Politics - Flag Burning Amendment

[Thrillhouse]

GAMiddie started a thread (http://www.lacrosseforums.com/showthread.php?t=22651) for this yesterday, but we got a little sidetracked with smoking in public and I had to admit I was wrong. (Savor the flavor; it’s not going to happen often.)
Nonetheless, the issue deserves a fresh start.

Should we pass an amendment to the Constitution making it possible to outlaw the desecration of the American flag?

[Thrillhouse]

As I wrote yesterday, I’m against an amendment or any law that would make burning an American flag in protest illegal.

First, let me say that I’m very proud to be an American and I proudly display the flag where I live. It’s a symbol of not only the freedom our country stands for but a symbol for freedom all over the world.

Unfortunately, there are people in the world who don’t believe in the freedoms that we have. Be it disagreeing with our economic policies to intolerance for our right to worship or not worship the way we please, there are people in the world who feel that general people cannot be trusted to live their lives the way they want. To protest our rights, they may choose to display their feelings by desecrating a symbol of our freedom.

This act is meant to provoke us, as it well should. However we need to recognize that in doing so they are testing the very freedom we hold so dear. The idea that we need to pass laws that would prevent people from protesting the way they please, to protect the symbol of our freedom, is absurd. If we were to pass a law restricting the way people can protest, no matter how repugnant we find their methods, we would be rescinding the very freedom they are protesting. In other words, they would win.

The idea that our country is founded on is not something that can be burned. I suggest we let them do whatever they want and trust that reasonable people will see their misguided protests for what they are and walk away. Our Constitution gives us the right to protest however we want, but it doesn’t guarantee that anyone will pay attention.

[stegmakk]

I understand those in teh military and their families see the flag as a sacred symbol. Of all teh sacrafices to protect our lives, land, and rights. That is all fine and good. But it is just a symbol.
By creating this law it would be stepping on the rights that it sybolizes. I'd rather have my rights protected than a symbol of the rights I once had.

[HdGLaxWarrior]

I voted no because it is basically freedom of speech. It's a symbol as steg pointed out. And you cant trample all over the rights it symbolizes.

[AZReDWiNG]

The sad thing is, it'll probably pass now.

So much for freedom of speech.

FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH, GUYZ!!!11

[Thrillhouse]

The sad thing is, it'll probably pass now.

So much for freedom of speech.

FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH, GUYZ!!!11


The AP (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-flag23.html) did a head count and there isn't enough votes to pass it, unless a few people change thier minds.

However, Biden and Clinton are going to vote against something that 75% of the population thinks should pass. While I don't agree with most Republicans on this issue, it's an interesting political move.

[LCNlaxman]

I personally say no because then it's an immediate contradiction of the first amendment's "Freedom of Speech"

[LymanLax28]

I understand those in teh military and their families see the flag as a sacred symbol. Of all teh sacrafices to protect our lives, land, and rights. That is all fine and good. But it is just a symbol.
By creating this law it would be stepping on the rights that it sybolizes. I'd rather have my rights protected than a symbol of the rights I once had.
I agree completely.

[zak]

i personally am against it, if you want to burn a flag, move to canada. Its just wrong.

[ColtsLax]

how does it affect your freedom of speech, it only outlaws the physical act of burning not your right to talk about it. No where in the BOR does it say that we have the right to desecrate our nations symbol. I feel that it is vandalism. Saying that it infringes on our freedom of speech is like saying the BOR says the Gov cant send money to Catholic schools because of a supposed "separation of Church and State"

[Garor]

Freedom of speech is judged on a few things: the harm the speaker is doing and the message the speaker is protraying.

The government believes in a "market place of ideas". Meaning that we as citizens are allowed, to some extent, receive information of any kind. It is believed that we will decide what we believe is correct. This theory is founded in the belief that the average citizen will agree with what the government believes is wrong.

I want to know what burning the American flag does to us. Are we starting riots because someone ignited the flag? Is the government being overthrown? NO. The average American citizen will reject that person's ideas. I probably will. I see it as an uncreative call for attention, but I respect their right to do it. I believe if the government bans this, they will want to ban other freedoms we have.

[AZReDWiNG]

"I don't agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it."

This very quote represents the essence of Deism, of which our Founding Fathers adhered to, and perhaps the very existence of this country.

Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed of us today.

[Thrillhouse]

Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed of us today.

I don’t believe there is any historical data that would suggest that our founding fathers had a collective opinion on the matter, however I would guess that if the matter was brought up, there would be a disagreement among the men as there was with most of the issues they faced.

Also, if you walked up to any of our Founding Fathers and burned Old Glory in front of them, they would probably beat the living crap out of you.

I would think they would welcome the debate we are having and be proud that we’ve maintained their democratic ideals for over 200 years. I would seriously doubt they expected perfection.

[AZReDWiNG]

I don’t believe there is any historical data that would suggest that our founding fathers had a collective opinion on the matter, however I would guess that if the matter was brought up, there would be a disagreement among the men as there was with most of the issues they faced.

Also, if you walked up to any of our Founding Fathers and burned Old Glory in front of them, they would probably beat the living crap out of you.

I would think they would welcome the debate we are having and be proud that we’ve maintained their democratic ideals for over 200 years. I would seriously doubt they expected perfection.

What I meant was, our Founding Fathers, or at least Anti-Federalists, fought for the very right to burn the flag (see Bill of Rights that anti-Feds forced into the Constitution). They would be ashamed that we are sequestering that right in the name of "freedom".

[Thrillhouse]

What I meant was, our Founding Fathers, or at least Anti-Federalists, fought for the very right to burn the flag (see Bill of Rights that anti-Feds forced into the Constitution). They would be ashamed that we are sequestering that right in the name of "freedom".

Well, I guess I was wrong. Could you post a source so I could read more about the Anti-Federalists specific views on flag burning? I'm surprised that the media hasn't made a big deal about their well known and documented views, seeing how this is such a hot issue right now.

I'll be waiting...

[AZReDWiNG]

Well, I guess I was wrong. Could you post a source so I could read more about the Anti-Federalists specific views on flag burning? I'm surprised that the media hasn't made a big deal about their well known and documented views, seeing how this is such a hot issue right now.

I'll be waiting...

...

Okay.

What I meant was, the anti-Federalists fought for such rights like freedom of speech and expression. Last I checked, flag burning is an expression of anger at the administration. To ban burning the flag means to put restrictions on freedom of expression, the very thing that those like Jefferson and Paine fought for.

Just like the flag is a symbol and burning the flag is a symbol, banning flag burning is also a symbol. It symbolizes that the United States of America does not condone or warrent expression that conflicts with the views of the administration of the United States of America.

[Thrillhouse]

...
Just like the flag is a symbol and burning the flag is a symbol, banning flag burning is also a symbol. It symbolizes that the United States of America does not condone or warrent expression that conflicts with the views of the administration of the United States of America.

I agree with you on that, but since the pro flag burning ban people are a little shy, let me play devils advocate...

Shouldn’t we put limits on what people can say if what they are saying is so hurtful that the harm it would cause would out-weight the benefit of free speech? If the KKK holds a rally and antagonizes black people by calling them the N-word and a riot breaks out, wouldn’t it be better for our society to stop the KKK from doing such hateful things, even if it is free speech? If we can agree that there are certain actions that we don’t approve of and an overwhelming majority of our citizens are willing to give up a right for the greater good, why shouldn’t we be allowed to do it?

[AZReDWiNG]

I agree with you on that, but since the pro flag burning ban people are a little shy, let me play devils advocate...

Shouldn’t we put limits on what people can say if what they are saying is so hurtful that the harm it would cause would out-weight the benefit of free speech? If the KKK holds a rally and antagonizes black people by calling them the N-word and a riot breaks out, wouldn’t it be better for our society to stop the KKK from doing such hateful things, even if it is free speech? If we can agree that there are certain actions that we don’t approve of and an overwhelming majority of our citizens are willing to give up a right for the greater good, why shouldn’t we be allowed to do it?

Thomas Jefferson once said, "Democracy is where 51% of the population exact complete control over the other 49."

Regardless of how large the majority is that wants to supress free speech, the fact remains that doing so would harm the minority. Okay, the KKK is making dumb speeches about blacks. Fine. Let them. But then make sure that they do not violate the rights over others because of their speeches: once the speeches incite riot, then it is time to squelch them. But the speakers must be allowed to speak, at least until they incite riot. In this case, it infringes upon the rights of others.

[Falconsmikevick]

if wanna burn our flag get out of our country....

[D4lax]

To take away burning the flag would be a way of taking away the right of many to protest things they dont agree with. that obviously doesnt bother the republicans judging by some of the bills they have tried to pass recently. If they take away burning of the flag where do they draw the line of respectful burning of the flag.

[AZReDWiNG]

if wanna burn our flag get out of our country....

If you want to take my rights away from "the land of the free", it is you who should get out of our country.

[roughrider]

in the republicans mad rush of patriotism they forgot to protect the meaning behind the flag as well as the flag itself.