceoff.

[laxfan25]

well we had the big game last night, and I was umpire. I told the Referee what I was thinking and he decided against it. His thought - "if they're legal we're going, if they're both violating equally, we're going, since no-one has an advantage". I only called one violation the whole night, and that is when one of the guys actually lined up left of the head and the other guy didn't. Other than that, both players were in the neutral zone on every other faceoff I did. This was even after telling them as they came in - "watch the neutral zone - get the heads even". Granted we had no delays on faceoffs, but it bugs me a little. This has been such a point of emphasis, if we don't enforce it the players will never get back to legal.
It's no wonder the D1 games are such a mess on the faceoffs, I think this attitude is probably predominant. In my little region we actually do it by the book and all the teams play that way so we don't have issues. I like it better that way!

[LaxRef]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the "but everyone does it illegally, so we'll just let them" philosophy.

On a similar note, they might as well legalize the cross-check hold. :chuckle:

[Snake~eyes]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the "but everyone does it illegally, so we'll just let them" philosophy.

On a similar note, they might as well legalize the cross-check hold. :chuckle:
I agree, the fact that your referee said that is just plain wrong. If two guys are lining up illegal, stand them up tell them they're both illegal and why, then start over again.

Next time I work with your R and a fight breaks out, I wouldn't flag anyone. When he asks why I didn't do anythng I would simply state no advatange was gained. He said it, if the'yre both violating we're going! :chuckle:

[laxfan25]

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the ref who was the lead, I think he's the best in the state. None of the coaches or players complained, and the faceoffs went off without delay. I just think we need to start getting back to legal positions, and the state championship was probably not the place to start cracking down if they've been going that way all year.
It didn't affect the game. What DID affect it was Team A was ahead 10 -6 with about 8 minutes left in the 4th, and had been the better team all game against their undefeated arch rival. Team A1 middie gets called for a push with poss. on a faceoff. In the penalty box his coach tells him, you've got to watch that - stay off the back. A1, obviously frustrated, says "F You!". We had a CBO on the game who adds 1 min USC. During the penalty, Team B puts in a couple, and takes another shot. B1 is ahead of A2 at the end line, and A2 also pushes him down and falls on top after the ball was out. The lead properly gives it to B1. A2 pops up and says to the lead - "you suck, you suck, you suck!". My partner afterward says "I might have taken one you suck, but not three!". Another USC, Team A is now two down and Team B ends up scoring 2 more to tie. They eventually win 12 -11. Unbelieveable meltdown by a team that had led the whole game, on two of the stupidest USC's I've ever experienced.
Game ends and we're jogging off. Team A's goalie comes streaming over, ready to start a fight with the crew! Echoing B2 comments about the ref crew inhaling. I think he might have been better served talking to his teammates.

[shrekjr]

I'm a firm believer that a team is USUALLY a reflection of its coach. In this case, it sounds like the right team won.

As for the cross-check hold, I agree it is probably the most common foul that does not get called. However, I think part of that is because it really isn't stressed or taught in our official's training classes so our new guys aren't even looking for it!

Of course, down here where football is king, we're used to the "let 'em play" philosophy and since about 25% of our new lacrosse officials are also long time football referees, that probably contributes to not making the call as well as the more physical style of play. And just for the record, I'm one of those football guys who converted, but I'd much work a good lacrosse game today than a football game.

[gfink]

Everyone has their pet peeves. Laxfan25, I agree with most of what you have to say about face-off violation enforcement. But, no man is an island. Again, what the referee decides on enforcement should go for the crew. We all have things in the game that we pick to enforce and then choose to look at other things. If anyone here denies that fact, i simply cannot agree. How about the defensive interference in front of the net. I can call it every play in every game if i apply the black and white rule of enforcement. But we don't all the time. If you are the Ref in the game i am working, then i use your enforcement standards for technical stuff. Just my two cents.

[LaxRef]

As for the cross-check hold, I agree it is probably the most common foul that does not get called. However, I think part of that is because it really isn't stressed or taught in our official's training classes so our new guys aren't even looking for it!.

It's not just the new guys. Every year, we get a memo complaining about how the DI officials aren't calling cross-check holds and how they aren't enforcing the faceoff rules.

[jktlax]

Instruct them to what your crew expects on the"first" face off, after that you will have to call it if the are in the "zone", they will get the message.